Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

"Like." An analogy, obviously.

"You're wrong because I said so. Prove you're right."
My evidence is in the letter of international copyright law, which you claim I've misused out of hand, most likely without reading yourself.

Public Domain is literally and shortly defined as: "That which is not covered by Intellectual Property rights."
For the United States: http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-definitions.html

You can argue anything, the law may state differently.
"For copyright protection to attach to a later, allegedly derivative work, it must display some originality of its own. It cannot be a rote, uncreative variation on the earlier, underlying work."

If you genuinely care, you can start with L. Batlin & Son, Inc. v. Snyder.

The data on the fantasy nation is copyrighted as original work.
The mod itself is not. The mod is public domain, and may be freely distributed.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Yeah, and the faq doesn't really answer the question what is covered by intellectual property rights. It does nicely show when something is in the public domain.

" “public domain” if it is no longer under copyright protection or if it failed to meet the requirements for copyright protection. "

But it fails to list these requirements.

Actually the mod is programming code. So in that way all the normal rules for software code apply. And software can be copyrighted. Sure it isn't software in the strictest sense. But I think you could argue that it is a form of computer code. And in this sense the creation of these mods is a creative act.

Sure if Sombre had used sprites released in a games workshop game for his mods, and perhaps edited them a little bit it would not have been creative. But in this case I think it is.

Sprites are also an important part of the mods. Are they not original work? The statistics abilities and the description of the different units are also data. And thus original work. And while rules of games cannot be copyrighted, the specific expressions of these can. Which I think would also consider the different statistics and abilities given to the different mods.

Ps: did you just really call mod creators uncreative? So the creation of the different Warhammer mods by Sombre is a "uncreative variation on the earlier, underlying work." And not a creative reinterpretation of earlier work in a new environment?

And sure L. Batlin & Son, Inc. v. Snyder show that a copy that clearly looks a lot alike doesn't fall under copyright. But that doesn't apply in this case. Lets take the example of the Sombre warhammer mods again. The creation of these sprites is a variation of the physical models and drawings that Games Workshop has made. But not an uncreative one. As Sombre has used a new medium, sprites. Instead of the traditional ways games workshop shows their different fantasy models (pewter, and normal drawings). So I don't even think that in the case of the creations by Sombre it constitutes as uncreative.

See Alfred Bell & Co. v. Catalda Fine Arts, Inc. for example.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

The warhammer mods certainly could be argued to be derivative works, of both dominions and Warhammer. That doesn't make them public domain. If anything, it makes them copyright infringement. (Assuming them to be done without the permission of whoever owns Warhammers copyright. They can be assumed to have at least implicit permission from Illwinter.)
That still doesn't put them in the public domain. If they're infringing works, they can't be in the public domain, or the holder of the copyright being infringed couldn't do anything to stop distribution.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

You've stated in an earlier post: "Sure the creators of the mod do not gain the copyright for the mod."

Therefore, by your own admission, I've used the term 'Public Domain' correctly.

Humorously, the rest of your post argues that Sombre should be sued for creating a Derivative Work without permission of the original copyright holder.
That is a danger of taking an uninformed stance for pointlessly erudite banter.

It is a Fair Use work in the public domain.
Claiming anything else serves as a detriment to a potential author's creativity, since it will call forth the threat of infringement contentions.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

I smelled the coming flame war when i first saw this tread.

But not this kind :D

Very amusing ;)

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

I have since realized that my statement is incorrect. They do gain copyright regarding certain parts of these mods. Sprites, content that was invented to create the stats and abilities. Stories written, and not copied verbatim from other sources.

"Could" is not the same as "should". You are putting words in my 'mouth'.

And yes he could be sued. But I think trademarks are more a problem here. In the case of a lawsuit he would probably be asked to stop. Not that there where any damages done. But it wouldn't be a move GW has not performed before.

And now you are trying to make me change my point just to defend Sombre. Which I won't sure, the works are Derivative Works without permission of the original copyright holder. But that still doesn't change my original point. No Public Domain.

Classy.

What? So to prevent mod creators from potential lawsuits we should ignore the law and create our own reasoning to protect something that you probably cannot protect in court?

And it will not call forth the threat. Because it is already there. (Not that this will cause big problems, as there is no potential lost revenue in this case of derivative work).

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

One cannot be granted Derivative Work copyright protection without the permission of the original copyright holder.
You cannot gain personally from a crime.

