Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

i think 11 players is a fair number for this map and gives a decent opportunity of everyone getting a reasonable start... so my vote would say full - sorry SplendidTuesday

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Playing the devil's advocate:

Lands: 199 land + 22 sea (3 are landlocked, so 19 for UW nations)
players: 9 land + 2 sea

Average: 22 land province per land nation, 9.5 sea province for sea nation

I would love to see another land player ;-)

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Yes, but look at the map - there are vast areas of wasteland and low pop provinces.

Anyway, what land nation is going into the water early? The water nations get it all to themselves. The land provinces will be contested by many more players.

The map designer says the map is good for 8-10 players... why go 12?

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Ah ah, but ocean isn't exactly high pop either, not to mention the city province and the 2-3x more gem income, in fact waste gives much higher chance of gem income.

Also we are getting ocean to ourselves yeah, oceania + R'yleth, you make it sound like an advantage to start in a deathmatch arena 1v1. Not early killing the other UW nation isn't doable as our 9.5 province will kill us in the mid-long run compared to a 22 avg province gold and gem income of your average land nation.

CBM makes water entry easier, and we'll on average be bordered on by many more teams then an average land nation will be with the water smack in the middle. Yes water is a barrier, but not so much as it'd be in vanilla, together with the fact that us UW nations will on average be much weaker and shaky NAP at best. I won't go into the multiple likely scenarios during mid and late game.

Now make no mistake, I actually love a tight spot and in fact I knew all this before I picked R'yleth, it makes for a tougher exciting game and I deliberately picked a 2nd UW due to this (and my love for R'yleth of course!). Diplomacy is gonna be real interesting for this one :up: But to suggest that the above situation is an advantage... :eek:

Either way I'm fine with 11 or 12 player, one extra nation won't make a difference to me. The designer suggested 8-10, I don't see why we go 11, or 12, or why the suggested limit matters at all?

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Verjigorm, nice propaganda about Ashdod. pulling off stats when commonly banned nations are involved is pure propaganda in my book. for a relatively experienced players such as yourself to be wanting to play Ashdod is nothing short of hypocrisy Imho, especially when this game is generally newbie friendly, not an expert's game. P.S Pythium isn't the strongest MA nation barring Ashdod, Jotunheim is probably stronger, and a few other nations are certainly up there with them. MA is probably the most balanced era of all 3 due to the lack of real blood nations and ridiculous blesses(still possible of course but EA dominates MA in that regard).

Finalgenesis, starting in a death match isn't as bad as you make it sound. it's kill or be killed for Oceania/R'lyeh but whoever wins gains a massive advantage. a much larger advantage than a land nation gets for rushing and destroying another land nation.

oh yeah and if you really don't want a death match you can avoid it, both Oceania and R'lyeh can enter the land pretty well, and in CBM Amulet of the Fish only requires W1 which all water nations have access to, so bringing aquatic commanders(say thugs, mages, etc) onto land is easy. aquatic troops are more problematic, but both R'lyeh and Oceania have a good selection of amphibious troops, so that isn't a problem either...

also water nations have a massive edge as far as gem economy goes, thanks to Voice of Tiamat which is a staple for any UW nation. makes your gem income sky rocket much faster than land nations, and with all the oceans to yourself(if you got into the death match and won) you maintain a massive lead.

oh yeah, and while in CBM entering the water isn't as hard as it used to be for land nations, they still suffer from the poor amphibian trait and of course from research paths that are useful above the seas for not below them(most of the Evocation line for example).

yes being UW also has its disadvantages, but it's not as black as you're trying to make it seem, I've simply showed a lot of the white to counter your blackness. the truth, as always, is somewhere in the middle...



so anyway, are we decided on CBM+EGD? and I must strongly encourage you to ban Ashdod, and especially not let a relatively experienced player as Verjigorm take it... if you insist on not banning them than give them to a first timer in MP or something, otherwise ban. it's sad that Verjigorm's propaganda worked on you so well, congratulations Verjigorm. but for me, now I know more who I'm dealing with(or well, against) and I'll keep that in mind for the future, your reputation already precedes you, this is just a small addition ;)

and 1 last thing for this long post, diplomacy. binding diplomacy is a nice concept, but in the end if someone breaks a diplomatic agreement there's not much you can do about it to enforce this rule besides stopping the game or some other ridiculously extreme move. now, this concept works in games where people know each other and have a certain degree of trust, such as the Gentleman's game that was around(not sure if it's finished yet or not). here we obviously don't know each other that much, and all these talks on good faith clauses and whatnot says a lot about the level of trust between the players in this game, almost non existent, as is expected with unknowns...

