Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by geoschmo:
The AI uses their normal research scripts at the game start, but since they only queue a couple of projects they might lose a few points. Wouldn't be the end of the world though.

Geoschmo<hr></blockquote>

So all that needs to be done is to allow unused research points to carry from turn to turn and then you have a full starting techs solution. (maybe degrade carried points by a small percentage like 5%, or allow carry over during the first 10 turns only.)

Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

I haven't read the entire thread so please excuse me if this was addressed earlier...

In SEIII if you put more points than needed toward a research project, they would carry over to the next level. It was possible to put, say, 100,000 points, toward a 10,000 point tech area and keep getting the next level each turn, until the points ran out. That was done away with in SEIV.

Is that what you are talking about? Just curious.

Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

A neat quirk of SE4:
1) put 50,000 points into a project that costs more than that.
2) Steal/Analyse/Trade for the tech you're working on (from step 1)
3) Your 50,000 points will have carried over to the next level!

In this way, you could have two empires researching the same tech area, leapfrogging over each other, and getting the full value of their combined output!
Useful areas to try it on would be Stellar Manip, planet usage, ship con, propulsion, crystalline weapons.

Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Kimball:
I haven't read the entire thread so please excuse me if this was addressed earlier...

In SEIII if you put more points than needed toward a research project, they would carry over to the next level. It was possible to put, say, 100,000 points, toward a 10,000 point tech area and keep getting the next level each turn, until the points ran out. That was done away with in SEIV.

Is that what you are talking about? Just curious.<hr></blockquote>

Acutally no. Right now say you are playing a high initial resource game (100k) or that you have even editted the configuration file to make this number larger, say 500k. If you do this, you must put at least that many points of research projects in the queue on your first turn or the remainder is lost. If you only put propulsion I (20k, I think) and physics (50k) in the queue. You'd get those techs and lose 430k research points.

If those research points stayed with you as if you had a research storage facility with infinite capacity (I tried giving this to all research facilities, but the ability doesn't exist for this resource type). You could spend the extras on propulsion II and physics II next turn and so on.

With this implementation every empire could start with 9 or 10 drastically different techs early in the game. (As opposed to everyone having just onle level in the mostly the same techs for a high resource start).

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: Lastseer ]

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: Lastseer ]</p>

Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

Would be nice. There is currently no way to edit the resource start level. You only have the low (5000), medium (20K) and high (100K) options in the game setup screens. And no way to store research points, as you found. These would require hardcode changes. If we could get these, maybe we could just get the ability to have starting tech levels. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

If you read the whole thread we have talked about making a starting tech mod that uses racial points. It would require extensive changes to the data files though. SJ (I think it was SJ) offered to make a program to help with the modifications, but he must ahve got tied up on some other projects cause I haven't heard anything else from him. I guess I could do it by hand. If I start now I could probably have it ready by Christmas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

As an alternative, I suppose you could have a 10 planet start. This would give you a ton of research points. You could agree among you to only build anything on one planet and then after X number of turns abandon all the rest. This would simulate your idea without too much in the way of modifications. You would have to change the settings.txt file to allow you to abandon a fully populated planet, or build cargo bases in orbit and transfer/jettison the population. And you'd have to trust the other players to do likewise.

Geoschmo

Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

Ooo, I just thought of an easier way. You edit the facilities.txt file so that research facilities produce an obcene amount of research points at the start of the game. Then after X turns you swith back to normal data files. Start with one planet as normal. But those 5 research facilities on it could be pumpong out 20K or even more per turn each. Whatever you want.

Geoschmo

Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by geoschmo:
Ooo, I just thought of an easier way. You edit the facilities.txt file so that research facilities produce an obcene amount of research points at the start of the game. Then after X turns you swith back to normal data files. Start with one planet as normal. But those 5 research facilities on it could be pumpong out 20K or even more per turn each. Whatever you want.

Geoschmo<hr></blockquote>

I actually considered this and rejected it, because it gives more initial techs to those with advanced storage techniques (extra research facilities). Where as normally they'd only get a little extra in rate. [Actually I haven't verified this. Are the extra faicilites research or mineral? ]

However I have had no problem modifying the intial resource allocation in early verions of SEIV (haven't tried it in a while).

From what I understand the only code change required, would be to allow unused research points to accumulate. (Say for the first 5-10 turns, or with a 5% depreciation throughout the game). This should be a very minor code change and I've submitted it, but have not gotten a reply.

