Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

That seems to be the usual way to handle things on forums that I have experienced so far, yes.

I can see that Shrapnel Games strive to keep the forums calm and that Annette has thick skin, but if somebody is suddenly axed without any prior indication then it doesn't look like that to others.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Gandalf, dang, that's why you shut them down with a temporary ban - they cant "fire off in our face". You don't have to hear them rant about Nazis and such. Not until they've suffered (and at this point, for the good of Shrapnel's image, and the general community well being, it should be made public somewhere) a temporary ban of some sort.

If they come back after that ban, still spitting venom, well there you go - they asked for it, I mean really, not an innuendo "they asked for it", but a fully public, demonstrably to all, asking for it.

If Trumenator or Frozen Lama had been publicly warned (lets just forget about the other two at this point) and kept out of the forums for some period of time, but then came back blazing away with piss and vinegar, I would say "let em' rot!".

But the way they were canned, I don't like it. I don't like it enough to make a more or less lurker like me get all upset enough about it to spend an evening posting about it.

Well, I'll get busy with real life soon enough, that or my wife will yell at me for wasting time while bombs go off in NY, oil destroys Mardi-Gras, and Greeks riot in the streets, etc., etc... And then Shrapnel wont have to worry about me so much.

But I still wont like it, I just wont post so much.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

If by jumping the guard, you mean casually letting the guard know that you really don't mind being in jail, because they have decent food there.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Possibly OT, but possibly relevant:

Has anyone from IllWinter had anything to say on this yet? Because this isn't just about a Shrapnel Games product; IllWinter has a stake in this community too.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Yes. But, like most of this, not publicly.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

I certainly hope no one has been bugging illwinter over this matter. It really has nothing to do with them, and there's no reason for them to come out in support of any side or position. Personally I don't think they need to take a position on it.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

I want to make this perfectly clear to all. Illwinter was not involved in this decision on any level. We have intentionally not talked with them, before, during, or after this decision.

Regards,

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Sorry. Didnt mean to give such an impression. Only that they are aware so no one needs to feel the need to contact them.
They do have social contacts and forums outside of this.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

and blow down the little piggy's house! wait, someone arleady did? who? oh well, nevermind then.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

@ Tim brooks, Annette and other intrusive moderators/admin

i just cant understand how any moderator could ever possibly felt like he would achieve something even remotely beneficial to the community by banning those fellows.

we want our modders back.

moderators, please keep spam and illegal stuff like piracy and the like out and - please - just - dont - ever - get - involved for anyhting more than that because you are not bringing any value to this game and in this recent case you actually destroyed value.

i am not (yet) a contributor (except through the fact that I brought more than a couple of my friends to buy this game) to these forums, but i dont care if i read anyhting harsh cause you know this is just a forum and i can just skip those posts i dont want to read.

but i want to find mods because they bring me value.

it might even be that some day I will make my own mods or maps and post them here because fellow modders will have inspired me and helped me do so.

you moderators wont ever do that.

so please, keep out, just keep the thing basically functional.

those are not your forums, those are your customers' forums because WE make all this possible by buying the games. you are just here to maintain the whole thing working. i dont want to be harsh but stick to your professionnal tasks and dont get personal or worse, dont try to show us how to behave.

we'll handle the rest.

thanks.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Llol

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

I thought about pointing out the fact that when you bought the game you bought the game software, and that the publisher is not actually obliged to provide a forum for it.

Then I decided that it was pointless.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

No. Even without piracy and spam and the like, trolling and other abusive behavior can destroy a community. I've seen it happen. More than once.

You can just skip the harsh posts you don't want to read, until they and the responses and flame wars they generate become 99% of the traffic. The serious posts become lost in a sea of garbage and everyone but the trolls stop bothering.

Some form of moderation is required. Someone has to have the power to delete posts and ban users. On a commercial site, it's going to be the owners and whoever they delegate.

Note that I'm not saying this particular action was right, just arguing against the claim that Shrapnel shouldn't be involved.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

I'm fairly certain if you do a WHOIS you'll find that these really are our forums. In case I missed the news though and you're now part of the ownership can I have a raise?

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Just to clarify, I don't really think there should be different standards based on a person's status in the community (as I mentioned in one of the other threads on this topic). I was just making a joke to try to lighten things up, but I can see how it reads the way you interpreted it.