otherwise Machiavellian is the default because there's no need for unnecessary enforcement. however even in Machiavellian diplomacy, people who break NAPs are hurting their reputation, and others will know not to trust them in future games, so there's always a trade off. now, there are games that specifically encourage backstabbing, so in those it's more acceptable to well, backstab, but in normal Machiavellian games there's still a pretty large incentive to keep up to your word.

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

If Greyjoy's friend doesn't show up, may I take his spot?

Otherwise, I'm fine with this being full.

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Either of the water nations will rush the other resulting in a nice inaccessible domain for the winner. If you think a land nation is going to be gearing up for an initial assault into the water you are dreaming. Who in their right mind is going to go into the sea when there are hostiles on land to contend with first?

And the limit matters because it gives all starters a shot at making it to the mid game. Why even bother playing if there is a possibility due to a lack of good capital sites that several of your neighbouring provinces have no resources and < 2000 pop?

The game was advertised as an MA romp with 10 players on the Cradle map. I signed up for that... Now its 11 well ok, but not 12 - not on this map. Someone will end up with a crap start which is unnecessary if the nation limit is observed.

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Actually, I think Kadelake should make the call - democracy is rubbish for getting things done.

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Yeah one of the things with these MP games is that the players stays around after the game ends, which means rep matters and being too evil will haunt you in the long term. Of course, "if you can't enforce it then don't make it a rule" is always a good, when I say good faith non-binding, I guess the good faith part is unneeded and a bit misleading, let actual repercussions do the talking!

The way I see the UW deathmatch situation is that I don't see neither side rolling up the other quickly unless they get some horrendous luck, and likely the ocean won't be unified until midgame or so at the earliest, thats a lot of turns where you have you are locked in mortal combat with an inherent lower income / gem and thereby research. Even assuming all land nations are fighting it out in death matches, they are doing so with avg 22 provinces apiece.

I would conjecture also that there is a lot of interest from land not to see ocean unified and thereby intervene (god knows I would if I see 2 wounded small fish duking it out) , though only experience can tell, maybe they'll be more preoccupied with Ashod's power or something. Another thing is if you own the whole ocean (or just half for that matter), your looking at bordering 6-8 nations from as the water province placement, though this admittedly could be an advantage (a tough one), whereas an average sized land nation will likely border 3-4 nations or so, with a larger income and potential gem generation.

Getting to land without securing the ocean seems unfeastible to me, land nations will want to kick you in and the other UW nation will make you regret diverting too resource shore side.

Now as a disclaimer, all these things I've laid out are partly to serve as a backdrop for my diplomacy effort in-game (I'm poor, weak and locked in mortal combat, you can drop your guard around me! :D), and I've certainly thought out some strategies suited for my situation. In fact, I derive a lot of enjoyment from doing analysis and work out various scenarios and their strategies, the bleaker it seems the more fun it is to plan and survive, so Blackguard stop popping my bubble of black :angel I just hope I get to the late game at this point!

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

I'm popping your bubble because you're already using your own propaganda before the game even begun, and are trying to use it to affect pregame decisions(such as the number of players in the game).

now, propaganda aside, you chose to be an UW nation, you know what you get from it. don't try to squeeze hidden advantages from game settings due to playing what you chose to play...

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Indeed!

Hence my reasoning that Kakelake make the decisions. I'm all for scheming and manipulation, but in game - not in an attempt to skew the setup to your benefit. 10/10 for trying though FG!

Edit to add: The game is up on the server now for 11 players so the debate is academic...

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Wow, that's some heavy popping my friend. I fear I have no choice but to defend myself. Allow me to disagree with you:

- Influencing events for my gain? Sure, If you’re a player in the game I don’t see why your not allowed to bring relevant information to people's attention for your gain. And I see it all the time, ex. Asking for Ashod not to be in a game (as valid as it may be); suggesting a 2nd UW nation to be allowed as a single UW is more powerful/annoying; doing counter-propaganda ...etc, frankly I think at least for propaganda and counter propaganda you can wring some good fun out of it at least. I suppose I can sort of see how this is a grey area, but I'm not really seeing this clear line that your implying.

