Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

I used to believe that gems were limited to one for fatigue reduction purposes. Squirrel provided a turn that proved that wasnt' so.

He also had an F4 oracle burning 6 gems (1 the spell, 2 for fatigue). the same turn documented another case of the same thing.
Others have shown shark attack to do the same thing.

So I don't believe this is correct. However, without testing it.. who knows.
Still, 5-6 Leo's blowing up 1-2 times would be enough to take out many medium armies.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Wait, I knew there was some debate about burning extra gems to reduce fatigue, but I thought it was pretty solid that a mage couldn't use more gems for anything than he had levels in the path?

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

And if you are offering to burn gems and add a reinvigoration-heart - why not add heart, gem, then script, say, Phoenix Power-attack-Immolate-Immolate-Immolate?

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Sure, or give him a medallion of vengeance on top....

immolate is a great spell - but it requires surviving to use, and if you are attacking naked, its quite likely that you will not be surviving to cast it.

whereas phoenix does not have that requirement.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Tested in SP, they survived in close combat for some time. As I said, thei have above-average stats & are armored...

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

In a game as LA Pythium I wanted to get rid of a Leo for whome I found no use (and the bastard was killing my dominion in the border areas), I put him at front with the troopers (slightly aside of them) in an army which was attacking an AI controlled nation. Scripted IIRC Fire Shield, Fireflies, Burning Hands x 3, Attack rear.

When I was viewing the battlereport, to my suprise he had dutifully burned quite a few enemies (those Leo's apparently can take a beating with just their standard equipment), but was killed when, after he had charged forwards and passed out, got surrounded and killed.

Didn't think of it more then except as a quirk, but now that it was mentioned, maybe a few Leos at front would indeed be nice flamethrowers together with for example fire drakes or some such?

Hmmm... have to test this out at some point :)

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

As I said in my pythium guide... I'm quite fond of both of the fire throwers.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

I think you have the right idea using the leos to cast burning hands. The fire shield seems to me to be pointless, because with all that fatigue the second they touch melee they die horribly.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

probably very much like shockwave, the question is how do you position and script for maximum efficiency.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

It actually works, when there is somebody to catch the arrows, at least against indies. Tried with three Leo's soloing a weak indy province, got trashed. Took two Leo's, added in the 15 Comitatense from the starting army, and no indy province (at Indy strength 5) seems to be able to stand against them.

Against Cavalry I start way back, slightly right from center, with the comitanense with Hold and Attack closest, the Leo's starting on both flanks and slightly more to left. Leo's are scripted Hold,Hold,Attack,Burning Hands x2 (and nothing after that). Works wonderfully.

Against everything else the Comitanense is scripted Attack Closest, starting as far right as they can. The Leo's start slightly to left on each flank, with Attack, Attack, Attack, Burning Hands, Burning Hands (and nothing after that). Even Barbarians are burned and routed fast.

I attacked 8 indy provinces with that army, lost one Comitanense (against a province with knights and crossbowmen) in the process. In practically all the fights the Leos were also hit (the other one lost an eye somewhere along the road), but they seem to be quite tough indeed. I am frankly quite amazed at how efficient killing machines they turned out to be.

Then again, just a test vs indy provinces with easy research and an awake Great Sage pretender, so Burning Hands was available on Turn 2. So can hardly be extrapolated that far, but still, under right circumstances the Leo's certainly could be used as front line damage dealers.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Thats a cool discovery Jarkko. Got to do some tests now.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Jarkko that is a really cool use for Leos. It has been a while since I looked at LA Pythium... if they have access to air you could forge the Leos some amulets to protect against arrows.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

LA Pythium doesn't have native access to air;

Both the comitanse have 50% fire resistance. The other fire thrower is a 1f ?(FE). Which works well with eagle eyes. Which is why I think the research path for Pythium is evocation, not conjuration.

As for the results 15 or so comitense can take almost any indy, anyway, so I'm not sure we're adding much via the leo.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

The Theurgs have 1S and 1(AWS).

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Ethereal flamethrowers even :).

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Indeed, the Comitanense are tough, they have lots of staying power. They walz through weaker indies like nothing even alone (just a commander to lead them is needed). However, when I've tried to use them (even with the help of a prophet) against knights or barbarians, they've gotten trashed. The Leos added quite a punch to that staying power (and the Leos themselves have nice staying power to stand up front to deal the damage). Yet, as I mentioned, I wouldn't advice anybody to actively go for this strategy, but it certainly opened up to me that the Leos actually might have uses in certain situations, and I actually believe I might have a cunning plan for them in a few situations (need to test this out first :) ).

