Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

Error in the OOB, will be corrected in the next revision after WinSPMBT v 5.6 is released.

Thanks for pointing it out!

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

While playing the USMC during the battle of Hue 1968, I noticed the lack of M60 LMGs. What appeared to be in their place in most cases was the weapon number 24 "M16A1 AR" or 26 "3x M16A1 AR". Is this supposed to be so and what is the weapon number 24/26 supposed to represent?

I also noticed relatively low morale levels compared to later periods. I wonder what's the reasoning behind this.

The USMC never regularly used the M60 as a LMG the way the US Army did.

With the loss of the BAR in the late 50's (tho many units did continue to use them till about 65ish) the official USMC policy was for each fire-team Automatic Rifleman (the person in a team "authorized" to fire in full auto mode) to be issued a bipod for the M14/M16 and carry some extra magazines.
With the advent of the M249 SAW they were issued them as an "LMG".

So yes, weapons "M16A1 AR" and "3x M16A1 AR" represent the use of M16's as "Automatic Rifles".

Not to say the M60 isn't used as an LMG regularly, but WinSPMBT code can't deal with an MMG unit becoming an LMG unit when in motion and back to an MMG when stationary.

As to morale ... Vietnam was a rather unpopular war and I believe (and can't personally verify) there is a hard-coded reduction to morale for US (and possibly other) OOBs during the late Vietnam period. This probably lasts till about the Regan Era (ca. 1981) when it is returned to "normal".

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

Yes it's hard coded and why some nations "elites" might have +10 modifiers and another nation might have +15..it's to make their "elites" equal.

Morale is 10 points higher in the 90's than in the 60's for USMC and there is a 5 point increase in experience during the same time period. Changes are made by decade in MBT, in WW2 it's by decade up to the start of WW2 then it's by year.

Don

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

((Hurriedly scribbles herself some notes))

Thank you Don.

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

In response to a couple questions I've had I'll post here for everyone to "enjoy".

The basic Rifle Company TO&E used by the USMC was adopted on May 1st, 1945 (called the "G Series" TO&E).

Fireteam
1x Fireteam Leader w/rifle (Cpl)
1x Automatic Rifleman w/M249 or the new M27 (L/Cpl)
1x Grenadier w/rifle and M203 40mm GL (PFC)
1x Rifleman w/rifle and AT4 or two (Pvt)
Extra AT4's carried as needed

Offensive: 2x 2-man teams, one team advances as the other covers.
Defensive: 2x 2-man teams, 2x foxholes (1 man working/resting as the other keeps watch)

Rifle Squad
1 x Squad Leader w/rifle (Sgt)
3 x Fireteams
Normally has an MMG or SMAW attached from Weapon Platoon

Offensive: 2 teams (+SMAW) advance in assault, single/double envelopment as the 3rd (+MMGs) covers
Defensive: As Fireteam

Rifle Platoon
1x Platoon Commander w/carbine (1st or 2nd Lt)
1x Platoon Sergeant w/rifle (SSgt)
1x Platoon Guide w/rifle (Sgt) platoon supply/admin chief
1x US Navy Corpsman w/carbine (HM3) medic
Normally has 2-3 Scout/Sniper Teams from Battalion attached
Frequently one man from the platoon is detailed to act as radioman

Offensive: 2 squads advance in assault, single/double envelopment as the 3rd covers
Defensive: As Fireteam

Weapons Platoon
1x Platoon Commander w/carbine (1st or 2nd Lt)
1x Platoon Sergeant w/rifle (SSgt)
1x Platoon Guide w/rifle (Sgt) platoon supply/admin chief
1x Radioman w/rifle (Cpl)

3x MMG Sections (each with 2x MMG)
--1x Machine-gunner w/M240 (Sgt or Cpl)
--1x Assistant Gunner w/rifle (L/Cpl)
--1x Ammo Carrier w/rifle (PFC or Pvt)

3x AT Sections (each with 2x SMAW)
--1x SMAW Gunner w/SMAW & carbine (L/Cpl)
--1x Ammo Carrier w/rifle (PFC or Pvt)