I'm not at all sure this would have been the case. Perhaps if there were a consensus regarding Sombre's behavior, but I think the recent discussions have made it clear that isn't so. I think there would have been arguments about whether the temp bans were justified, whether the temp bans should ever lead to a permanent ban, etc. Perhaps some of the moderates in the middle of this argument would have been swayed but since a lot of this comes down to a person's reaction to Sombre's behavior it seems like it would have ended up with largely with the same division in opinion as now. If someone thinks his behavior is acceptable (or at least worth putting up with) why would they think even a temp ban is justified? A series of temp bans might have defused the situation by making the process gradual but it might also have just dragged it out and caused more damage. Of course if the temp bans succeeded in changing his behavior that would be one thing - but does anyone really think that likely?

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Eh... when maerlande was temp banned, no one really made a fuss. If sombre had been temp banned, certainly people would have been miffed, especially given how divided we all are on just how serious his banning offense was. The levels of vitriol would have been much lower though, and the other bannings would almost certainly been avoided. Not that this sort of speculation really helps things where we are now :)



Anyway it seems this has been discussed to death at this point. It's time we move forward and try to find whatever positives we can in all this. And hopefully shrapnel has learned from the ugliness of this episode, and will listen to some of the suggestions made by the community to make any potential future bannings much less ugly.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

I agree with that sentiment. The above post is my last on this topic.

So ... back to Crossbows vs. Longbows? Or maybe a nice, relaxing monkey PD discussion?

Edit: One last thing. Truman and Frozen clearly crossed the line and were looking to be banned but I've had only positive interactions with them before this point and they've been helpful forum members. So, once they cool off, if they're interested in returning I think they deserve a second chance.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

There is a new forum:

http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?

Nothing is banned or moderated there. It's a bit wheels off, but freedom of speech is honored there.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

You are aware that the issue of how a private forum is moderated is not at all related to the issue of freedom of speech, yes?

As an example, if I say that in my house nobody is allowed to say anything at all and invite you in as a guest, your right to freedom of speech has not been violated when I expect you to shut up and choose to throw you out, should you start talking. (You might rightfully question my sanity by that point should you feel so inclined, but freedom of speech just doesn't enter the equation).

Ignoring that for the moment, good luck with the new forum! :)

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Actually, It's more like I invite someone in my house and he starts calling me a (insert insult here). I throw him out and he says I violated his freedom of speech.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

it's funny when you speak so valiantly about a topic yet you are so clueless about it... local rules, be it your house, a forum, a country's laws, or whatever else, do not affect the freedom of speech which is a universal concept. you're saying that you can do whatever you want in your house/forums and it won't damage the freedom of speech, so what happens in countries such as Cuba, Venezuela or any of the Communist countries(not these days but back when Communism prevailed there)? they didn't damage the freedom of speech because it's their country, so they can do whatever they want in it? :doh:

or wait, countries are different because they are everyone's, right...? :angel see, that's where you're wrong! countries are not for everyone, it's the liberal/democratic system that claims as such, but not all countries are liberal/democracies so this doesn't apply to the concept of a county as a whole.

freedom of speech is an absolute concept. however it is never kept 100%, it is always damaged to a degree. the question is how far are you going to damage the freedom of speech, or how tight/loose of a leash you put on it. and it doesn't matter whether it's a forum, your home, a country, your work place, the UN or whatever else. so please, don't come here and tell us that because you agree with Shrapnel's stance on this incident, which many including myself claim was within their right to do so, didn't affect the freedom of speech. that, my friend, is called hypocrisy!

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Except that this is not a country. This is Internet.

And..
everything has its pros/cons. Even free speech. Its not how much you are willing to damage it.
Its where on the scale do you wish to be balancing its benefits vs its detriments.
(hint: neither extreme tends to be a good answer)

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Clueless, am I?

As a concept of universal rights, you have the right to seek information, to receive information, and to express information. Moreover, the means of expression is not limited to any specific medium, you have the right to express it via any medium.

This does not, however, give you the right to do this wherever you want saying whatever you want without consequences to your actions. In my example, where I forbid talking in my house, I have not violated your rights to express information. I have not sought to prevent you from obtaining or receiving specific or general information. I have merely applied a sanction to you (evicting you from my property) that I am granted by another right (my right to decide who gets to be on my property for whatever reason I see fit). The latter right might possibly conflict with other rights (universal or not).

