Re: Merkava.
 

Pilots also train for ejecting the craft and evading enemy pursuit on the ground, though I guess they hope they will not have to do so IRL, same for lots of other drills and lots of other battlefield expedient solutions (like using tank destroyers and SP howitzers as assault guns etc.).

Re: Merkava.
 

Please go back and CAREFULLY READ the information on the site posted on page 1. Find the links in the articles and read those and watch the videos. It will take the good part of a day to take it all in.
If you still don't belive any of it then you must belive that the author, an Israeli tank Commander, is just telling stories and the picture of his 11 man tank crew is just a picture of a group of his friends. After all, it's all just a "parlor trick".

Re: Merkava.
 

Kevin. I have dial up and because of that anything on YouTube I avoid at all costs. The last Video I attempted to watch, which was, incidentally, one you posted a link to, took 50 minutes to get me 60 seconds of video and I have better things to do that wait 3 hours for a video to load

As much as I sympathize with the Israelis I am also aware they are quite adept at propaganda. They have to be because their "opponents" are adept at it as well. What I want to know is this..... is there a video, shot in one continuous shot, ( NOT edited for camera angles NOT photos of four guys ready to emerge and the other four out of camera range ) of 8 troops emerging from the back of a Merkava ?

My rough calculations indicate you would need a space roughly 7 .5 feet long and 5.5 feet wide to put 8 troops. ( they would really have to like each other.....) Given the hull is nearly 25 feet long and just over 12 feet wide that would be around 14 % of the available interior hull volumn so it's not a stretch to believe this is possible even though no other tank in the world has that capability.

BTW, we have tested the things as Gun APC's and they don't do anything radically weird in an AI advance

Don

Re: Merkava.
 

I've read through this thread several times. It is good reading with beer and pretzels. Anyhow, while they could squeeze 8 troops in there, it was as pointed out before ad-hoc and not doctrine.

All varieties of Merks were designed as MBT. The rear exit was designed to allow the crew to exit relatively safely if needed. Somewhere along the line, someone noticed it could be used for troops as well. That doesn't make it doctrine.

I've watched the various videos. The YouTube videos are clearly of a promotional variety, showing much of the same footage. The four men shown exiting the vehicle are lightly equipped and oddly armed. They could be an LMG, a sniper rifle, some variety of M16 with the M203 attached and some sort of SMG w/folding stock. And heaven forbid they have to get out in a hurry, because that didn't seem to be happening. In those videos, the 12 main round storage canisters have been removed. If you want to hear the loudest cry of anguish in the world, tell a tanker you are going to take away over 80% of his main gun ammo on a regular basis.

Another thing that has been pointed out is the Namer has been created as a heavy APC for the IDF. Depending on the source, it puts them as having capability to care 2-3 crew members and 9 fully equipped troops. They have removed all the ammo and the turret basket and for all that, all they could accomplish was make space for heavier equipment for the troops? If that is the best they could do, it sounds like it is highly unlikely to try to squeeze 8 men into a Merk on a regular basis.

That is the point of the topic at hand: Doctrine. There are many things that have been done on an ad-hoc basic. It doesn't make it doctrine. Comments and videos in one website, albeit a very large one, doesn't make it doctrine. Used in as a heavy APC in one relatively small campaign doesn't make it doctrine either. Prove this to be doctrine and people will listen. Don and Andy have gone through efforts to accommodate special requests where practical, without compromising commonly excepted ideas of realism.

If there is a niche that any one of us wants to fill by modding our units, we have been given the ability to do so. Make your change, play the game and be happy. If it is changed in the game for all, the AI will make it game doctrine, even if it real doctrine. We will see those Merks as HAPCs all over the place, even if it isn't really used that way.

Re: Merkava.
 

DRG,

In the site posted on page one there is a section on the history of the Merkava. The propaganda issue is valid to an extent. When the MkI was first shown to the public 10 troops came out the back and the Israelis bragged about their tanks versitility. A short while later they said it could not carry troops. After 2006 and the conflict in Lebanon they again admitted thet troops could be caried. This back and forth and the Israelis being in an almost constant state of war makes research on the Merkava difficult at best. Much of the interior of the Merkava is still classified.