Honestly, just read the definition of 'Fair Use.'

The only parts of a mod granted protection under the Berne Convention are those that pass the originality test, or Derivatives with explicit permission of the original owner.

The rest is a Fair Use work incorporating multiple copyrights for the betterment of the public.

I'm not suggesting 'we' change the law to this, I'm suggesting the law is already as above to encourage creativity.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Copyright infringement is only a crime when it is done on a commercial scale. If it isn't it can be brought to the courts as civil suit.

Large scale copyright infringement is covered by a the Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights. TRIPS. Which was signed by most of the WTO countries. This agreement forces countries to make large scape copyright infringement criminal.

In this case it is neither large scale, nor commercial.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Oh, alright. You do not like that word?

Will that help to reduce the deliberate obfuscation?

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Related to the thread, but not the current conversation:

http://z7.invisionfree.com/Dom3mods/...0&#entry141893

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

It does.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Exactly! I completely agree!!

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Passive aggressive dickery is not nearly as clever as this poster thinks.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Gents,

The question was "Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted," not "Must" or "Legally" or "Under threat of prosecution" etc, etc.

It's an ethical question.

I'm merely wondering if a company can ethically profit (forums are a sales tool, remember?) from the contributions made from those they've forbidden from participating.

Apologies for the flavor text around the poll options - perhaps they're a bit, er, dickery (sp?) - but I'm still curious to know the community's opinion, my own interpretation aside.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

But even thats asked abit lopsided.
The answer would tend toward NO. That is IF the forbidding was purely the act of those who run the forum. How much of the forbidding can be chalked up to the actions of the people who got banned would tend to affect that.

Also... are you asking if the forum admins should themselves automatically delete the posts and products of everyone they ban? Wouldnt wiping out someone from the existence and history of the forum be even more heavy handed?

Or are you saying that the people who are banned should automatically demand that their posts and products be removed? That they should take such a banishment so heavily as to do that to their former peers? And I guess to avoid the profiting thing that they should abandon the game completely, not create anything else for it, and not recommend it.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Not sure what's so unclear about this question. I'll try again, in a different format:

If you were banned from this forum, would your like to have your copyrighted material removed from this forum?

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Now that's *completely* different question from the original one, and here I have an actual answer - no (if we omit the "copyrighted" part, that will again lead to definitions of copyright etc). I don't want the content created by me to be deleted in case of my permaban if it happen. I made it mostly for myself and for other people that are as obsessed with this game as me, in my free time; it had nothing to do with profiting me or the company. I want people to have access to my work if they need it and in no way I'm going to restrict them from it, company has nothing to do with it at all. Since these boards are their territory they have the right to delete it themselves of course, which will make me sad.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

That also creates an answer for me.
NO
At least I never have in the past. And Im fairly sure I wouldnt here. In fact, I find a subtle satisfaction in my posts and offers still creating thankyou's and comments on boards I can no longer answer on. Just create a webpage or a blog (or forum) saying you were booted from that forum and make all your comments there. Someone on the old forum will point there every time the question comes up. Much more satisfying than pissing off all your old peers by deleting the stuff.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Were I to create something, I would say no. On other forums for other games, largely tabletop, where I have actually created content I would want the community to have it even if I got banned. However, the questions are completely different, the category of things I want to happen contains only a tiny fraction of what is found in the category of things that should be allowed to happen.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

That is not what you asked. Your "yes", "no" and "abstain" all have strings attached. You know why it is unclear because you made the thread just to troll.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

So you've been banned from several forums?

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Of course! As often as its been called for here, you find that surprising? Ive been spanked and demoted on this forum more than anyone I know. Ive also been on Internet since its birth. I was bound to end up on forums whose policies tended more to match those who felt I should be banned from here. There are forums for everyone (and consequently, NOT for everyone). There are also forums, chats, newsgroups where I get to do the banning.

There is also the fact that the more forums someone is on that requires them to be a certain way (forums where you are moderator, or run by friends, or very useful but managed quite strictly, or like Shrapnel all of the above) the more need there is to be on forums where you do NOT feel like you have to be that way all the time. If you only have one forum, you tend to try and force it to be everything.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

I don't find it surprising, I just wondered if that was what you meant.

