Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

Sorry, I may have misunderstood you. If by "expansion", you mean "expanding against your neighbors who already ate up all the indies", then it's not a problem.

If you're talking about expanding against indies, which is what I usually take "expansion" to mean, then waiting for a Const-4 item or spending all your 1st year money on forts is just going to get you killed.

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

But of course! I forgot about the mindless, I knew he wouldn't autorout. I was mistaken on the Berserker Pelt.

Spiders are amazing, but that game was a lot fun. In reality he wasn't much more than an inexpensive, funny accessory that let me take good scales and have a blistering expansion.

I just couldn't get this image out of my head of a gigantic wooden statue rolling with the slope of the land in a roughly westwards direction, squashing all the pathetic local militias that tried to stop him, causing the inhabitants to pledge their allegiance. :)

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

Well, I knew that, but he can mind hunt (I think I even named him Bastardo). I though Astral would give him use past the expansion phase. I was not thinking of how that might cause him to absentmindedly kill himself with gifts from heaven.

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

That is not at all what I am saying. With a N9 bless, 3-4 spiders take any indy. And with the blessing I proposed you can easily afford

O3, r1, h2-3, g3, magic 3, luck x.

Each turn you can build an expansion team of 3-4 spiders and a bless monkey.

In fact, since you start with a priest and you can make a prophet you have a leg up. The spider commander prophetized will solo most provinces.

Use the starting troops to patrol, and set the tax rate at 120.
Your income most of the time will be roughly 600 or so.

If you go light on your initial expansion teams (3 spiders) your cost is less than 300.

This means that on turn 3-4 you easily have enough money to build your first fort.

I may be misremembering, however, my remembrance says that sorceresses are 190 for 7 rp. Regardless, you need the second fort to make the eyes of the lord (unit with patrol bonus?). Churn them out to lead troops, and to patrol.

Machaka units (other than spiders) are all resource intensive, and fairly uniformly, crap. However, your spiders are pretty darn good against thugs and SC's.

If you push forts, (while not interfering with your regular expansion) you ameliorate the glaring weakness of machaka pd.

Like I said v, I've got no problem hitting 15 with this strategy, with a 2nd fort built and third on the way in the first year.

What strategy are you promulgating? (and sorry I came across snippy).

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

I don't believe this is correct.

I *believe* that berserk units are given another 25 turns before autodeath.

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

Yeah, according to past discussions we've had about this on the forums, 75 is the hard limit on turns.

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

You are paying far too much for too little gain. With the scales you have there, you should be able to hit 15+ provinces, as well as a couple of castles, the first year without any bless whatsoever.

I think Black Hunters are generally underestimated here on the boards - probably because past incarnations of CBM made the price discrepancy between them and ordinary spiders so large - but their strength lies mainly in the opening game. Machaka really has no problem there, so investing in a N9 bless that gives you little afterwards is not the best idea.

About 6 Black Hunters without any bless can take practically any indy, pretty much the same as your 3-4 N9 expansion parties. Add in a minor N4 and possibly E4 (the latter helps against largish numbers and might be something you want anyway) and you can shave off a couple of hunters.

Do not get me wrong, you will of course get a better expansion rate with N9 than without, but once the indies are gone, the benefit of the bless will be greatly reduced. Human oponents really do not find it much harder to deal with N9 hunters than unblessed ones.


Also, Machakan troops are certainly not resource intensive. Apart from the hoplite, the regular troops are all very resource cheap. The combination of very cheap archers and good ability to cast Flame Arrows is excellent. Since Machaka has access to both the nature and earth protection spells as well as Iron Bane, cheap troops without armour has an occasional use. Combine with Curse of Stones for more fun.

Lastly Sorceresses have f1e1d1 + 10%fedn and cost 110gp, so 110 for 5rp is more accurate.

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

I'm using a dormant rainbow S4N4E4B4A?W???, whose minor paths I can't remember because he's currently dead (as the result of a failed experiment). 2 or 3 or something.

@ ChrisP: I agree that black hunters are good for expansion against indies. Rings of Regen, not so much. That was the point I was trying to make.

@ BigDaddy: Mindless units with S can *cast* Mind Hunt just fine. I'm saying a Collosal Fetish can't be targeted by it.

@ Amorphous: I think the Black Hunters are underestimated because outside of CBM they have MR 5 in spider form, and are more expensive to boot.