On the Tanknet website under Tank videos there is a 38 to 40 second video taken by a member of the inside of a old Merkava tank. It's not of great quality. When he gets to the rear of the vehicle you can plainly see 12 empty main gun ammo containers lining the rear compartment. They are stacked 2 deep and 3 high on each side of the hull. The man with the camers has no trouble moving between the stacked ammo boxes to exit the rear door of the vehicle.

This video can be found on Tanknet in the AFV forums under tank videos. It's in the first post on page 2. posted by Zakk.

Dial up stinks. I had it for the longest time and it realy limits your options.

I'm glad to hear that the AI works ok with this option in play. I only tried it in human played mode.

Re: Merkava.
 

RERomine,

Thanks for at least reading the website.

Firstly doctrine changes by nessesity or a shift in tactical thought. If it did not the US would never have made the Stryker.

If not ment to carry troops or if not doctrine why the sniper port in the read door of some Merkavas? This feature will be on all Namer HAPCs.

The ammo is no longer packed in crates as shown in the above thumb-nail. They all come in their own container. Could this allow the ammo load to be shifted from the rear compartment to areas around or under the turret basket? Just enough to carry 50 rounds and 8 troops? Remember 10 rounds are already in the turret in the automatic magazine on MkIV. What about the article that mentions a possible 105mm ammo load of 92 rounds if no troops are carried or about 80 rounds of 120mm? Look up and then explain the Merkava "Tankbulance". 3 stretcher cases, 3 man medical team, life support and enough gear to perform emergency operations. Yet it can still with all this aboard fight like a tank. This version is said to have a reduced ammo load for the main gun but it still looks like anyother Merkava and hits just as hard.

The Namer is a very roomy vehicle but as you said only has 8 passenger/troop seats. The Namer is set to replace most if not all other APCs now in inventory with the IDF. It now carries 3 weapons if you count the Soltam 60mm mortar. The 50cal mounted on the R-OWS can be swaped out for a Mk19 AGL. In the near future the IFV varriant may mount a 30mm Bushmaster, coax 7.62 MG and a twin Spike ATGM launch tube mounted on a R-OWS. While the weapon will not protrude in any way into the troop compartment much of that extra space seen now will be used up to store the larger 30mm rounds and extra Spike missiles.

Mobhack,

I posted the question on Tanknet in the AFV forums. Never recived a notification from them. I just checked and was able to post today. Lets see what happens.

Re: Merkava.
 

Agreed, but has it happened with the Merkava beyond ad-hoc. Versions of the Merkava have been around for roughly 36 years. Has carrying troops in the Merkava developed into an standard practice documented in IDF training manuals? I will admit that if it has, such manuals aren't readily available in the local book store. Also, I find very few references to the capability on the internet as well. There are some, but the number of sites that omit any references at all seems to vastly out number those that do mention it.

This one you would have to ask the designers or tankers who had input into the design. I would take a guess that it would be nice to know the rear of the tank is clear before the crew bails out if they need to. Keep in mind, a sniper is one person with light gear. The Merkava could carry one person extra person without off loading any ammo and the one person should not hinder operations of the tank.

I'm not sure what you mean by they all come in their own container. In one photo, I saw rounds in their own shipping tubes, but you wouldn't put the tubes in the tank. Just the rounds would be loaded. No matter anyhow. I also can see an extra 24 rounds being loaded at the expense of being able to use the rear exit. That gives it 82 rounds with that load.

As far as the Tankbulance, I have read two stretchers from other sources, not three. Despite the fact the website you provided says three, a picture in the same website shows only two and basic life saving equipment. I seriously doubt they are going to have a doctor on board. Even removing a splinter, he is likely to do more harm than good unless the vehicle is standing still, not shooting and not getting hit. Medics are enough. Stabilize and evacuate. That is their role.

How it impacts the passenger compartment remains to be seen. ATGMs aren't all that small and have to be stored properly, which takes up space. Don't be surprised if it reduces the number of passengers that can be carried. That is if we even find out anytime in the near future. It is unlikely the IDF will publish details in the newspaper.