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: Lastseer ]

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: Lastseer ]</p>

Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by geoschmo:
Would be nice. There is currently no way to edit the resource start level. You only have the low (5000), medium (20K) and high (100K) options in the game setup screens. And no way to store research points, as you found. These would require hardcode changes. If we could get these, maybe we could just get the ability to have starting tech levels. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Geoschmo<hr></blockquote>
I agree that storage would require a code change. But this should be extremely minor (as other resources already work this way).
It would also be nice to have the starting resources be changeable the same way maximum units in space are configurable from the start screen. However this can be editted easily through a configuration file.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>geoschmo:
If you read the whole thread we have talked about making a starting tech mod that uses racial points. It would require extensive changes to the data files though. SJ (I think it was SJ) offered to make a program to help with the modifications, but he must ahve got tied up on some other projects cause I haven't heard anything else from him. I guess I could do it by hand. If I start now I could probably have it ready by Christmas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
<hr></blockquote>
I've been following this thread since it started. Without a code change, it becomes unduly complicated to work around the existing limitations.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>geoschmo:
As an alternative, I suppose you could have a 10 planet start. This would give you a ton of research points. You could agree among you to only build anything on one planet and then after X number of turns abandon all the rest. This would simulate your idea without too much in the way of modifications. You would have to change the settings.txt file to allow you to abandon a fully populated planet, or build cargo bases in orbit and transfer/jettison the population. And you'd have to trust the other players to do likewise.
<hr></blockquote>

I don't think you could get the AI to do that.

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: Lastseer ]</p>

Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lastseer:


I actually considered this and rejected it, because it gives more initial techs to those with advanced storage techniques (extra research facilities). Where as normally they'd only get a little extra in rate.
<hr></blockquote>Actually, I don't think this is the case. IIRC the extra homeworld facilities for the advanced storage guys would all be mineral miners. Although I suppose it would be fairly easy for them to simply scrap some mineral miners and build some research fac's You could make the research fac's VERY expensive though to eliminate this. Then when you go back to stock files all will be as it should be. The only problem is that you wouldn't be building research fac's on your new colonies until the accelerated period is over. Dont' know if that's a huge deal for you or not. Guess it would depend on how long you want the fast period to Last.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>However I have had no problem modifying the intial resource allocation in early verions of SEIV (haven't tried it in a while).
<hr></blockquote>Huh?
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>From what I understand the only code change required, would be to allow unused research points to accumulate. (Say for the first 5-10 turns, or with a 5% depreciation throughout the game). This should be a very minor code change and I've submitted it, but have not gotten a reply.

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: Lastseer ]<hr></blockquote>
Good luck with that. I have no idea how easy or hard a change like that would be. I am always trying to find ways to do things without asking for hard code changes. Just a quirk of mine I guess. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

For that matter it may not even be an issue of difficulty. He may just not want to do that. Research and intel points are more intangible assets. He may not agree that you should be able to store them up.

But it can't hurt to ask I suppose.

Geo

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: geoschmo ]</p>

Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by geoschmo:
Ooo, I just thought of an easier way. You edit the facilities.txt file so that research facilities produce an obcene amount of research points at the start of the game. Then after X turns you swith back to normal data files. Start with one planet as normal. But those 5 research facilities on it could be pumpong out 20K or even more per turn each. Whatever you want.

Geoschmo<hr></blockquote>

Isn't there some sort of "anti-cheat" that would prevent this. I would think that if you could edit the facilities.txt (or components.txt file for that matter) cheating during multiplayer games would be VERY easy.

I could allow my seeking parasites to do 1000 points of damage at a distance of 20 during my turn when I attack, while yours would only do 100 at 16 during your turn when you attack. Does that make sense?

Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

" I would think that if you could edit the facilities.txt (or components.txt file for that matter) cheating during multiplayer games would be VERY easy."

Not exactly. See, you have to be the HOST for this to work- the host processes the turns. And if it appies to one, it applies to everyone.

There is, still, an "anit-cheat" code in, but again assuming you're the host, it can be bypassed.

Phoenix-D

Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
" I would think that if you could edit the facilities.txt (or components.txt file for that matter) cheating during multiplayer games would be VERY easy."

Not exactly. See, you have to be the HOST for this to work- the host processes the turns. And if it appies to one, it applies to everyone.

There is, still, an "anit-cheat" code in, but again assuming you're the host, it can be bypassed.

