Re: Question about EA Tir Na N'og
 

@Colonial

Not really trying for an economics debate, and not asking for someone to lay out a huge spreadsheet of the answers. Just want arguments that compare the relative impacts of a change rather than the absolute impacts on any one strategy. Festin just provided one good argument about relative changes. Thats all i'm really looking for.

Sometimes I just have a tendency to ramble about relative efficiency, constrained optimization, etc. If it happens again let me know.

But anyway, this thread kind of got away from its intended purpose and veared off into a discussion of hammers. Original question still stands, what do you do with Tir Na n'Og? Without hammers? Are they broken beyond repair?

Re: Question about EA Tir Na N'og
 

Remember also when comparing TNN and Fomoria without hammers that CBM also gave TNN some nice bonuses like lower encumbrance on all their Sidhe troops/commanders and Awe on the Ri, where Fomoria got higher base encumbrance on their Giants, as well as potent anti-SC measures such as Song of Power and battlefield enchantments that limit the usefulness of ranged weapons. I think there's no room to claim that Fomoria is categorically superior without actually testing out what TNN has these days.

Actually looking back you claim that CBM hasn't really boosted TNN in any appreciable way. You may wish to look again.

Re: Question about EA Tir Na N'og
 

Torgon, as Festin started to mention, the difference is huge. thugs and SCs just don't use the same mechanics to win, so comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges and asking whether it's still worth it to buy apples if oranges are 25% cheaper than they used to be.

now, seeing that you want more concrete examples than apples vs oranges than I'll give you some actual dominions reasoning. thugs are generally used as raiders, which means that they need to be able to defeat PD(and not even a lot of it), the key is maneuverability so they can be where you need them and than move out to other places. therefore thugs don't need a lot of equipment, a brand+shield is usually more than enough, however these 2 items are crucial in most scenarios. SCs on the other hand are not simply "teleporting raiders", that's what thugs are(in TNN's case, cloud trapezing). SCs are meant to take on large armies with some magic support as well. how you build SCs is very situation dependent, to what you have, what your opponent has, what counters he has available, what he is fielding, etc. so their cost varies greatly.

now, the other side of this equation is the numbers game. for a mass thug strategy to be effective(TNN, Eriu, Van if you take that road, etc) you need critical mass otherwise their impact will be minimal and your strategy will fail. what critical mass is depends on your opponent, a good rule of thumb is to be able to take out all of your opponent's undefended(as in PD only, a few stragglers are allowed, but nothing heavier) provinces while your main army(or armies) attack his defended areas and forts. thugs alone won't win you any wars, you still need your armies for heavy lifting.

SCs on the other hand can be used both as "raiders" though that's usually a waste unless you're swimming in SCs(late game tart whoring for example) as well as heavy lifters. SCs should be able to deal with the enemy's large armies and storm some of his forts(if not all of them, again depends on the circumstances). even a single SC can do wonders if equipped properly, though obviously the more the better(as it usually is).

so back to your TNN vs Fomoria example. your main missing component is critical mass. there are other factors too, some that I've mentioned(needing other components or can go solo) and others that I haven't. once you include those the scales almost immediately tip to Fomoria's favor. hence why thug nations have been hurt the most with the hammer nerf, and also why QM has worked hard on buffing them.

Re: Question about EA Tir Na N'og
 

Adding a bit to my previous comment, there is one other thing to be said in favour of using hammers: hammers are a safe investment, while thug gear isn't. So, it's not like "you have 3 thugs or you have a hammer and 2 thugs and that's it". In the first case, when thugs die, you lose expensive items, your entire investment. In the second case, you lose cheaper items, and your hammer is still safe in your capital, to be used for the rest of the game.

Re: Question about EA Tir Na N'og
 

I wonder how long it will be before there can be strategy discussions that don't turn into rants about omghammers...

Re: Question about EA Tir Na N'og
 

Maybe as soon as this needless change is reverted, either in the main mod or in a usable custom version.

Re: Question about EA Tir Na N'og
 

It's absurdly easy to do yourself. Just do it already and stop whining.

Find this:
And remove it.

And let people discuss the TNN strategy with all of its changes without the unending complaints.

Re: Question about EA Tir Na N'og
 

It is not easy, considering that a lot of other changes were already made to counterbalance the removal of hammers, so anyone who tries to make a custom version of CBM will have to decide which parts to remove and which to leave.

And I am sure that the discussion of strategy will proceed perfectly fine as soon as you stop derailing the thread with your meaningless and aggressive remarks. Thank you in advance.

Re: Question about EA Tir Na N'og
 

Thats a bit daft from the perspective of a bunch of MP players. Don't rightly care if I get hammers or not SP :(.


@ Torgon:

I reckon the fact that they pay clever people full time to modal one system would be evedance of how unrealistic it would be to accurately modal another system without in entire corporate R&D department or think tank at out disposal :P

I have a personal pet pieve with people imposing economic/statistical models where they don't fit. I studied history at univerisy and that discipline is full of instances of people trying to study an economic history without re-evaluating econ's basic assumptions. so they end up analysing renaissance trade, for example, while assuming shipping costs are zero (which works in a modern, oil-feuled, context). But of course in reality renaissance shipping costs were on the order of 350% :(.