I don't think that putting a berserker pelt on a Collosal Fetish is a good idea. It's kind of broken: his morale will remain at 50, but he'll gain fatigue from the beserk and won't be able to self-buff. A morale-50 unit is not going to retreat ever anyway. The only exception is if you order him to retreat, which is actually a terrible idea, because he'll have some sort of positronic meltdown and just die.

I'm pretty sure mindless units dissolve on turn 50 whether they are berserk or not.

I don't like to hire the sorceresses because the (also) cap-only sorcerers are so much better.

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

You are probably right in part, but I doubt that is the whole of it. MR really does not matter during indy expansion and though some may stare themselves blind on the price tag of the hunters, I doubt that most fail to compare the cost to what else Machaka has available.

In vanilla, Black Hunter expansion parties are cheaper in gold but more expensive in resources than parties of Spider Riders. In past versions of CBM the cost of the riders were significantly lessened while hunters had a cost the same as in vanilla, which made the rider parties cheaper in gold and resources - outside of a some ridiculously expensive bless. The hunter cost decrease in the latest CBM version changes the situation to one similar to vanilla.

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

Aren't the Black Spiders still 100 gold each? 10 Spider riders (ie an investment of 300 gold) can take most indy provinces, but can 3 Black Spiders do that too? The usual upkeep advantage sacreds have is not relevant with spiders (riderless spiders are free from upkeep), so just the basic investment matters. I've been under the impresion one needs 5 or 6 black spiders to do the job of 10 brown ones, but I haven't tested this out in a loooong time.

I think I have to try this out :) If 3 Black spiders, even with a bless (build a temple in a province, and build indy priests to cast Bless ad nauseautum, and you can still recruit mages from the fort(s)), can act as an expansion party, then that has to be done for the shere coolness factor. Black Spiders *are* cool, there is no question about that (I think), but just being cool has not been good enough for the steep price (except to eat elephants and giants, but those are not common enough usually).

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

Black Hunters cost 80 and Spider Riders 30 in the latest CBM.
In vanilla, it is 125 and 50 respectively.

At least with a minor nature bless, 4 Black Hunters do better than 10 Spider Riders. From what I can remember, 3 was a bit too close. The chance of losing one is much greater than with 4 and going with just 2 does not really work, so you need to reinforce before you can continue.

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

Right, Black Spiders are now 80 gold a piece. However, 36 resources makes it difficult to recruit more than a couple in the early turns.

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

You do not need more than a couple.

The first expansion party is reasonably made up of ordinary spiders, but as soon as you have taken an adjacent province or two, it is not hard to come up with the resources. I usually play Machaka with sloth 3 and manage it just fine.

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

I just played Machaka in 2 player. I took production scales. I devoured the map. I don't think that there is another race that I have played that can make indy taking forces so quickly. I'm sure I could have fielded 5/turn if it was MP with indy commanders draining into my capital.

My setup might have been crappy in MP, however, because I chose a Lich to with just death magic and was racing to well of misery + tartarian gate. He never evem got out of prison before the hunter lord, 7 black hunters, and 53ish spider riders broke his main force. I was spreading across the ocean with the crazy cash and never -needed- a second castle.

The magic path was a gamble, because I could have gone with construction and then to flaming arrows. But, after the third turn, I could tell that even if he could field a force of mages with which to kill significant numbers of spiders, I strongly doubted he could hold many of his provinces while doing it. He did have some evo, but when I took a first castle I paused and gathered for 3 or 4 turns and had way too many spiders even for his paladin spearhead.

If I were him, I would have probably avoided that direct confrontation. But its hard in 2 player; I didn't have anything to do more important than concentrate on kicking his ***.

Or maybe I could have taken sever opponents of guard and conquered the world with their gems... especially if I could take out Ermor... how sweet thy gem site ermor...

I don't think we made it to turn 30.

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

Vfb:

I am very sure that I have gone 75 with a berserk mindless. I may be wrong. But I'm sure =).

Secondly, I've seen a few instances where mindless units can route. For example, set one up with quickness, and boots of flying. If they get to the edge of the board on their first action I believe they will route ok.

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

Yah; two player is very different than mp. As you say you don't have to worry about flanks, multiple armies. He who destroys the other's main army first usually wins.

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

I couldn't really disagree with you more. I'd really have to say.. *try it*.

I don't get the n9 blessing for the 14 regen. I don't get it for the additional protection.

I get it for the 99 morale. Machakan morale is not great. Berserk spiders will take, about 1 time in 4 provinces that non berserk units will not.

With small units ... losing even one unit will put you in the circumstance where you are taking morale checks or quit the field.