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

I think about trying Limitani Solaris. They are cheaper, produced everywhere and have fire resistance in case Leo misses.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Don't get me wrong.. I still like leos. body ethereal burning hands has a lot to recommend it.

that said, if you want to take out cav, 80 gold get you 10 netwielding retiaris.. a cheaper solution for cavalry cannot be imagined.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Ok, another challenge: Machakas Black sorcerer. Is there any cost effective way to make proper use of their second shape ability? Can they be made into frontline damage dealers, or something thugish?

If those could change shape at will, like the skratti, they'd be totally awesome thugs.(maybe a possible CBM change to boost poor little Machaka?)

But as it is now, I haven't succeded in making them good at anything exept regular battle magery. They're totally awesome at that of course, but that unused potential itches...

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

They're very nasty front line vomiting flame eruption as Wingeddog learned me upside my face. Give them some black hunter bodyguards, run forward one turn and cast flame eruption. Second form keeps them from dying from an unlucky hit so you can use them in close range, and 3-4 of them doing this will annihilate huge swaths of most troops. That's 26+ AP damage with a 15 AOE and they can cast it several times as fresh troops climb over the charred bodies of their front lines.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Well, on a quick read I didn't find a reference, but I've had some quite excellent success with hawk commanders (call of winds) with dual bottles of water. But don't send the damn hawks with them or they just rout. You can go with one bottle, but 2 seems to be the trick. One of those things when you have air and water gems to burn but short on others.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Well... this would be my take:

amulet of luck, ring of regeneration.

Script summon earth power, invulnerability, soul vortex, fire shield.

Mix in a phoenix power if you can.


A 25 prot hunter spider, with fire shield and regen, and vortex going off isn't a bad thug. Give him plenty of gems ... skull of fire is another possibility. Giving him a guard of scum with low mr .. barbarians etc also good.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

I've tried that actually. But the items + the need for extra gems + the tendency to rout when transforming ends up making them unreliable and cost ineffective. If you could get the pyre/vortex combo going without afflictions and other hassles then it might be worth it, but I only managed that with a success ratio of about 50&, not good enough. It works to a degree, but is it worth it?

A hunter lord with lycan amulet and girdle gives a lot more bang for the buck if you want a raider.

Frontline damage casters/buffers with some gear for survival seems to be the role of black sorcerors.

I also found them great for casting earthquakes since they are guaranteed to survive it.

How about the regular spider commanders, can they be thugged out somehow?

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

When alone, the Black Sorcerers rout everytime they are changed to spider form. Apparently the game thinks 100% of starting healthpoints have been lost when the transformation happens. The Black Sorcere is also prone to rout when with an army when he transforms.

After Fantomen asked the possibility to thug with two Black Sorcerer I tried one with Slave Matrix and Lycanthrope Amulet. Originally I had intended to send along a third Black Sorcerer with a Master Matrix to do the buffing, but as I stumbled on indy astral mages, so I sent one S1 mage (with a Just Mans cross) along and scripted Communion Master, Personal Luck, Body Ethereal, Fire Closest (and hoping an arrow or something would the sorcerer before he goes ethereal to make him transform). Ethereal Lucky Berserking Black Sorcerers/Spiders worked damn fine against AI nations and indies, but it really isn't something worth to plan on (first of all you need a pretender who can craft the matrixes, and then you need to find an indy astral mage). But that is all I could really think of, so...

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Best use of Black Sorcerer (with F random) is casting Fire Storm (with misc fire booster, Phoenix Power and 5 gems). And he can`t rout due overfatigue, so you can use some bodyguards, or summon elementals with another Black Sorcerer to protect storm-caster.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Jarkko, Body Ethereal is AoE and therefore will not pass on to slaves.

If you've got an S mage, you're better off casting (Body Ethereal,Luck) as buffs than setting up a communion.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

If you only have S1 then body ethereal and personal luck is going to give you some perilous fatigue. Better to just go with one of them.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

No, he has a black sorcerer thug, with an S1 buffer tagging along behind.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Bodyguards helps with the routing problem....
but perhaps someone casting berserker or touch of madnes would be better.

PS I agree that they are better casters than thugs.. I just tried to answer the question as asked = ). Best does not mean good = ).

I've also been curious on the interactions between phoenix pyre, elixer's of life, hearts of life, and second forms.