3x Mortar Sections (each with 1x 60mm Mortar)
--1x Mortar-man w/M224 (Sgt or Cpl)
--1x Assistant Mortar-man w/rifle (L/Cpl)
--1x Ammo Carrier w/rifle (PFC or Pvt)
Frequently has a HMMWV attached as an ammo vehicle

Normally each Rifle Platoon has 2x MMG and 1x SMAW attached
The mortars remain under the control of the Weapons Platoon Commander

Rifle Company
1x Company Commander w/carbine (Capt)
1x Company XO w/carbine (1st Lt) often has 2nd job as Weapons Platoon Commander
1x 1st Sgt w/carbine (1st Sgt) admin chief (usually back in the rear)
1x Co Gunny w/carbine (GySgt) training/supply chief
1x Radio Section (2-3 radiomen)
1x US Navy Corpsman w/carbine (HM2) medic
3x Rifle Platoon
1x Weapons Platoon
Normally has an FO Team from Battalion 81mm Platoon attached
Normally has 2x Javelin Teams from Battalion attached
Normally has a Stinger MPAD Team from ACE attached

A Rifle Company has no organic vehicles but normally has 4 x HMMWV's (ammo, CO, 1st Sgt (supply), Utility(ambulance), plus others as needed/available/stolen)
Depending on mission a Rifle Company may have Engineer/AGL/HMG/AAV/Tank or other attachments

For all intents and purposes a USMC Rifle Company is an autonomous unit.
With the capability to call-in and direct mortars/artillery/helos/air support as required.
Most military services create companies for specific tasks (infantry/armor/air mobile). The USMC assigns tasks to companies. Everyone is trained, and practices infantry patrolling, mech assault, helo assault, and urban combat. At least once a year they spend a week or so doing rubber boats and amphibious assault. Every couple years they do a month or so of mountain warfare and cold weather/jungle/desert training; so about half of them at any given time know at least the basics, and senior people have done it often enough to be fairly proficient.

Other then when on patrol it's rare to see a fireteam/squad/platoon operating far from it's Company. But Companies often go days without anything but radio and resupply contact with their Battalion.

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

Btw, is latest version of USMC oob already in SPMBT v.6.0? If so, no need to d/l version 5.5 in previous page?

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

I don't think this has been updated for 6.0. I have been using 5.5 with 6 and haven't seen any problems.

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

Working on the update to 6.0.
Real life has intruded into my free time.
As Andy and Don frequently say ... it'll be done when it's done.

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

Update to 6.0 finally complete.

It has always bothered me that there is no provision (and, yes, I do understand why there isn't) for counter-battery air strikes in the game. So I created some special O/M artillery units named "CB Airstrike" (the formation is named "Ctr Bty Air"). Tho it can be used as cheap artillery they have very limited ammo and a small blast footprint so it's rather pointless. However if you buy one and don't allocate any fire missions it will do a reasonable job of disrupting opposition O/M artillery.

As something of a joke (given the number of times I've seen this in movies) I've added the Harrier Jump Jet as a Lt Attack Helo variant. Given their lack of armor and speed they're not the most efficient unit, but you can use them if it amuses you.

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

Thanks Suhiir:)! Must d/l it immediately...

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

OBAT013 (USMC) v 7.0 Suhiir

Updated to be pretty much compatable with v7.0.

Pretty much?

Changes to units to make them comply with game rules may cause issues (a handful of infantry units had anti-tank weaponry that was was not in weapon slot #3). And some units have such things as "106mm Flechete" and a newly added "50c GAU-21 HMG" that are not in the default OOB and could lead to problems.

I'd still say my OOB variant is probably still 99% compatable with the default OOB.

The big change you'll see is I FINALLY got reliable data on the Battalion Anti-Armor Company/Platoon for all dates from 1946 thru 2013. so pre 1975 infantry companies/platoons have had 75 and 106mm recoilless weapons added to their formations.
Now if I could get solid data on the 1946-1981 Battalion Heavy Machinegun Platoon I'd be overjoyed.
##########
Added - Predecessors to the SEALs; Scout/Raiders 1946-1948 and UDT/Raisers 1049-1062.

Added - Vertical Assault "companies" 1948-1958 (based on helo assault testing done durning that period).