So, while not a violation of the universal concept, it might be a violation of a non-universal practical interpretation as codified by laws; However, most such laws dealing with practical interpretations deal with freedom of speech in public.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

nice argument, too bad it was entirely off topic. the passage I quoted of you clearly said that is doesn't violate the freedom of speech if you tell somebody who arrived at your home to not say a single word. you claimed it doesn't violate the freedom of speech when Shrapnel perma banned Sombre and others for speaking their minds, no matter how they said it. that was what you said and is what I corrected you on. in that passage alone you didn't mention consequences, limits of freedom of speech, etc, you just claimed it doesn't apply in these situations, because it's comfortable to you that it won't.

also, why bring the right for information and all these other things into it? there's absolutely no relevance... now, I clearly said that freedom of speech has its limitations. even the most liberal places have some limitations on it, good job for stating the obvious there! however you can't deny that these limitations are arguable, and it's a very thin line that has no clear boundaries. also you can't just dismiss things when they don't suit your agenda, and rambling off topic to prove a false point is just dumb...

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Please, gentlemen, let's keep this civil. Shrapnel Games' policy regarding freedom of speech is found under the "Terms of Use" section in "Forum Rules."

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

I thought this was over in the middle of page 7. Back to the OP's post, please?

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

I have to admit that I failed to grasp what you intended with your last post as you jumped from my house example to universal rights to Venezuela/Cuba to nations in general to the question of democracy and freedom of speech and ended up with accusing me of hypocrisy for supporting Shrapnels' right to make deals with other people regarding the use of their forums, which you seem to consider for some reason to be a restriction of the freedom of speech.

Apparently your entire point was the last two or three lines coupled with the assumption somewhat along the lines of "freely entering into a deal with somebody else that requires you, as your part of the deal, not to speak about something specific is a violation of your right to the freedom of speech" but let's be fair here; Reading your previous post, how on earth was I to know that? :)



EDIT: Right, Ich. Deep breath. Thank you. :)

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

I don't agree by the way that the concept of free speech is a universal concept. And a little bit of history backs this up. Even in our american colonies we had taxes on books; and we came from a style of government where you could be imprisoned for wht you said.

Thats one of the reasons the rights enshrined in the constitution were so radical.

I do think that we have made great progress in much of the world convincing people that free speech is a good thing. However, I would say that in the muslim concept, in their uma, there is no such belief.

For example, note the willingness to issue fatwahs against the cpenhagen cartoonists. Similiar efforts to restrict free speech are under assault at the UN under the guise of religious liberty.
Likewise the saying in china is the tallest tree gets cut down first. conformity is valued more highly than exceptionalism or free speech. Perhaps justifiably as they have a lot of people that have to live in proximity.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

And did you know eBay charges a 15% fee on the final sale price of a book! What kind of heartless corporate organization charges people more money because they want to read! Down with the British and down with eBay!

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

:)
How geeky are we? Mixing virtual world with real world in everything?

OK how about this? In our VIRTUAL Community we VIRTUALLY have Free Speech?
(see the play on words? virtually as in "almost like but not really")

The organization of the Internet is much like a giant democracy made up of many small tyrannies.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

seems like you still failed to understand my point. I didn't accuse you of hypocrisy for supporting Shrapnel's policy, but for turning the freedom off speech on and off whenever it suits your agenda. claiming it doesn't count in your home, on private forums over the internet or wherever else is why I made such a claim.

also, I didn't criticize any specific policy in my post, you wanted it to be like that because that's what you're fighting with all the Sombre supporters in here. however I have not presented any side, neither Sombre's supporters or yours and your followers. I merely asked that you don't hold double standards but be consistent...

nor did I speak neither for nor against the freedom of speech concept in general. I merely acknowledged that it's a concept we live by in our Western world. nor did I accuse Shrapnel or yourself of not acting according to the Western standards of the freedom of speech.

as for Shrapnel, as I clearly said in the post above, it was within their absolute right to act the way they did. whether it was also necessary or not is still debatable, and seeing all the antagonism this decision created I'd have to say in hind sight that it wasn't. as to all you people who say "Sombre was rude, irritating, bashing newbies, etc" I have to ask, where were you all this time? now that he's been banned you wake up and defend the decision, but we never heard from you all this time, whats up with that? seems like Shrapnel's decision was driven by these people who never spoke up before hands, only minor incidents in some minor threads. so now, in hind site and without all the information, as they're still hiding most of it I must say I can't support it. that's not to say it wasn't the right decision at the time, nor whether I would have acted differently or not if I was to make the decision and had all the information they had.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

I see your points. But I cant really say I agree with alot of that.