- I've never complained about my starting circumstances as your saying, in fact I thought I made it clear, no, emphasized that I wanted the nation precisely because of it. Whine? Never! Manipulate events for my benefit? Of course! (I'm no saint)

- Honestly, as I've said before, the 11 or 12 player deal didn't really mattered to me, though I won't deny that I'd accept a 12 ppl game with a smile. I was more interested in getting my analysis of the UW nations situation out for propaganda value in diplomacy at game start. (Though it's an honest analysis on my part, I just might as well wring some propaganda value out of it)

- If anything, I am closer to raising honest analysis to give my opening diplomacy more room when the game start. Let me see if I understand this correctly, the "Do not-s" that you are pointing out is that I'm doing this before the game starts?

-In a way, all those post asking for strats and so forth from players about to start MP games are in the same vein as my analysis here. I see the same MP game participants join the thread and work with the post alongside the poster, and I'd laugh if someone told me there's no scheming and tactical maneuvering in those post, the difference is perhaps I just come right out and say it.

Maybe I was misreading your the tone from your post and your really just playing along through counter-propaganda, if so I apologize, otherwise though I really must beg to differ.

Honestly I'm just trying to have fun and thought I have done it in an acceptable manner as outlined above. I will hereby thank Amadamus for being a good sport and playing along :D Yes I tried, maybe I tried too hard?

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Finalgenesis, i pretty much read it as a counter to your spin - truth is irrelevant, all that really matters is how it looks to the punters...

Interesting session of banter however. Looking forward to the game and what may become of us all!

Enjoy all those gems you farm out of the oceans whilst we land types squabble over the ownership of poor value provinces.

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

And to counter your riposte, I sayeth "Enjoy shooting two fish in a barrel!"

Looking forward to it!

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Finalgenesis, if only all the information you presented was correct, truthful and objective than I would have laid it to rest. however you didn't even make an attempt to try, you simple chose to present the weaknesses of your UW position without any of its strengths, and in return asked for more land players so we'll be on more "even grounds". this statement is pure propaganda and is the main reason I started bursting your bubble. moreover, pregame diplomacy is perhaps the lowest you can go as far as propaganda spreading goes, we didn't even start for crying out loud!

now, since you insist, I'll give you some of your UW position's strengths, in your face, as counter propaganda. so, here we go:
1. free forts via pretty common nature sites UW, which both MA Oceania and R'lyeh can search right from the start.
2. Voice of Tiamat is the best remote site searching spell in the game!
3. once(if) the death match is over it's hard for any land nation to really contest the oceans due to your obvious superiority in UW battles and focused research(for the death match), while land nations focus their research elsewhere.
4. killing 1 opponent(your UW neighbor) makes your position so much stronger than a land nation killing even 2-3 of his neighbors(in the early game that is).
5. your ability to harass land powers is much greater than the land power's ability to harass you UW.

I hope this is enough for now, I could dig up more, and nation specific too, if you insist. now with your propaganda and my counter propaganda to you, everyone should be able to see the real picture and I expect people to know the UW's nations strengths and weaknesses even before all this mess...

now, lets see how many players we'll have playing, and what mods we'll use if any(CBM, EGD, vanilla), the sooner we know this information the sooner we can all start testing our pretender choices until we find the pretender we're happy with, so we can finally get this game going. now lets stop with all this pregame bull**** and wait for the game to actually start!

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

The game is (re)-created as Apotheosis3. Mods: CBM 1.6, EGD 1.4. We'll keep the 11 player maximum. Diplomacy is not enforced. Ashdod is allowed.

SplendidTuesday: Sorry, the game is full right now. If a spot becomes free for some reason I'll send you a PM.

Greyjoy's friend: I noticed that you've uploaded you pretender. Please get your forum account working and post something here. I can't let you join otherwise.