On most forums where bans, warnings, censoring and the like are common practice I usually consider it a sh*tload of hypocrisy, this one being one of the weirdest. You can spread disinformation and be an arrogant slob with impunity, but not say f*ck or touch a touchy subject in a straightforward way. Makes me feel like I'm visiting my grandma or something.

I'm active on quite many forums, never been banned so far though. (that I do find a little surprising) FYI I don't think you should be banned, I've yet to see anyone here commit what would be a banning offense in my eyes. It's just that you manage to piss me the f*ck off all the time, and I'm not the kind of girl who keeps her mouth shut.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Nahh thats about right for a corporate owned forum. I wouldnt have worded it that way but the sentiment is correct.

And you would probably have to be on the other side of the fence to have a feel for this, but most bans are considered to have volunteered for it. At least in the eyes of those who do the banning. Very few people ban from forums, or kick from chats, or nuke from worlds suddenly or on a whim. It usually involves a conversation where the bannee pulls the trigger themselves. Kindof like someone standing in front of a person that has a gun and saying "sure go ahead and shoot me". Of course, the bannee never sees things as having happened that way and you will never convince them of it. Thats just a common viewpoint of those who feel they were forced to ban someone. :)

Remember there are three sides to every situation.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Yes that's a good comparison, as any policeman taking "go ahead and shoot me!" for a valid reason to shoot should be fired on the spot.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Regardless of the rest of the discussion, I just want to point out that this post removes any doubt that the banned user Sombre at least would like his material removed from this forum. I'm only saying this to counter those who say that no banned members have expressed a desire to have their work removed, since at least one of them certainly has...

There's the law, and there's the right thing to do. As we all know, the law barely applies on the internet, in practice, despite what many governments and corporations would like to claim. With the internet being a de facto lawless place, rules and regulations are much less important than not being a dick. If you ban a guy, but keep his work, you're being a dick.

Just my two cents, of course. I half suspect somebody will try to paint me as a sockpuppet of some banned veteran, which is laughable considering how bad at this game I am...

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Right, but it would be very easy for someone to post the mods here. If his whole point is that he cannot maintain the mods, than that can be easily fixed by someone who frequents both boards. Or someone could post a link to the new forums with the updated mods.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

well that's not exactly what I mean, Warhammer. All I'm saying is that it appears that sombre, for example, wants his mods removed from this forum, presumably to host them on his own forum, and it's a dick move to keep his work somewhere he doesn't want it. Of course, as you say, anybody could just download them from his forum and repost them here, but it would be common courtesy for the admins of this board to disallow such postings, perhaps maintain a "Do Not Post" list for removed files.

I don't think that his "whole point" is that he wants them removed because he can't maintain and update them here, I am under the impression that he doesn't want his mods here at all, updated or not. His reasons for wanting this are irrelevant I think.

sure, technically there's no rule that shrapnel has to do this, but it is simple common courtesy that his wishes should be respected in this matter.

As a side note, one reason I feel so strongly about this is that I have been involved in a somewhat similar situation in the past, on a much different forum (details are off topic and unnecessary, I think). I'm not a friend or minion of sombre's, although I do admire his work, and sympathize with his position.

I think what I'm suggesting is obviously the sensible and mature way to handle things, rather than focusing on spite and copyright and "rules lawyering". It doesn't matter which side is "right", just remove the guy's mods if that's what he wants...

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

emphasis mine:
with respect, I feel sort of compelled to quibble with you over semantics, Gandalf. It is literally quite impossible to "force" sombody to do something over the internet, there is always choice involved. Nobody has ever been forced to do anything online in the history of the internet, with the possible exception of botnets and the like (lol). I've been (and am) a moderator myself on various forums, and I can tell you I've never been "forced" to ban somebody, I make the choice to ban somebody who has broken my interpretation of the rules, or, more likely, just pissed me off (which is honestly what all mods and admins do, not just me).

I know it seems like I'm a nitpicking jerk, but I feel in these sorts of situations it's important to use words precisely. Uncorrected semantics become propaganda if not remedied.

sorry for the double post, i would have edited this into my last post if I was allowed to do so ;)

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

@Scarmiglione - it's funny you mention spite - that would be the only reason to pull your own work from the board entirely.