I get it - so you can expand with groups of 2-4 spiders - instead of 4-8. Which lets you send out an expansion party a turn instead of 2 in the first 4 turns.

So I view the N9 as critical especially if you wish to expand with units of 2-3 spiders.

The N9 bless is not what the opponent will have a problem dealing with. The issue is that you are sending out one expansion party a turn, *and not taking any losses*.

Whereas most non giant races will take attrition losses. This will mean on average that you will have about 25% more troops than an average nation, more experience as well as more provinces when you finally meet.


As for the resource intensive: I was thinking spiders and too lazy to fix the error.

As for sorceresses: Not with the specific scales I specified. Magic 3 = +2 rp.

I like earth - an minor earth bless works great, and I like it with the fetish (or other gods). I was just suggesting an alternate to the fetish.

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

The hunters are awesome, and the knights are nice, but, really, the riders are all you need, plus the archer dies faster than the armored dude you get otherwise, and that takes the upkeep away faster, which leads to more spiders faster.

I just get this vision of spiders just flowing off the sacred mountaintop... ha, scales...

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

First, I want to make two things clear, so that we understand each other.

1. I have tried it. I would not be making the claims I do, if I had not.

2. I assume that the game parameters are normal, e.g. indy strength is 5.


That said, I certainly cannot get N9 to work as well as you advertise. An expansion party of 2 spiders does not work very well at all. Even keeping to what seems to be easier indies, you will lose a spider more often than not. Essentially, such parties can capture one province. 4 N4 spiders perform a lot better. 4 spiders without any bless also perform better than the 2 N9 spiders as long as you keep to easier indies.

3 N9 spiders can take pretty much the same provinces as 4 N4. Thanks to the berserk the N9 spiders will take some provinces that the N4 ones would lose, but these are the same provinces where you lose a spider. I also have a slightly higher attrition rate among the N9 spiders, but it is slight enough that I am willing to write it off as natural variance. The N9 party performs a bit better than the N4 party.

4 N9 spiders can, with very few exceptions, take the same provinces as 6 N4, but with a significantly higher attrition rate, so the latter group clearly performs better.

8 Black Hunters without any bless whatsoever perform better across the board than 4 N9 do.


You will definitely lose spiders - even with N9 - if you keep sending them out in groups of 2-4. Same goes if you just send out groups of 4. If you want to go without losses (apart from really bad luck, of course), you are going to have to send out groups of 5-6. If you go with N4 you need 7-8.

If you have some special trick that allows you better performance than this, I can try it out, but the above is what I can manage consistently.

Again, I want to make clear that the N9 bless certainly makes the Black Hunters perform better than without it. The investment is, however, not worth the cost in my opinion. The difference between N4 and N9 is at least 160 points. You could spend 80 of those on production and thereby get an extra spider or two per turn, which makes your expansion very close to N9, and you still have 80 points left to spend.

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

Are we talking about CBM or non?

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

Yes, CBM.

Why is did you have something to say about non-CBM?

I assume that since things cost half as much in CBM that the cost of the spiders made it necessary to take scales.

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

with CBM:

the reduced cost of spider riders has made them available for using as a workhorse unit. Machaka can depend on them rather than requiring something like the Colossal Fetish (something which will only become quickly useless as the game moves into midgame).

thus, DONT take a colossal fetish, rather go for a rainbow to provide paths/combinations needed for Machaka to have a chance in late game, and really good scales for Machaka to recruit the hell out of spider riders/knights.

Crone:
E1S3N4D4 (or something like that, give S for diversity and the other paths for missing combinations to forge key items)
Dom6-7 (good dom for good scales)
O3P3H3L-1G3M1 (max income dom)
asleep

recruit spider riders/knights and build lots of forts to boost reasearch (this is why you have such good scales)
research site searching
research evo to 5 or 6 for battle magic
research const to 8 for artifacts
research conj

havn't really tried this out in any real gameplay (ie MP), but it looks like the tack I would take with Machaka now.

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

You think I could squeek it out with my favorite, an imprisoned astral rainbow master lich?
That is my SP favorite.

For 2player, I ussually go with somebody that uses indemic gems and has lots of that path. Preferably immortal, a titan, or immobile. Which seems less appropriate for MP.

I almost never choose an SC awake pretender, because you seem to lose your advantage by turn 20 or so.

I actually had the fetish set up as an astral somewhat rainbow mage (imprisoned).