Do you understand where you are getting resistance from with respect to the change you have requested? I don't think anyone has really questioned that the Merkava can carry troops or that you can fit eight in there, albeit lightly equipped and tight. It still boils down to whether the tactic has made it to mainstream doctrine. Maybe somewhere it is in doctrine on dealing with terrorists and guerrillas who don't have tanks. I highly doubt they would use such a tactic against an enemy who can field hundreds or thousands of tanks. That is the type of war that threatens their very livelihood and that is the type of war their doctrine is going to be built around. If you can show that carrying troops is part of the IDF principle doctrine, I would be surprised if your requested change didn't occur.

Re: Merkava.
 

Your tanknet post produced virtualy the result expected, can use in an emergency to evacuate but are used with a couple of men on board which is pretty much if you remember how said played when I modified let it carry a scout unit.
Makes sense Israel likes to protect there men so best protected & crucialy fastest vehicle forward, tank commander can stay in the tank & let his passengers go for a look maybe even launch a little hand held UAV.
Or they can check a firing location for suitability & then take up position to defend it from RPGs given opponent.
They also have the ability to field command tanks easily, 2 guys & some electronics could probably fit & still carry a decent ammo load.

Re: Merkava.
 

You better go back. Its getting interesting. A member posted as 5-alef is elusive at best. When another member said that the "few" infantry sat between the ammo boxes in the back 5-alef said,

"at the exit and to the sides - where ever there is space"

In the you-tube videos posted here there are 5 men in the back, 4 combat troops and the photographer. Freeze the frame just as the rear doors let in the light. Notice where the men are sitting and the possition of the overhead hand rails. Now go to Tanknet and look at the nice photos posted of the rear compartment of a Mk on my thread.
Also remember that the man commenting on how little space is in the tank is a little over 6 feet tall. (1.95 m)

Re: Merkava.
 

Kevin go back & reread all the posts it was Alef who said 1 or 2 men & has now elaborated THEY sit to the sides. He is not going to give much more away do not pi&@ them off its classified. Thats all I have to say on the subject Don & Andy can read it & decide the outcome.

Re: Merkava.
 

Don't read too much into what wasn't said. This is what he said...

Everything I'm reading is saying they aren't going to off load their ammo to carry 8 men or for that matter a 4-man scout team. From one of the photos out there, it looks like if they had 3 men, the third would be standing on the floor of the turret basket. There could be health risks if the turret is rotated to any degree, but that is only my impression based on the photo so take that worth a grain of salt. Kevin, you raise a similar question that hasn't been answered yet.

5-alef didn't go into any details as to how this tactic is used, which is appropriate and expected, however. Also, emphasized was DID. That honestly can be taken any number of ways, but his intentional vagueness leaves us to draw our own conclusions (in the past; during his experience; obsolete tactic). You might get a vote for 2-3 men, provided isn't a crew served weapons team.

Looking at some of the other photos, I wouldn't take those containers as seats, even though you can certainly sit on them. I wouldn't want to be on one of the handles on top, as they don't look very comfy. I'm not sure what those containers would be.

While there could be more answers, have we really gotten anything we didn't already figure out ourselves?

Re: Merkava.
 

I already agreed with all those concerned, whatever amount of infantry carried NO HEAVY OR CREW SERVED WEAPONS.

5-alef says that armored infantry was carried in some tank durring the 2006 Lebanon conflict. But no numbers. I have a funny feeling that any other numbers than the ones I found on a few sites and that are mentioned in a few videos is all that we will be able to find.

The only for sure is that ten soldiers came out of a Merkava MkI the day is was first shown to the public.

The Merkava can carry two stretcher cases inside the tank.

How many men can sit in the space of a standard military stretcher?

Re: Merkava.
 

How many rounds are given up to give space for the stretchers?
And how gutted was that "showtime" Merkava?
And you have numbers. 2-3 fully loaded max., 1-2 usually.

Re: Merkava.
 