It's also far above and beyond common courtesy to expect board moderators to be IP police for the content of a banned user! That's simply absurd. The most that could be expected is what's extended to any person, i.e. deletion of posts that claim fraudulent authorship.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Deadlyshoe, as I said, sombre's reasons for wanting his work taken down are irrelevant. whether it's motivated by spite or not is unimportant. I'm not sugggesting the mods should IP police on behalf of any individual user, What i am really saying that there should be a simple list of files removed by request of their authors, that should not be posted again, not just for sombre, but anyone wanting to remove his work for whatever reason. that would not add any significant work for the moderators at all.

The spite I was referring to was the spite of the shrapnel mods for refusing to simply remove a banned user's material. It is entirely correct to hold the mods to a higher standard than the users they ban. Ostensibly, the mods should not be spiteful, even if they are dealing with a "spiteful" user. Especially in this case, where the mods are also paid(?) employees of the company. What's good for the goose is not good for the gander in this case.

Despite what you claim, nothing I've suggested is "above and beyond" common courtesy. What I've suggested is, in fact, the very essence of common courtesy. There's no reason that the admins can't remove a banned users work if that's what he wants, except for a level of spite and immaturity that is unacceptable for admins. it is unnaceptable for users to be spiteful and immature, too, but of course the users in question have already been banned.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Lest anyone really cares about this, I should perhaps mention that Sombre asked me some time ago to delete his mods from this forum and give links to the new forum, and as a moderator I can do that, but just haven't gotten around to it. His reasons as I understand them are simply that otherwise people will keep on downloading old versions of his mods and he won't be able to maintain them properly. With mods it's particularly important that everyone has the most up to date version, as confusing errors will arise otherwise (dominions won't tell you you've got the wrong mod version, but in a multiplayer game funny things will happen). It's not a practical solution to ask someone to keep on updating the copies of the mods on this forum. That is definitely too much faff and I wouldn't expect anyone to do it (I certainly won't do it).

Incidentally Sombre's and Burnsaber's mods are amazing, and I highly recommend everyone gets hold of some of them and has a go.

Also I have not read everything so don't know where this "spite" thing has come from, but spite definitely isn't something that Sombre or Burnsaber would bother with.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

That does sound reasonable. But your link didnt fully give that impression. I was first concerned with whether he only said it there or actually requested it. But it appears a request was made. He didnt say to who. But apprently it was to a moderator which would be proper.

Im not sure though it a list was provided such as specifically which posts he wanted fixed. Im not sure if deleting a thread is proper, but deleting the link definitely would be.

I do not think there are any paid moderators at this time. There has been a "head moderator" paid position but I think the co-owner fills that now.

Im not sure Id agree that there is no reason not to delete. In fact I would think there is more reasons not to delete than there is to delete (altho I do think there is good reason to make some deletions). But either way I definitely think the use of "common courtesy" is straining things. Courtesy yes, but common does not ring true at all. Such a request being done on forums would be quite uncommon to the extreme as far as I can tell.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

I should say that in this case there would be no downside to "deleting" the mods from this forum since I'd just replace them with up-to-date links to newer versions of the same mods. The functionality of this forum would be increased in fact.

Also someone pointed out to me that not having done the updating yet might make Shrapnel look bad (since as a moderator, I am somewhat associated with them). Well, that was not intentional - I saw the request from Sombre as a friend asking a favour, which I just haven't got around to yet.

I really think this is all a non-issue, since as far as I know all parties are happy.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

I hope you won't get around to it :) Or simply add a link to the posts there rather than delete the downloads.

I don't know how long Dom 3 will last as an actively played game and community. And when the community here, on Sombre's special place and elsewhere has drifted away many of these sites will go too. But not necessarily all. Some may survive and people - probably us finding our old Dom 3 disk in the future - may come looking for mods, maps and threads about this game. The more places they are the more chances we or others will find them.

I doubt I am the only forum member who occasionally digs out an old game to see if it still plays as I remember it. And then goes looking for information, hints, walkthroughs, mods or maps of the game. Google is a great friend here but many links are dead or the sites defunct. I already cannot find the maps to many of the maps I remember downloading for games like HOMM3. Even if some of the sites are still there many of the downloads have gone.

The more sites they are on - even if not in their final version - the more chance that they will be available in the future. And if anyone comes along while the community is still active and expresses any interest in Sombre's mods there are plenty here who will direct them to the latest versions.

Re: Should banned user mods/maps/etc be deleted from these boards?
 

Good point! I'll bear that in mind. Also I intend to keep my server (where the mods are now stored) up indefinitely, although I guess you never quite know what will happen.