Surely a person can have different rules or attitudes about something in different places? I have different ideas of what should be allowable concerning nudity, cursing, drinking, smoking, brawling, noise, etc which varies for different places.

Is this just between you two? (referring to the "our western world")

As to the lack of comments, that might in itself be part of the problem. I have emails and PMs from people who felt they were being chased out. One recently chewed me out for "abandoning the forum" because when he was "ganged up on there was no gang to stand beside me". Another referred to the "elites". What you are saying is that you arent hearing much from the people still here. Possibly that is part of what is on the scale of measurement altho I suspect its yet another collection that is in the vaults of private communications..

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

since when was the discussion about a set of rules for various things? you've also entirely missed the point Gandalf. it's about standards, or more precisely, double standards. not about rules...

and well, can you really blame me for not seeing PMs you receive(no idea why you but whatever) or PMs that somebody else receives? I'm saying that I couldn't find them speak up over the forums, where the public eye can see it... also I clearly said that I don't have access to all the information, PMs being among them, as well as the administrative forums, etc.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Im sorry. I thought you associated the level of speech allowed here with that of your country.
Or inside someones house, with outside the house. You're right, must have gone by.

I have no idea why me either. Other than being in the threads that sparked the feeling of persecution I guess. For some reason I came across as the opposite of what they were complaining about. But I do remember seeing public complaints fairly often also.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Hmm. I have to say, I have been on a lot of forums, and there is always a bit of an "old guard" situation, where certain forum members are very highly respected. These guys are pillars of the community. They've earned friends, rivals, and the respect and loathing of numerous others. The situation we have here is hardly any different. You have to expect this sort of thing in a forum, or indeed any community. Someone who has been around for a while is going to have friends who will stick up for them. Some random newbie who just wandered in, probably won't.

That said, this is also one of the most noob-friendly forums I've been on. I've seen posts that... well, let me just say, if I'd seen them on most other forums the person would immediately have been pulverized by the level of bashing. If a person was honestly chased away by this forum... I don't know that they can survive just about anywhere on the internet, sombre or not. I would invite these people to think back carefully. We do have a few members who have no problem being rude whenever they feel like it. But we also always have members that will come in and stick up for the new guy, or just calmly and politely answer their questions. I can't imagine it's really as bad as all that.

Then again, I've been on the internet since I was 8, so maybe I'm unreasonably inured to general crustiness.


By the way, someone earlier said that sombre doesn't play any MP games... that's not true. He does play MP, usually small games with mod nations, primarily dominated by the IRC crowd. Ever see the scruntlefut or spumbum games? Doesn't really matter, but I'm the sort that likes to point out these things :)

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

A bird flying free
Inspires the non-fliers
Life is never free

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

was that supposed to be a Haiku? :o cause it isn't a proper Haiku if it was meant to be one ;)

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Yeah impressions are misleading. I keep hearing that I dont irc, or mp, or mod. :)

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

To be fair gandalf, the impression that you don't MP might come from yourself, as you have said more than once that you are much more of an SP player than mp ;)

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

You forget that Gandalf uses a secret identity when in MP ..... at least when he signs up ;)

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Nahhh thats only where I have a known presence not really conducive to combat. Like a moderator or adminstrator slot.
Otherwise I never had to worry about that.

You might be amazed to find out all the people you have played and didnt know it.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Shh, you shouldn't say things like that. Didn't you know that having multiple accounts is against the forum rules? (see article 10)

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

He didnt say this forum. Or even Dom3. I even treat my MUD that way and thats since the birth of the net.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

True, true.

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Apropos of nothing in particular ... I'm bummed that two of my favorite Dom3 modders have left these forums. I don't post much, but I do lurk, and I've been checking back for new versions of Sombre's and Burnsaber's mods. I have a lovely SP game going right now with the Ogre Kingdoms....

I'm not taking sides, because I have no idea what all of the fuss was. I'm just bummed. :(

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

The members you seek can now be found here:

http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/index.php?

Re: OT: Let’s all take a deep breath
 

Thanks for the link. I've already looked in on the new modding forums. A bit ... rougher ... than the Shrapnel forums, but I expected that.

I also read the various locked threads about the whole incident. Now I have an opinion, and I have decided which "side" I believe to be right. The issue appears to be a "done deal" now, so I won't try to re-open it. I'll just say that the only reason to keep playing a game as old as Dom3 is the user community, which just took a hit that it didn't need to take and might not survive....