Re: House Rules against the AI
 

He was suggesting generic house rules. I don't think the point is what sages you have!

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Depending on what nation you play and what you set the indies level to, chances are that several of the impossible AIs will be ahead of you on the research curve for a fairly long time. Especially if you get a slow start.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Yes, but you can probably keep up well enough when you consider the difference in efficient research as opposed to wasted research. This becomes particularly notable when you start handing out research boosters.

Besides, one only has to beat the AI. At that point, how you use your research is far more relevant than what you have. An impossible AI is pretty easy to drop with only one researcher per lab, particularly as it doesn't bar mages being used for non research purposes.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Well, there you are. So you agree with the original poster.

For my part, currently happening to play Dawn map against all Impossible AIs, I have spent the first 8-odd turns hiring researchers at my single lab, and looking at the chart I'm about half way up the scale compared to other AIs. So how I would beat them with just one researcher is beyond me.

Like I asked, has anybody actually (regularly) done this, as opposed to saying how easy it would be?

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

I haven't done this, but I'd assume the technique is to have fast expansion which doesn't rely on research, then lever that expansion into lots of labs.
Unless you start with an awake research pretender your research will suck at the end of 8 turns. You'll have to make up that deficit later, with more labs & castles.
I'd say the easiest way would be to start with a high bless nation, Mictlan or Niefleheim, for example. You hardly need researchers at all to beat the AI. Do that on tight map to let you fight and win earlier in the game.
I have my doubts about pulling it off with a mage (rather than sacred or thug) based nation.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

One of the options on AI games on my server is to run the game X turns before letting the players in.

Altho the if its a server game there are better boosts for AI. Allying them with each other, giving them equipment at the start, or an extra starting castle. And of course the best thing is assigning them a well-made pretender

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Dawn of Dominions is fairly stacked against you. That said, against the AI there are a few keys.
1) Province Defense. The AI is monumentally stupid, and will routinely split large forces, kill them off against PD individually, and not learn from its mistakes. PD is a good investment against the AI, and can buy you time.
2) Thugs and Supercombatants. These are amazingly good against the AI, which tends to be pretty bad at anything beyond troop swarming. An army with three banes with a fire brand, vine shield, and amulet of luck stuck way out front will be surprisingly effective, and this requires surprisingly little research.
3) With the 1 researcher per lab requirement, you will want most provinces to have labs. This includes those without forts.

I have killed a bunch of impossibles with the 1 researcher restriction using these keys multiple times, on varying maps. That includes Dawn of Dominions, playing as Caelum.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

I don't remember which difficulty it was, becouse it happened a lot of time ago. I doubt they were Impossible, but probably Mighty. But I once defeated 4 computer nations, with no research at all. W9F9B4 Jaguar Warriors, that's all you need.

The easiest way to defeat the computer is using PD smartly. Having triple blessed PD helps a lot too...

I once beat AI using nothing but the starting army and independent troops (and a SuperCombatant Pretender), plus national mages.

The AI has several big holes. Not only they aren't very original or smart in general, but they can't face some strategies at all. SC for example, is something that often defeat it. Scripting decoys to retreat to disable archers, using mass remote spells, that kind of things are very hard for AI to face.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

There are a handful of spells that will just wreck the AI. Anything that summons an SC, Flames from the Sky, Mind Hunt, Enslave Mind communions, so on and so forth. They can't counter SCs, they won't make smaller armies to mitigate Flames From The Sky, they don't hand out magic resistance gear and Mind Hunt works beautifully as a result, so on and so forth. Then there are the globals, where the player can easily have five up.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

I bow, scrape & grovel :D Fair enough, that was what I asked for. You are a much better player than I am ;)

I do take your points --- still not sure how you manage it early --- thanks.

I am retrying against AI @Impossible, but this time not losing my Pretender on turn #3 and then having to pray for her return, and I must admit it is going better......

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

In other words the strategy to beat the AI with limits on research (whether none or 1/lab) is to use strategies that don't rely on research. High bless sacreds or maybe SC pretenders.
It probably also helps to use a fairly small map. With ~20 opponents you might have had more trouble by the end.