Re: Question about EA Tir Na N'og
 

I was planning on making a "CBM 1.83: Hammer Edition" once CBM 1.83 comes out. It will just put the hammers back and undo a small number of the item cheapenings. That's not because I disagree with the hammer change (I like it), but because it seems to me like a lot of people want it. However anyone could do it and I'd strongly encourage someone else to do it if they fancy! It's only a few minutes' work.

Re: Question about EA Tir Na N'og
 

Haha... Totally agree. A huge number of economists are idiots. I guess I got way too mathy in trying to explain what I was asking for. What I really wanted was realtive comparisons rather than absolute comparisons. The last few posts have provided that. Now I'm happy. Didn't really want or need a mathematical disseration, just used a mathematical dissertation to try to explain why simply giving an absolute statement "thugs are worse off after hammers" doesn't really help. A relative statement "Thugs are much worse off than SCs, and here is why: thugs require a massing strategy and are thus more gem/forging intensive than SCs" is helpful.

Re: Question about EA Tir Na N'og
 

The simple truth is that we don't know yet, there hasn't been enough games after hammer removal to draw conclusions.

For the purpose of low PD clearing, Tir's thugs can be used naked and in pairs instead of kitted, and so can several other nations recruitable thugs. I suppose we'll see more of this, with players only kitting thugs chosen for special battles.

Add to that the removal/heavy nerf of several classic lategame options like Tartarians and gemgens(wish spam etc) which greatly increases the relative power of recruitable thugs and other midgame national strenghts.

Re: Question about EA Tir Na N'og
 

I have recently fallen in love with the LA Man summon Bean Sidhe (this is a MP game using CBM1.82). Despite she being called Bean Sidhe she is actually closer to the Baobhan Sidhe (both have Stealth +45, both are assassins, etc).

There are a couple very big differences though. While all Baobhan Sidhe have Air 2, only 25% of the Bean Sidhe summons have. Then again, the Bean Sidhe summon is (in addition to what the Baobhan Sidhe is) ethereal, cold immune, poison immune, causes fear but is undead. The Bean Sidhe has Wail of Doom (pretty much useless, or at least I've found no use for it) while Baobhan Sidhe has the somewhat useful Life Drain.

Just for the record, I've used in a current ongoing MP game the Bean Sidhe summons both as thugs (practically as semi-SC's to be honest) and as assassins. Gotta love those chicks. I use the A2 versions as thugs/semi-SC's with Fire brand, Shield of Valour, Dragon Helmet, Copper Plate, Flying Boots, lucky ring (I know, I know, retardedly expensive as thugs, but as SC's not that hard; just have to be careful *what* to attack); they are thus immune to everything (Fire, Frost, Poison, Shock). They can Cloud Trapeze anywhere, or fly hidden 3 provinces per turn. In combat script Cast Mistform, Attack one turn, ShockwaveX3, Attack Rear (and *always* make sure you have at least one (I prefer two) S1 magister sneaking in the target province; it sort of lessens the risk of Mind hunts on the girlie when the hidden magister fries the brains of the mindhunters; I've a couple times risked moving a girlie where there was no magister protecting her, counting on the opponent being paranoid enough not to attempt Mind Hunts as that just results in burned brains). As she is sneaky, resistant to everything *and* protected by hidden astral magisters it is practically impossible to catch her, in combat she is immune to 80% of all missiles and glamour + ethereal makes her hard to hit in melee, and then they will just hit the mistform.

Anyway, lets look at the Baobhan Sidhe. You can't make her immune to everything like a Bean Sidhe summon. You can't protect her with cheap sneaking astral mages. She doesn't have fear. She isn't ethereal. I think we can forget about using her as a thug against anything else but weak PD.

What about using her as a pro-assassin? The weaknes of the Bean Sidhe summon is that she is undead, so there are many ways she could be killed before cutting through the body guards. Dust to dust, Banishment, plus all the other usual anti-assassin tools. The Baobhan Sidhe doesn't suffer those (except the normal ones, obviously).

So, what gear to give a Baobhan Sidhe assassin (looking this from CBM 1.84 perspective, notice that I am theorising ie not been tried in action)? I wouldn't actually give much. Copper Plate would be cool (not only does it give SR100, but it also zaps the first one hitting the wearer, which is pretty cool for an assassin) and is easy and cheap for TNN to craft. A shield maybe, perhaps a shield of valor (again, easy for TNN to craft, but a bit expensive at 10 air gems) or perhaps something simple as a black steek tower shield (makes her practically immune to missiles). A weapon shouldn't be needed as she has Lifedrain anyway. Script Mistform, Flight, AttackX1, ShockwaveX2, Attack Rear.

One could send her to action via Cloud Trapeze (possibly hitting somewhere where other TNN thugs hit the same round too), and then sneak in to where ever she is going to assassinate enemies. Or directly cloud trapeze to an enemy fort, a couple Ri's and a Baobhan will be able to kill most PD protecting forts (all PD in the game is toast, unless they have patrolling mages boosting the PD), and after that the girlie (or girlies, why not send in more than one if you are going to assassinate commanders anyway?) could start harvesting enemy commanders inside the walls. With the Stealth +45 it is *very* hard to find the Baobhan, unless there are hundreds and hundreds of patrollers in the province (and then those patrollers aren't fighting at the front).