It is pretty safe that they can indeed squeeze in a full infantry squad or a couple of strecher and assorted medical equipment, a command post or whatever.
The thing is, it appears that these are niche uses which require significant ammo trade offs. Said tanks will be be supported by others and will retain some rounds for self defense or short actions, so for the intended purpose it is not a problem.
You have already been told that with full ammo it is 2-3 combat troops, usually less, which seems reasonable for a tank of that size.
There will inevitably be a gray area between what is expedient and what is doctrine, what is feasible only for special circumstances and what can be used as standard and obviously between the various different models of the tank.
But what everyone here and on tanknet is telling you is that no, you can't have your cake (a full ammo load) and then eat it (carry around a full infantry squad). Given we are talking about a tank apparently not much bigger than others western types and the trade offs inherent in increasing armored volume in an AFV it is hardly surprising.
For it to be different it would raise the question of how it was accomplished, it is not like that every other tank designer is a moron. Even if nobody else was interested in carrying around troops extra ammo or fuel would be always useful, at least as potential. But that cannot be had without paying a price.

Just because you can squeeze extra ammo in some apparently empty space it does not mean that
1) It won't get in the way of something or someone during actual operations.
2) It will actually remain out of the way once the tank hits the first big pothole or whatever.

Re: Merkava.
 

Given the configuration of the stretchers, I would say you could get four, as long as they are friendly. The photo is obviously of a display model and not in a real vehicle, but the ammo has been remove (aside from the 10 rounds that would be carried elsewhere) which seems to be something no one has said would be done. This is a special configuration and 10 are proposed and supposed to be the the field sometime this year.

Re: Merkava.
 

RERomine,

Thanks for posting that picture!

The Merkava "Tankbulance" has a reduced ammo load. No one is saying how reduced but with the whole rear compartmen reconfigurd and the extra equipment etc. it for sure is carrying NO ammo in that area.

Re: Merkava.
 

I'm still not sure where this "own container" thing is coming from. Photos from that website show shipping tubes where the rounds are being removed and ammo resupply taking place, without tubes.

Marcello, I completely agree. Even lap readying a round is frowned up, so having lots of ammo placed randomly within the tank would be ill advised.

Re: Merkava.
 

Not a problem on the picture. A lot of folks have said they have trouble getting to the site but I don't. While it seems to stretch the facts some, there are a lot of good pictures out there. I figured I would put some of the relevant pictures out here so everyone could see them.

Re: Merkava.
 

I had a few that I wanted to post but I kept getting the error message. The Tankbulance was one of them.

I belive thet on that site or one of the links you will find pics of those shell sleaves/protectors stuffed into the baskets at the rear of the tank. I to saw the pic of the crew loading unprotected rounds. It just makes no sence unless its an older Mk and the rounds are going to be repacked into the larger ammo crates.

Those sleaves are supposed to help prevent cook offs. The older bins held 2 or 4 rounds.

Re: Merkava.
 

I found the reference to the individual fire-proof canisters, but I don't think we've seen any pictures of them. The photo with the containers on the road, I'm sure those are just shipping tubes. Somewhere in the tank are the fire-proof canisters, so the rounds are removed from the shipping tube and loaded into the canisters. The upright ammo in the road is probably just some intermediate step, where the rounds have been removed from the shipping tubes, but not been stowed in the fire-proof canisters within the tank yet.

As to the caliber of the ammo, they look like 120mm rounds, but don't have combustible casings. The tank doesn't appear to be a Merk IV, because I don't see the rearward facing camera. I'm pretty sure it isn't a Merk I, also. That leaves Merk II or Merk III. If they are 105mm rounds, it is a II, if 120mm a III. Overall, I don't think it matters.

Re: Merkava.
 

RERomine,

Yes I see what you mean. It looks like the rounds are removed from the shipping tubes and then placed inside the tank.

Also the rounds in the "ready" magazine area are protected by the magazine. 5-10 rounds depending on Mk.