Final bit of curiousity.. I wonder if a low defined damage.. like rigor mortis.. could be used to trigger the transformation without causing death or routing...

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

So I did some more tests of black sorcerors... some very interesting results....


There are a variety of ways to make the black sorceror not route upon transformation.

1. Excess fatigue >100. With Prot 27 (e9, bracer, invul) and a fireshield, they spiders would not route due to fatigue.

2. Lycan amulet.

3. elixir of life. interestingly, this sets the fatigue to ZERO as well as prevents routing, upon transformation. And yes, you come in the second form, not the humanoid form.

4. medallion of vengeance. I never routed when I had this item either.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Some interesting combinations.
1. Skull of fire, elixir of life.
Script phoenix, summon earth power, invuln, fire shield..

After the bracers, summon earth power, and earth bless you will have reinvig 9 ish. Plus, your base encumbrance is 2.

With a 2F sorceror (3f can ignore skull or phoenix)... after the elixir kicks in you will wipe out your accumulated fatigue.. and the spider will have no hesitation at all about casting burning hands repeatedly.

2. Another interesting, if expensive combination:
slave matrix. medallion of vengeance/berserker pelt/elixir

slave matrix - for a weird, linebacker communion.
berserker pelt- makes the slave charge forward.

So, you cast all your buffs... slave charges forward.. is killed.
however, at which point the elixir drains all the fatigue away.
And now you have a linebacker buffed spider....

3. With a shroud, bracer, lycan amulet - I kept finding the shroud after combat, so long as I won. 6/6. Might be luck of course.


Last interesting tidbit.
The assassins make GREAT mummies.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Thanks for spider research. But this latter causes a question. Do you mean that mummy will retain assassin ability? Or what?

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

No.

One of the reasons that I like mummies is that they have a disease cloud. The assassins wield bane blades, which cause decay.

When you are diseased, and hit with decay, it not only ages you, but causes hp loss. The assassins are dual wielding bane weapons.

Additionally, virtually all machaka wizards can cast fever - a spell usually overlooked.

Of course these spells are only suitable early game... but its pretty easy for machaka to get penetration

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

When the assassin gets mummified I think it loses the Bane weapons. So can't you just put a Bane Blade on any old mummy?

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Yeah I don't follow this logic either.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Another one - a Midgard (LA Vans) Galderman (skinshifter mage) - using only national mages for making equipment? I know they are primarily tough battlefield mages, but... ;)
My own thought is along a line of either Shroud (with E/N bless) or Rainbow armor, either some reinvigoration boots or Winged, plus some reinvigoration amulet. I'm not sure about whether to take pair of shields and Shock Wave spam or some weapon.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Dai Tengu, or any of the new Jomon Summons. And the Monk... Oh it would awesome to turn one of those monks into a Thug. Which every path pick.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Galderman has regeneration and air, so should make a workable thug with mistform and some reinvig item.

Stats are a bit low in human form though, I think the main problem here is that your vanjarls are better thugs so you'll rather spend your gems on them instead. If you get lucky with gems or get the forge up than maybe galdermen could see some thug use.

Edit: On second thought the galdermen might be as good or better than vanjarls if you go for a non-bless strategy and great scales. With skinshifter bodyguards used in groups with little or no equipment.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Yes, I see it. Main problem with Vanjarls in LA is that they are capital-only. So that they aren't enough for all thug duties. I think about using Jarls for raiding and Galdermen for army support, or something like this. Plus, Galdermen have foot slot, making them useful flying thugs. And Vans are your only national priests in LA, too - so Vanjarls get an additional set of duties, too, for their small numbers.

Re: Making something out of nothing (Can you turn this into a Thug?)
 

Dai Tengu is a good thug with just Summon Earthpower and Mistform - which he can cast. Any bless helps, of course. Any Tengu bodyguards help, too - depending on his duties. The problem with he is that he's more useful as battlefield mage able to cast most army buffs. Other summons I didn't test, but may do soon.
Monks have too poor stats for thugs and can't have bodyguards. But they are useful as front-line casters. So, in addition to your Master Shukenja prophet you should use them from among your troops. Say, put them right next to some commander having 10+ bodyguards, give them some shields - depending on gems you have, and penetration boosters for Fire and Earth ones. Then spam Signs. Water ones should probably run forward and cast Freezing touch - or just stay at home. Nature ones gain level and then should spam any Nature spells you have researched.