The other easy choice for a nation would Nieflehiem. E9N4+ bless. Buy nothing but Neifel Jarls, and Giants when you have cash left over. Maybe 1 PD, just for visibility.

A interesting challenge I played with a few years ago was LA Ermor with an imprisoned pretender. No research, or extra reanimators, until he breaks free. Though you could get lucky with Etimmu or hire mercs to build labs for indy mage recruitment.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

I never managed to defeat Impossible AIs using the 1 researcher/lab rule, but i can half the time do it against Mighty AIs and consistently against Difficult ones...

I like to play with all empires in a given era, so the maps are normally large (i specially like the Latus one, it is good for some epic games).

I rarely finish the games i start with, normally ending the game when i´m at 1st place with a considerable lead on the 2nd place empire.

As others have said, some empires/tactics make it easier than others... bless factions have a clear advantage here, also a good SC pretender from the start (or at least dormant) will make you go a long way.

Even with the 1 researcher/lab rule i notice that the AIs rarely get ahead of me (with some exceptions when playing AIs above Difficult level), specially since i use all research boosters possible. Lately, instead of building labs everywhere i´m also restricting myself to build labs only where i can recruit a mage type commander (either from a castle, indys or sites).

Finally, i noticed that a higher number of mages in combat will make, at least in the beggining, a good boost to conquering indy provinces... massed fire flies/darts are fun...

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Very big maps benefit the AI in my experience. If only becouse boredom makes micromanagment very unfun at large scales, so I tend to overlook a lot of things in the late game, do half-arsed turns and so on.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

I like to play with more than all the empires of an age and maps larger than large. Maximum on both even. (didnt finish the game of course, but it was fun not to know what nation you might run into)

In case anyone is wondering:
the maximum map is 1500 provinces.
All of the nations in the game is 73
the maximum number of nations in a game is 99

If you chaos the map, throw in random alliances between the AIs, and add in the Special Monster AIs as Independents then you can get a game which can continue much farther than usual.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Don't forget about scales. Taking something like Caelum, Niefleheim, or Abyssia you can take Order 3, Luck 3, Growth 3, Cold/Heat 3, and Magic 3 if you don't bother with a bless. Early on, focus on troop use - the AI is good at massing troops, but their ability to pick them is substandard at best - use heavy PD, and just expand outward leaving no province undefended. You will want some low level of research, focused towards getting thugs and battlefield mages in play, these back your armies up. Eventually, the battlefield mages will be far more impressive, and the thugs will have transitioned to SCs, at which point you basically win.

Against a player, this strategy is a good way to die horribly. It only works against the AI because the AI is incredibly dumb, and even then you have to be careful.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Against the AI, I like to set Research to Very Difficult and pump up the independents to slow things down, and set up large games on larger maps, because a lot of the fun for me is finding stuff randomly dispersed around the map. Hidden Kingdoms and Towers of mages and stuff are awesome. Slowing down the game lets me play around with all of that.

I also like to go hard on the roleplaying aspects, so, for example, try EA Pangaea with 3 Turmoil, 3 Sloth, 3 Growth, 3 Luck and 3 Magic and never hire human troops (except maenads - lots and lots of maenads). Play MA Marignon without ever using undead or blood. Try always to rely most heavily on your sacreds as EA Agartha, eschewing inferior surface dwellers. That sort of thing can be amusing, although the AI folds pretty quickly anyway.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

I too like to RP a lot in games... like never using death/blood magic with "good" nations and so on...

I find also challenging to try to play as a "good guy" in a more "evil" faction... like using blood oriented nations without using blood hunting (i only use the natural blood supply from sites, etc.)... the main advantage is that i reduce the horrible micromanagement of blood economies and at same time give the AI a small advantage...

As from my original house rules, i also limit myself only to attack AIs that attacked me first (simly declaring war does not count)...

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

I wasn't aware of any good nation in Dominions 3 :p

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

The majority of the factions can be played as neutral or evil empires, but only a few can be roleplayed as a good nation... from the top of my head i can point out Man and Arcoscephale (except for the slavery thing)... most of the other nations can be considered neutral at best, with a few (MA and LA Ernor, Ryleh, etc.) being outright evil...

I believe there was a thread about good/evil factions some time ago and the general consensus was that all factions could be played as "Evil", about half as "Neutral" and only a handful as "Good" nations...