Added - Amphibious Rifle Company/Platoon; a 1946-1955 formation utilizing the smaller LVT3 class amphibians.

Added - Rifle Company/Platoon (-/-); i.e. no company or battalion weapons, pure infantry squads.

Changed - Rifle Company/Platoon (-); i.e. no battalion weapons, a rifle company with ONLY it's inherent Weapons Platoon (60mm mortars, MMGs, light anti-armor) weapons.

Changed - Rifle Company/Platoon; inherent Weapons Platoon and typical Battalion additions (no 81mm mortars, as those are usually held in direct support for the entire battalion).

Changed - Rifle Company/Platoon (+); exactly the same as the Rifle Company/Platoon with the machinegun section broken down into 2x teams and platoon marksmen added in 2001-2020.

Changed - Rifle Company (+Supt); exactly the same as the Rifle Company (there are no Platoons (+Supt) due to the 10 formation limit) with ALL the cats and dogs from Battalion/Regiment. Typically used only when a company was operating totally independently (i.e. a Vietnam-era fire base).

Changed - Weapon loads on some aircraft to conform to typical load-outs based on mission (Fighter-Bomber/anti-vehicle) or COIN/anti-infantry).

Modified - The M1917 30cal HMG is now a seperate unit type so 1946-1961 formations will have the proper mix of M1917s and M2HBs.

Modified - PBR (Patrol Boat River) variants to conform to the most typical weapon sets (in reality each boat was pretty much customized to fit the crews feelings of what worked best).

Thanks to the v7.0 changes we've gotten rid of almost all the US Air Force aircraft/helos in the OOB.
Thus most "Level Bombers" are gone from the OOB, with the exception of some US Navy aircraft and A-6 Intruders that actually were used for level bombing missions (you still have the capability till 1985, after that buy US Air Force aircraft from the US Army OOB).

Removed - (i.e. marked with <Unit Name>) the M48 Roller variants; due to some clairification as to their real availibility (Thanks Basileus Ioannis!).

Removed - "Fire Team Foxholes", "Squad Entrenchemnts", and "MMG Pits"; frankly you're better off just using the entrench option for infantry units for defensive battles.

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

The bulletin board absolutely refused to let me edit the above post so here is a fix to the worst of the typos.

##########

Added - Predecessors to the SEALs; Scout/Raiders 1946-1948 and UDT/Raiders 1949-1962.

Removed - the M48 Roller variants; due to some clarification as to their real availability (Thanks Basileus Ioannis!).

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

Suhir

I have a question on this. Are the 'recon' units in the oob representing Force Recon/MARSOC or the battalion recon elements?

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

Force Recon/MARSOC

"Battalion recon elements" are nothing but normal Fire Teams/Squads/Platoons temporarily detached from their parent unit and given a recon/scouting mission. These are represented by the "Scout Teams".

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

Thanks for the info

I thought that the 4 recon battalions were a bit more 'trained up'. They have normal organization as the standard rifle platoons etc but were a little bit better. At least that is what a friend of mine who was in the 3rd recon battalion tells me :-)

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

They are, but for game purposes they're lumped in with Recon or Scouts. If you buy a Recon unit they have great vision and some special weaponry; buy a Scout unit they just about as effective (game wise) and a LOT less expensive.

Adding Division Recon to the game would just confuse non-jarheads.
Besides, those Division Recon formations get formed and disbanded, exist in one division and not in another, and vary between platoon/company/battalion size, more often then most grunts change their socks.

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

So if I wanted to mod your mod and add them.. I would just use a regular rifle platoon and add say, 5 to exp and morale???

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

It depends, if you plan to use them in the MARSOC role I'd modify Recon units with vision=15 (except snipers and FOs).
If you're using them as just "better" scouts then look at the Rifle and Recon units available for the date in question and decide if you should perhaps alter a weapon or two (it's unlikely Division Recon would have Predator ATGMs vice AT-4s or that Div Recon would carry M249's).

1986-2020:
SEAL +15/+15
Recon +8/+8
Scout +3/+3

So yeah +5/+5 sounds about right.

But, a +5/+5 modification to a unit/formation isn't really all that significant in game terms. About 1 time in 10 or 20 a unit will be pushed into the next better experience or morale category (i.e. green->trained->vet->elite).