Now as to the stowage question I have some observations from the short video and the pictures on Tanknet.
Both show an early Mk of Merkava. The short video shows the 4 round containers stacked 6 to each side of the rear compartment much like the picture on the site poster here. Those containers do not belong in that tank. Its a MkI. The picture on my thread on Tanknet show 2 metal bins that look like they could hold about 6 rounds of 105mm ammo. This would match up with the description of secured storage of ammunition on a MkI. If I am correct about those metal bins there are only 12 rounds stored in the back of a MkI. With 5 or 6 at the ready station where are the other 42 rounds stored?
In the game the MkI holds 60 rounds of ammo for its 105mm gun. I have seen other numbers that seem correct up to 62 rounds. Now if you read the part about carrying troops and ammo storage one the site we have both been looking at here the author gives a main gun ammo load of only 47 rounds if carrying troops.
The hull of the MkIII is larger that the MkI and MkII. The MkIVs hull is slightly large than the MkIII. On the site posted here the author only gives the load out of 120mm ammo for the MkIV carrying troops. The Magazine in the MkIII I think only carries 5 rounds. With the smaller magazine the number of rounds stowed while carrying troops in a MkIII would be 5 to 7 rounds less than a MkIV.

With all the videos I have looked at the only rounds that are ever shown being used are those from a magazine of one kind or another. But if we look at the layouts of other tanks we see that ammo can and is stored almost anywhere it will fit.

Just some thoughts.

Edit: Its not a MKIV in the pic but it could be an early MkIII or an updated MkII. The MkIIs have been upgraded almost as much as they can be. MkIIIs going back for re-fit are comming out looking much like MkIVs. Good eye about the camera!

Re: Merkava.
 

See post # 26 on the thread I started on Tanknet. Good info on MkI and MkII ammo load out.

Re: Merkava.
 

The photo seems to show twelve 4-round containers and seem to be for 105mm rounds, so the numbers quoted from Jane's don't add up:

My math tells me that is eleven 4-round containers, but my eyes tell me twelve. The containers are obviously removable, so maybe they typically pull one of the 4-round containers and use the space for MG ammo storage. That is just a guess, however. I don't believe I've seen any pictures with 2-round containers, but I haven't really looked for them either.

As far as the two containers you are referring to possibly holding 105mm rounds, it is possible. My gut tells me it is something else. We know the 4-round containers were removable, so maybe they were taken out and these put in. Possible for one of those ad-hoc infantry missions. They could be used for equipment storage and make convenient, if uncomfortable seats. If you recall, commented before that the handles wouldn't be pleasant to be sitting on.

For the benefit of everyone else, I'll put those pictures out here as well.

Re: Merkava.
 

Thanks again.

And for those who have not seen this yet....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOZvoBL8d-k

Re: Merkava.
 

I think we have the reply we were waiting for on Tanknet. Its post #36 by DADI.

He knew about the metal bins in the pic posted here above.(Its not Merkava gear) He also gives a load out for the MkI and MkII of 14 rounds while carrying 8 men in full gear. carrying this many men does not restrict in any way the rotation of the turret. With a 1 or 2 man team it is possible to carry a full load of ammo. Now we just have to do a little math to figure out the rest.

Getting this kind of info on the MkIII and MkIV will probably not be possible at this time but it may be possible to come up with some kind of solution that will satisfy most players.

I have seen some of DADIs other posts and I trust his figures.

Re: Merkava.
 

What can you trust Israeli propaganda or the real truth?




Unique among the main battle tanks of the world, the Merkava design features a front-mounted power pack, which presents a heavy mass in the forward area, which protects the crew from enemy attack. This configuration also cleared room at the rear section for a safe exit and enough space to carry a few fully armed infantrymen, in addition to the crew. The rear access hatch allows for the quick and safe exit of injured crewmen or pickup of wounded soldiers for evacuation.



Source here:

http://www.defense-update.com/directory/merkava4.htm

Re: Merkava.
 

note can carry a "few" fully equiped infrantry..which means 3 at best.

The way Isreal trys to describe it as some kind of Hybride tank,that can do backflips and juggle all at the same time,is just plain PG BS.;)

Re: Merkava.
 