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

MA Ermor is not evil, just misguided :P

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Isn't a lot of the fluff for MA Ermor about using Death magic to hold back the Death unleashed at the end of EA Ermor? You could definitely spin that into at least a neutral rp.

Of course, everyone just unleashes as much death as they can, cause that's the most effective way to play it, but that doesn't mean you couldn't.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Here are a couple of examples of boosted AIs.
This text was added to a map creating better AIs

a game with lvl 3 boosted AIs
http://www.Dom3Minions.com/~gandalf/NewbsandVets1_boosted_AI.txt

a game with lvl 6 boosted AIs
http://www.Dom3Minions.com/~gandalf/NaVII_AI.txt

the next game was supposed to be lvl 10 but the players opted to lower that after trying the previous two. I need to dig that one up

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Yep, that's what I mean. Besides that, Death magic does not mean "evil" magic. Tien Chi Ancestors are summoned by death gems, and that do not qualify them as "evil"

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Thinking about you said mad me realize you are right... Death magic is not necessarily evil except for some spells/summons/itens, but other paths also have "evil" spells/summons/itens without making the path itself evil...

The only really "evil" path in itself is Blood...

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Yep, it's hard to argue that Blood is evil.

However, some nations might use Blood for reasons they think are not devil. LA Marignon comes to mind. Inquisitors think they are doing "the right thing"

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

One of my favorite nations is Pangaea. I would consider that to be an example of "we are not evil, we are right" nations. I think of Pangaea as the defenders of Nature. Using human sacrifices to get more defenders is considered necessary.

I think this is something that plays into the RPGers. The strategists might have quick pat answers for evil that the RPGers can role play out of

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

I am not a powergamer, but I generally use:
- all nations from the chosen era, mighty
- large map
- indy 9 (I like it when Independents stay on the map very long)
- magic sites EA 65 / MA 70 / LA 75 (you guess it I dislike gem poverty)
- hof 15
- very difficult research
- victory points : 7 required, 1/capital (I can't be bothered to finish a game with full conquest)
Also, I don't bid on mercenaries but I might go back to that (no overbidding though).

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Even for some "clearly" evil nations like Hinom, things are debatable.

I wouldt say jews are evil becouse they sacrifice lambs, or christians are evil becouse they eat turkey in christmas. They dont find themselves doing evil things, simoly becouse turkeys and lambs are inferior beings and they feel those are there to feed on them or force them to work (like horses). For Hinom, it is the same. Humans are for them so inferior as turkeys or lambs are for human beings.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Well hello there, Makinus! I resurrected this thread because, ever since reading your starting post when I started playing Dom, I have been very disturbed by my inability to win Impossible with just 1 researcher/lab..... I had assumed you had (shame on you!), now I hear you haven't I'm a lot happier ;)

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

The main trick is to use massed mages with low-level battles spells (fire flies/darts, that one that trows rocks, etc.)... 7 or 8 mages spamming low-level attack spells can do a suprisingly high amount of damage needing only a small screen (20 shield troops or so)...

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Strategists and RPGers are mutually exclusive categories now? That's new.

Also, it isn't RPGers. It's roleplayers.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

No I dont consider them exclusive. But they do represent different takes on the game, and SOMETIMES at odds.

And I did mean RPGers. I was referring mostly to the game styles. As in "people who play RPGs". If anything I guess that Strategists was wrong since "people who play strategy wargames" would best be referred to as Grognards but I wasnt sure how many here would get the reference. Googling RPGer or Grognard gives results which match what I had in mind.

I guess for your sake if I was answering officially it might have been best to say "This is something that plays into the RPGer in us. The Grognard in us might come up with a pat answer for evil that our RPGer can role play out of."

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Very large map
- Custom AI pretenders
- Indie strength 9
- Very difficult research
- Resource: 100 EA, 150 MA, 200 LA
- Supply 300
- Recruit exactly 1 of each kind of mage per province

The AI may not know how to deal with SCs or PDs, but given enough time to develop they will have multiple 500+ armies and 10+ mages that eat the average well-geared SCs. (Note to self: never send SCs against Ri-yeh)

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

So what strategy do you employ against an AI horde with 500+ troops and 10+ mages?