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

With the release of the WinSPMBTv8 (2014) patch the default USMC OOB is my OOB variant set to WinSPMBT standards.

I ought to know, I built the new OOB and picklists.
I'd like to give Don and Andy a BIG THANK YOU allowing me to do so.

That said there are a few "minor but significant" areas where I personally disagree with WinSPMBT standards, thus the next v8 update to my OOB variant is strictly in VIOLATION of those standards.

The areas of disagreement are almost entirely with regard to weapons data:

1) Rifle accuracy is doubled from 1 to 2 (this does not make them twice as accurate, I don't know the exact math involved but I suspect it's on the order of 10%).
2) The default range of assault rifles is 8, I increase the M16A4 to 9.
3) Multiple independently operated automatic weapons in Rifle Squads (i.e. M1918A2 BAR (3)) are currently given no increase in accuracy but 50% higher HE Kill. I feel the accuracy per weapon used should be increased but the damage remain unchanged. Thus they will hit more frequently but no harder.
4) The default range of MMGs is 24, I increase this to 27. I also increase the accuracy of MGs in general. Any infantryman will tell you that next to artillery MGs are the terror of the battlefield, in the default game they just plain aren't.
5) .50cal AAMGs have the same default range as tripod mounted HMGs, whereas medium AAMGs have a reduced range to MMGs. Thus heavy AAMGs are reduced from 40 to 32.
6) Much like MGs Gatling type weapons are not awe inspiring thus their accuracy is increased. (I'd love to do away with separate HE and AP/Sabot ammo for them but game mechanics make this impossible).
7) The cost calculator adds about 45 points to any unit with TI vision, regardless of unit type. This is fine for a 500-point MBT, but I feel a bit excessive for a 31-point infantry squad. Thus some unit costs are manually adjusted.
8) UAVs are very expensive units due to size, EW rating, and vision. The costs of these units is manually adjusted.
9+) Other similar tweaks.

All that said I'd like to get and idea how much interest there is in my continuing to post my USMC OOB variant. As stated, the v8 upgrade IS my OOB set to WinSPMBT standards.

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

I am definitely interested. I have been overwriting the standard oob with yours since you started. If you don't publish your variant anymore I will probably manually incorporate most the list into mine anyways. I have appreciated your work and hope to see it continue.

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

Looking at the OOB what is the difference between weapon 25 and 9? They both say M16A4 ACOG.

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

Weapon #09 = Primary Infantry Weapon (used in weapon slot #1)
Weapon #25 = Secondary Infantry Weapon (used in weapon slots 2-4)

Primary Weapons get a modifier to hit based on the number of men in the unit, Secondary do not. Most OOBs use a Primary Weapon as an alternate weapon for things like ATGM teams, but because they are in weapon slot #2 (usually) they have a rather poor base accuracy (1) so they're relatively ineffective. By creating a Secondary Weapon for use in this slot the teams can be semi-useful as infantry.

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

When loading out units for a scenario, primary weapons occupy the first weapons slot from the Mobhack Unit tab, and verification of weapon status maybe obtained in the Weapons Class from the Weapons tab. Right?

Now, to load out a unit from the D-key in the Editor, it would be wise to check the Mobhack for primary/secondary weapon status, correct?

This is really good stuff Suhiir, thanks.

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

the problem is this now needs to be done for every other OOB to keep things even/fair when fighting USMC...

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

Correct, "Primary Weapons" are Weapon Class 1.

It would be prudent.

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

The USMC as a whole tends to emphasize marksmanship more then any national army (of course commando/special forces of any nation are NOT the same as their national army). And unlike most national armies everyone from infantry to cooks to radar technicians must re-qualify every year and failure to do so may well lead to a discharge.

So ... the USMC having a slight advantage over other OOB's doesn't seem unreasonable IMHO.