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Well, I must apologize that my analysis was not "correct, truthful and objective" to your brand of truth. I did thought it was a honest summation on the predicaments I face, I didn't quite expect a full comprehensive laundry list breakdown of the pros and cons to be required. Do people really want me to spell out that MA R'yleth can do mind-hunts, have stealth astral mage assassins, that water provinces tend to have easier indies ...etc? If you would like, I certainly wouldn't mind you filling in the whole Objective truths for me, after all, you are perfectly objective and incapable of pure propaganda if I'm reading you right.

In the context of counter-propaganda I'd take it like a champ, but your implication of that I was "dirty" and "low" outside of the context of the game just made me laugh. For the sake of civility I won't quote any hypocrisy I spotted unless, of course, you insist.

Hmmm well... you may certainly drop your pregame bullpoop if you like, I don't mind. I would object to you enforcing your special brand of saintly justice on me though. In fact, just let me enjoy my "bullpoop" with other willing participants instead of picking it up and smearing yourself with it. You know, it'll make you dirty, why subject yourself to it? :eek:

Well it's gotten to that point :doh:, I think we can agree we have divergent opinions on the issue and abandon further discourse on this matter, it is obvious neither of use will change our mind and further discussions would be... counter-productive.

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Fine, fine. That's 2 against Ashdod, so if you will permit me to switch, I'll take...

Abysia

instead.

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Please calm down everyone. Diplomacy and propaganda are best kept until the game start.

I think it's high time we get the game going. I'll PM everyone who haven't joined and tell them they can upload their pretenders now :)

As for starting positions... You can never count on them being fair, even with fewer players. Some people will draw the short straw. Happened to me last game I played, I was stuck in the middle of a swamp, surrounded by wasteland on one side and Lanka on the other. Kind of thematic for Sauromatia but it still sucked :p
So what I'm trying to say is: try not to get angry at a bad starting position.

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Do as you like. I'm ok with Ashdod as well.

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Oh, and for the record Mr. Blackguard, as to my experience, it is primarily in Dominions 2. ^_^

This is my 4th MP game, my first 3 are Countdown, Nubash, and Stackers respectively. Stackers is winding down for me, I'm getting creamed as MA Man vs. Jotes and Bandar, so I picked this one up.

I have yet to complete an MP game, so that would mean that I am a noob. I have a natural aptitude toward strategy games which should not necessarily translate into experience, but I agree with you about Ashdod after testing them and I was considering switching anyway. I have never played as Ashdod before, but I just can't get over the cool factor of all the dudes. Unfortunately, a dab of Alteration and a rush into Construction makes Ashdod almost insurmountable... and those undead giants...

Oh my god Thug...

Anyway, I hope you shall be gracious enough to let me tweak my Abysia pretender. It won't be long and I'll probably be ready by the time everyone else is anyway. ^_^

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

I take it that the game is now named "Apotheosis3"?

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Yes, due to some server problems :)

Re: Apotheosis (The game is online again!) [Send in your pretenders]
 

Game started, good luck everyone! :)

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

luck is good! :) you too!

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

Request for Extension

I am going camping this weekend Friday, June 25th through Sunday, June 27th. I will be back Sunday Evening, and I am in the CDT Time Zone (GMT - 5 in Summer). I would prefer a weekend extension, but if you want to go through the hassle of changing around settings so that I can get a sub for 2 turns, that's up to you. I can probably get a sub very easily, but there's no way I'm giving out my e-mail account info to anyone under any circumstances.

Anyway... Let me know what you want to do. If you give the extension, it should start Friday afternoon. I would say setting it on 72 hour quick-host with the timer starting Friday afternoon would be appropriate if you're going for the extension. If you want a weekend sub, let me know.

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

Ha! Is that a record for the earlyest extension request? ;)

I'm OK with the extension request - no sub this early.

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

I suppose I could use this time to do some prelim diplo, if only to establish communication and some vague understanding.

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

I think we should end the first turn(no idea why llamaserver says it hosts on Friday, should be 24 hour turns, shouldn't it...?) so than we can extend the second turn until Sunday evening/Monday morning for Verjigorm.

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

Well, relative to my other current matches, I've gone 54, 64, and 39 turns without requesting a vacation, so... I'm kinda due for one. Of course, this one just started, so...

It'll be fun to be without Internet for a little bit. ;)

Maybe I'll bust out the Magic the Gathering cards....

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

Bring a laptop with a mobile internet connection. That's what I'll do this weekend :D Ok, I'll extend the turn over the weekend. It's probably only 2 turns anyway.