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Burden of Time

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Remote assassination spells are your friend here. Mind Hunt, Earth Attack, so on and so forth. Plus, you can just field much smaller armies backed by far fewer mages, and actually spend gems intelligently to win the fights effortlessly. Army of Gold, Earthquake, Earthquake, win for instance.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Ah, but what about following the rules from the OP?:

So far, we only discussed 1/lab.

What about with no Globals? :)

What about no battle gems? :)

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

There are plenty of spells that are pretty nasty without battle gems. Smaller buffs, stuff like blade wind, so on and so forth. Plus, against the AI you can have most every magic path, and between assassination spells and Flames From The Sky armies are fragile, fragile things.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

The last time I had to fight AI armies of such size, I would maybe throw a flames from the sky in that direction, then drop a mage SC in on them who can stand in melee while spamming aoe spells.

If you don't have access to such things, then you'll need to deploy an army that can hold the AI army down while you use some BE/battlefield wide spells to bring them down. I use the word army loosely and it doesn't need to resemble an army at all. But some useful spells could include blood rain, wailing winds, fire storm, rain of stones, earthquake, soul drain... the list goes on. And of course things like skellyspam are very handy to keep the opposing army occupied while you slowly chew through them.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

By the way, how does the AI use its gold? I was wondering if increasing the income would help the AI, since I rarely if ever feel in need of money in SP.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

The AI uses its money to buy anything and everything it can afford. Increasing the income *would* help the AI, but it would help you just as much. If you're trying to boost it that way, taking poor scales to compensate for the increased money would be necessary to avoid negating the advantage to the AI. It will recruit even more chaff that way though.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

There are also no-independent maps which forces the AI to spend money on elite troops and mages at castles instead of cheap independents all over the map.

Personally I consider those abit extreme altho a fun game variant. I prefer the partial NI maps where something like 1 out of 10 provinces is left with whatever random recruitables the game gives it. Thats the same effect of forcing the AI to better spending but it still allows for the joy of exploration, finding, and securing prime locations

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

There is also the no-indpendant, special sites that give recruits option. Basically, a bunch of new sites are modded in, and finding them gives access to some amount of independents, often including multiple troop types.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

If the AI earns enough money, it will actually buy itself an ice cream :)

Not sure what level you are playing it, and we've all claimed we can beat the AI anyway, but I would not say I am not "in need" of cash in SP. It is true that later on you seem to get more than you can want, but in the earlier stages I do not have the money to buy mages at every castle plus all troops each turn. If you truly have money to burn, don't forget that filling your homeland with temples never does any harm.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

I don't pretend to play optimally or even try to. It suits me perfectly fine that the income scale benefits me early and the AI late.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Good idea.... but what would be considered "poor" scales in that situation? If i get Trumoil3 instead of Order3 would i really be handicapping myself or, in a game with plentiful money, it would be irrelevant?

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Take the wrong temperature scales, don't use the extra points. The most blatant method is Heat 3 Niefleheim or EA Caelum, or Cold 3 Abyssia, but you can always get at least 3 away from ideal. Take Misfortune and Drain, don't use the extra points. So on and so forth.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Let's say you take turmoil 3 and heat/cold 3. That's 33% less gold that you get. And if the AI has just order 3 and nothing negative, it's more like a 55% difference. With double money that's huge, and will make things a fair bit more challenging, especially in the early game.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

Taking the wrong temperature also gives your units encumbrance from "severe heat/ Cold", I think it's +2 enc. Makes life especially difficult for nations that use high enc units/thugs.

Re: House Rules against the AI
 

The AI can be terrifying at the beginning of a single player game, a patsy in mid game, and boring, why bother, in late game. To make the late game more challenging, play two strong units as human. When you get to the lat game, turn whichever is stronger over to the AI (the become computer controlled command in the options menu).

I just did this playing Helheim and Hinnom. I avoided all the "Hinnom eats everything" units by not taking any luck and managed to do okay against the AI. When I turned it over to the Ai, I had all the Lords of Civilization summoned. It made for a pretty challenging late game. Nethgul was the key to victory.

When playing the AI I also try not to give my commanders any gems, which does make it harder in late game as the AI does do that at least.