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

The ROK Marines have earned "warrior class" status. The Battle of of Tra Binh Dong in '67 attest to their having earned admiration from the USMC. Here is what Jones shared: "In establishing the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP), Gen James L. Jones frequently recounted his observations of Korean Marines during the Vietnam War. The fact that Republic of Korea (ROK) servicemen were skilled in the Korean martial art tae kwon do was widely known, evoking respect among allies and instilling fear in the enemy. The former Commandant recalled that his own Marines envied this skill, believing the Korean Marines were the most feared adversary on the battlefield and that North Vietnamese soldiers and Viet Cong irregulars would bypass Korean units whenever possible."(citation: LtCol James F. Durand Marine Corps Gazette
July 2005)

IMHO, and I do not differ with Suhiir, not substantially anyway, on markmanship, because truly, the warrior within does not depend on the weapon, but on his mind as echoed in the MCMAP credo: "One Mind, Any Weapon."

Let me say this, the goal as I understand of the oob's are not to make the game "even" or "fair," or ought not to be IMHOP; further, if we are striving to keep simulation in the game, then we must concede what happens in the real world, all armies are not equal either in equipment or personnel.

Lastly, I'd vote the ROKs right up there with the USMC, they stand shoulder to shoulder.

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

Which is why there are variations in the morale and experience ratings of each nation in the game and that's as far as it's going to go

Don

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

I've worked with ROK Marines a few times and VERY thoroughly believe their unofficial motto "ROK Hard" is well deserved.
I'd say in attitude and training they're easily on par with the USMC, if not a step or two ahead.

While it would certainly be possible to go thru the OOBs and modify and any all such units (SAS, Green Berets, Spetsnaz, the list goes on...) to give them similar slight advantages I'll mention researching and rebuilding the USMC OOB was around 4-800 man-hours of work. Now multiply that by 91 OOB's (seeing as 1, the USMC is already tweaked) and the simple answer is ... it ain't gonna happen.

Now, if it bothers you enough to do ALL the research yourself and create a custom OOB, based on verifiable research NOT "best guess" go for it !

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

Nah, that's not my point to get the oobs redone. However, if I choose to do a scen using SEAL, USMC, ROKS, for example, then yeah, I would tweak the units I needed too, while leaving the oob untouched. So, I might build a custom formation in Mobhack, then over in Scenhack change somethings, then in the game Editor use the D key to change the load outs, etc.

I mean, I try to let the player know when I've tweaked units (for game sim play experience based on solid research.) I don't open my mouth without references, else someone put a foot in it.

Abraham

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

That's what the editor is for!
I use it all the time when making scenarios.

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

Hi

Do you have the ANGLICO teams represented in the game? Or are you just using the FO units?

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

There's not a lot of reason (in game) to represent them separately as an FO-is-an-FO-is-an-FO.
"Recon" teams are parachute units and always include and FO.

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

I hadn't noticed that there were FO units in the recon units.

I'll use them

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

Here's a US Army related report on the M16A2 circa 1982-83 from a contractor working with Fort Benning:

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a168577.pdf

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

I don't know if Base experience and morale is randomized each time you load up a battle, but from a simple look, in January 1989, the USMC has +4 Experience and +3 Morale over the US Army, which is about right for the more intensely focused Marine training which has more emphasis on infantry combat arms, as opposed to the US Army's Big Green Machine Of Doom [TM].

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

That experience/morale base also varies from time-to-time.
Check the US Army and USMC during the 1970's you'll see it's lower then it is in say the 1990's.

As to the M-16, it always amused me that the official US Army manuals declared the maximum effective range of the M-16A1 was 460m yet every Marine was required to quality at that range. From what I saw of US Army ranges they never fired more then 300m and the requirements to qualify were lower. But I suppose that makes sense since Army doctrine was volume of fire vice the Marine one of quality.

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

Due to a computer melt-down during the v10 update to WinSPMBT several USMC OOB changes didn't get submitted.

Notably the addition of MARSOC/Raiders and the removal of the vision 40 fire teams and squads that were place-holders for MARSOC until I got some verifiable information about them and load-out changes to the F-35 as I also have better info on them now. And a few other tweaks (such as taking advantage of some new icons and LBMs) that should be transparent and not effect compatibility with the official OOB.

But, as always this is an UNOFFICIAL OOB modification.

Re: Suhiir's Revised USMC OOB #13
 

I was actually looking for the MARSOC units last night. I knew I had seen them somewhere. Thanks