Regarding extensions and subs:I prefer temporary subs over extensions. Just send sub's email to me and I'll change the settings, it's not much of a hassle. Extensions are possible as well, but if you know someone who can fill in it would be best.

13lackGu4rd: Yes, I also noticed the long hosting time. I assume the first turn is longer in case someone didn't notice that the game has started. It's on quickhost so it won't matter much. Hopefully we will get two turns done before Verjigorm leaves.

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

lol! I'm not buying a cellular internet device with a contract just to play Dom3 for one weekend... If I already had one, though, I'd use it (and, no, I don't have a tethering option either).

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

I suspected as much :D

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

River is flooded! I may be Internet enabled this weekend... I'll update tomorrow when I know more.

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

Tien Chi appears to be in danger of staleing on turn 1? Any ideas?

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

Ask SplendidTuesday whether he is interested with subbing (or possible full replacement if Greyjoy doesn't come back)?

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

Nah, I'm here. I'm just a procrastinating schmuck.

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

Good to know you haven't left us Grey!

Btw, I just found out that the score table on llama server is very informative and better then score graph in game in some cases, in case you're as noob as I am:

http://www.llamaserver.net/showScore...me=Apotheosis3

Having never used MA Pythium, I didn't know their capital site gave 8 gems a turn @@. It's interesting seeing how high people ramp up their tax on T1, I may have to experiment with this strategy hmmm...

Learning quite a bit just looking at the score table.

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

Your early turn tax ramp depends on the map speed and number of units you start the game with. It's usually between 120 and 140, though I'm sure there are people who go higher. The early patrol can last generally from 1 to 3 turns depending on how high Strength of Independents has been set and how squishy your initial troops are.


If you take an Awake Keeper of the Bridge, you can get some serious early money boost.

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

Yeah my standard tax ramp so far is only 120% - 140% depending on my initial troops (higher for caelum), never thought of 200% as a shot booster which I'll have to experiment with.

I'd be curious to see how fast an expansion boost Pythium gets from it, and even more curious how he mitigates the subsequent gold income hit from all that unrest.

Keeper of the bridge option sounds very cool on tax ramp patrol, didn't thought of that! I wonder how big an effect lady love has...

Edit: just tested and she's amazing, she can keep a 200% tax rate stable at 10-20 unrest for turns on end just by being there.

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

Well it seems like we have 3 days or so before the next turn will process.

I might as well do some diplomacy and sit in the forum chat channel while I'm writing em all up, if anyone would like to discuss vague diplomacy (at this point of the game) or just shoot the breeze, feel free to drop in.

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

no point to discuss diplomacy this early, before we even know who our neighbors are... heck, even trading offers are too early as we're just in turn 2, so nobody is even close to construction2(not to mention 4) even if they're rushing construction research, unless they took an awake rainbow to rush research, but in that case I doubt construction would be the research target...

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

Diplomacy too vague this early on for true efficacy? I agree, hence my qualifier in previous post.

Completely useless? I disagree

1 example: early diplomacy between R'yleth <> Oceania would definitely not be pointless.

I'd actually enjoy discussing the things you can do with vague early diplomacy and its limitation, though perhaps either after the game or with people not in this MP game.

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

Pushing all-bands diplomacy is *exhausting*, especially with limited intel as per Dom3. Even at my best to date I've stuck to threadposts and those within intel distance. (Mostly.)

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

I'm having some trouble with my turn file :(
It arrives corrupted and requesting a resend doesn't seem to fix it. I've contacted llamabeast to see if he can fix it.

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

You need an extension? I won't mind at all seeing I may possibly stale this turn as it's looking like an all nighter at office...

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

I don't know. I haven't heard from llamabeast yet. Contact me if you need an extenstion.

It's possible that the turn file is corrupted even on the server. Then I guess the only alternatives are to roll back the turn or accept a stale :(

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

try to delete the 2h file than redownload it from the mail. it usually worked for me when I had corrupt files.

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

I humbly request an extension for a day, there is no chance for me make it home tonight. I've pmed you also Kad.

My apologies in advance to everyone.

Re: Apotheosis [Running]
 

Thanks for the tip, Blackguard. Sadly it didn't work.
I've extended the turn 24h.