Kevin why not go read about 2006 as this was the documented period where squads were loaded. From memory not rereading so appologies if wrong.
First tank goes bang doing regular patrol work, parks up & deploys troops in the same few spots most days:doh:
The charge through the valley into the ATGM ambush also had troops on board.
These mistakes will not be repeated in a hurry & yes the tactic of troops on board was only a small part of the problem. Poor use of intel & shall we say overconfidence played a bigger factor while the Hez had been planing for months.
Will they ever use them as IFVs again or perhaps is this what is making them think sticking a GL or gun on the Namer is a good idea.
Perhaps Israels problem was they could not use the tanks as they wish because the APCs cant keep up so carrying some infantry seemed a good idea.

Re: Merkava.
 

gila,

With a full ammo load 2-3 troops. Thanks for the confirmation.

The Russians call the Merkava a hybrid.

Imp,

Carrying a few troops in the back (1-3) seems to have been common practice durring LIC operations. In a tank vs tank situation the Merks would probably not carry any infantry

In both Lebanon conflicts the Merks were pressed into service to transport infantry into areas where a normal APC would be a sitting duck to anyone with a RPG.

2006 was when these tactics were used the most and with the most men aboard. One tactic was to back the tank up to a breach or doorway of a building and let the squad or section out under full cover from small arms fire.

Re: Merkava.
 

Good thread,

Learned alot about the Merkava,although i've never used them in game,they have some interesting potential.

One thing that could happen from what has been uncovered, is maybe the dev's could create a a separate hybrid (apc class) with much lower main gun rounds to have a few infrantry inboard.

Re: Merkava.
 

gila,

It can be classed as a Gun APC (Tracked) Class # 127. I think DRG tested this with the AI and had no real problems.

Re: Merkava.
 

The AI will use a gun APC much like it does a tank.

Don

Re: Merkava.
 

The extra 8 rounds on the MkI and MkII are stowed in front of the engine fire wall between it and the turret basket. They are in 4, 2 round containers. This is why the tank can carry 14 rounds with only 6 in the ready possition on the floor of the basket.Info from DADI on Tanknet. Also gave some other load info for other weapons. Please look at the relevant posts on that site.

I may get access to a book written by a Tanknet member (Marsh) on the Merkava. Maybe this will clear away more of the fog.;)

Re: Merkava.
 

I am quite capable of reading tanknet, since I pointed you that way in the first place.

The thing will be modelled in the way we decide. No further discussion required.

Andy

Re: Merkava.
 

Andy,

I never should have brought it up and I won't again HERE. F-OFF you close minded puke!

So long guys. Just trying to help.

Re: Merkava.
 

Kevin, that isn't called for. What you did was brought up a suggestion and it was politely turned down. You kept pushing for what you wanted and seem surprised people are getting irritated you won't let it go. I mentioned what you needed to do to get your argument heard, prove it to be doctrine. Instead, you kept on focusing on what can be instead of what it really is and how it is used. You got your answer long before today. Time to move on and accept if for what it is.

Re: Merkava.
 

We got there weeks ago thanks.

Re: Merkava.
 

Whilst it is true that the Merkava has an interesting niche capability it probably isn't as unique as you'd think.

It is one thing to cram troops in the back but I can assure you that without restraints and well designed seating going cross country at speed in a heavy armoured vehicle is simply downright dangerous. It certainly feels rather dangerous even with the above!

As for the numbers I've heard stories of 27 troops with bergans in the back of a Warrior, its strange what the prospect of a 20 mile tab makes possible. It isn't just a question of the number of seats either. Storage space on AFVs is very tight and unless even moderately heavy equipment is restrained you are asking for someone to get brained. Often the restraints and seating are needed for extra bits of kit and there is a huge difference between the kit needed for a quick jolly and a deployment where you are effectively living out of the vehicle. Rifle racks and the suchlike are not just to keep things tidy.

You could probably make a case for almost any modern MBT carrying a couple of dudes, possibly not even at the expense of some ammo. If you were going to model it however you'd probably have to think about them being unconscious or having broken limbs if the vehicle went above 30 mph for any period of time.

Re: Merkava.
 

Lol

Reminds me years back on a practice exercise a mate of mine managed to organise a sneak in & disableing a load of their transport. They were not happy about it gave him a good beating after but serious respect for pulling it off.