However, I'm seeing more and more that by turn 20 some people can already be killed... Well, I ussually have a PK army at that point as any nation and essentially at any province size... But, I suppose it can happen to anyone. I find it's difficult to have an insurmountable rush before turn 20 and after that some of the provinces start to pay off.

I think people forget that all those provinces don't instantly pay themselves off, they have a rate of return. And despite what people always say, that they have an army design were their stuff doesnt' die to 'most indies,' the fact is that I know you take losses, 1 or 2... whatever. You take em as Jotenheim, you take'em with serpent cataphracts, with knights of various kinds...

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

I don't believe there is any difference on the scales. Check my scales settings.. do you really want to buy luck with order?

with an imprisoned N3 pretender, n9 = 6 picks, 21*7 = 147 points.
n4 = 7 points. Difference is 140.

However, if you are taking a rainbow crone (another favorite of mine), n4= 42 points. Difference = 105, plus the cost of the lord of fertility.

As for .. tricks. You absolutely do have to choose provinces differently. Small numbers of cavalry, are easy spider prey.
anything with small damage out put... wolf warriors. Are good choices. Provinces with three types of troops.


with a non human blesser (ie spider) you don't care about most archers.

Anyway, we agree on most details. After thats its play style...

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

I was just playing with their spider knights in SP testing.

results: they are not going to cut it offensively
reason: they are size 5 with str 10 and no high damage attacks
why this matters: each spider will probably be attacking a different square, such that they can't gang up on and kill single units.
what to do: use them defensively. the spider knights are extra robust, and their webspit is a straight defensive tool, plus their size helps them congest up the battlefield. set spider knights to fire closest, place tons of machaka's cheap archers behind them.

also, given this analysis, blessing is definitely a bad idea with Machaka. The Black Hunters are but slightly improved spider riders, damage wise (11 vs 10 str, 18 vs 16 dam spider bite). plus they are cap only, and there are no sacred mages to benefit from something like a D bless. bad bad bad. Machaka is a scales nation only.

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

I don't see the problem. spiders destroy indies just fine.
spiders with mage support kill SCS even better.

I also don't like paying upkeep on machaka archers.
When attacked you can pop out a lot of archers fast, and move to where needed with mapmove 2.

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

They work fine early game, because they have death poison, and enough str to kill undead, although, I'd probably prefer javelins and hoplites for undead... at least undead that webs and priests had trouble with.

Mid-game they make a nice wall to hide behind and cast spells.

Although I haven't really played multiplayer late game, I assume that they get mowed down by SC, because their skills aren't that high, their damage is Okish, but only 1 per square.

Some nations have troops that can kill some less SCs, such as Pythium emerald guards or serpent catphracts, giants with javelins... giants with javelins will kill most stuff...

I assume though, that picking will be slim for killing SCs this way in late game, and you'll have to have some size army and mages, or an SC control unit.

Re: Can someone tell me about Machaka?
 

I do not understand your answer at all. As far as I can tell your scales involved production 1, so going two steps further would be production 3.

Now even apart from that, 160 points is 160 points however you spend it. Luck and order is not a bad combination when you have a sizeable empire, which Machaka should achieve rather quickly. Going from imprisoned to sleeping is just 100 points and nets you about 2 more years of active pretender. Sleeping to awake is 150 points.

160 points is a lot and any such investment should give you a lot, otherwise it is just a bad investment.


The base cost of magic pics is 8, not 7. You are probably confusing it with the base cost of dominion. 160 points is the minimum difference possible with Machaka. And that requires you to take the Lord of Fertility. Any other pretender and the difference get larger.

Well, this does not differ significantly from how I do it, so my opinion remains the same.

What I will add is that you have incomplete intelligence during the expansion phase. This is bad for small numbers of spiders, because lots of troops, more or less regardless of which kind, present a very much increased risk of losing spiders.

If you send out parties of 4- Black Hunters, you will lose some of them, even if you keep away from what seems to be the harder indies.


Well, especially in CBM I prefer sloth 3. Spider Riders are good enough to quickly expand into most indies and groups of Black Hunters handle the rest. This gives me 15-20 provinces and a couple of castles the first year as well as giving me a lot more points to play with for the pretender.



Ink:
Evaluating Black Hunters through Spider Knights is not a good idea - they are very different. Just compare the performance of equally large groups of both of them to see what I mean.

I happen to agree that Black Hunters do not warrant any big bless. They manage quite well without any bless during expansion and they are very good deterrents against some rushes. Later in the game there are too many counters to them for them to be anything other than specialty units.