Phoenix-D<hr></blockquote>

That makes sense, but what if you are playing turn based (different machines) instead of simltaneous? Different machines, different data files, dishonest person getting his butt kicked...

Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

I suppose you are right Kimball. I am pretty sure just about everyone playing PBEM with SEIV is playing simultaneous turns. It can be played turn based, the same as SEIII, but I don't think too many do it that way.

But if they were that would definetly be an option for a dishonest person.

Geoschmo

Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

Never done a MP seqential game, so I couldn't tell you.

Phoenix-D

Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

Ok, here's my revised plan for a simulated starting tech level PBW/PBEM game.

The game owner creates the first turn using stock SEIV files. For best results use the 100K start, although this is not totally neccesary.

The players play the first turn using stock files. (They will have to as the cheat protection will not allow them to do otherwise.) Once all the .plr files are in, the game owner processes the first turn offline, using modified data files. The facilities.txt file will be changed so that the research facility does nothing, and the Space Yard facility produces research points (100K per turn? Any number you want I suppose) and cannot construct anything. And change the settigns.txt file to reduce the base empire usage rates to zero. The effect of these changes is that as long as the modified data files are being used, empires cannot build anything, only research at a highly accelerated rate. These files will have to be distributed to the players so they can play there turns during the accelerated phase.

After a suitable period (1 year?) the turn will be processed using stock files and the players can begin constructing again.

AI can be used with this, although as stated before they may not be terribly efficent in the early turns and may lose some points because they only stack a couple projects at a time.

This has advatages over my previous ides, because each race will have only one research producing facility (modified space yard) regardless of whethere they are advanced storage or not. When I tested the other idea they were getting an extra research facility, which is a 20% bonus over the other races. With this plan the only difference in research production will be because of cultural or physical characteristics. If you still think that is unfair, you could mod the culture file to remove that one. Nothing you can do about the characteristics, except ban players from having improved intelligence. I don't see it as a big problem though.

One possible problem I can see would be is your homeworld population became unhappy because no ships are beign built. I don't think this would happen unless an enemy was in the same system, and that shouldn't happen if the enemies can't build ships either. If it does we can modify the happiness text file too.

Comments? If there is interest in this I can set up a game with this.

Geoschmo

Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

Geoschmo your idea might work, but isn't it a real shame that you must perform such a complicated procedure to achieve something that was so easy to do in SE III?? Wouldn't it be possible to persuade MM to implement this in a future patch (if it is too late now for SE IV Gold)?

Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

I don't know Q. I have no more influence over Malfador than anyone else. I am pretty sure it's been requested. Maybe if more people request it it will be done.

As far as my idea being complicated though, it's not really. Once the data files are set up, it's just a matter of using the mod selector to chose the proper files. No trouble at all really.

Geoschmo

Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

I something weird happened to what I tried to post. Anyway, wouldn't it just be easier to make the initial tech points adjustable. I'm referring to the 20k at the beginning of a low tech game. In effect, the tech just arrives a round later.

This has the advantage of using an existing mechanism.

If the AI uses its usual way of choosing tech projects, this won't cause to much grief for Aaron. If it uses a different method, this may not be feasible.

Thu

Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

The key thing you've missed, Thubar, is that you need to be able to research deeper than one level in a tech.

Given the research system in SE4, you cannot have excess research spill over into the next tech level.

IE: in SE3, you could dump 100,000 research points into propulsion on turn 1, then add nothing more. On turn 2, you would get tech level two, and your progress bar would be full. On turn 3, you'd get level 3, and your bar would still be full.

In SE4, any excess points are lost, so players would all get tech level 1 or 2 in everything, and there'd be no variety.

Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

Personally I was not all that great a fan of the starting tech levels system in SEIII anyway. You could get another level of propulsion for the same cost as a level of steallar manipulation. That didn't make much sense. There needed to be some way to factor in the variable cost in research for different techs.

Although I am sure it helped to speed up those Multiplayer games some. With simultaneous turns in SEIV that really isn't as much of a critical determining factor anymore.

If you don't want to research every tech every game, do a medium tech start. If that is too low, tweak the "raise levels" in the text file. If you don't want everybody to have the same tech start, you can try my idea. Or we can get back to work on the racial tech/start tech mod. The point is you have options. You don't have to wait for a code change that might not happen, and that not everyone would agree is a good idea.

Geoschmo

Re: SE IV Gold: Starting tech levels? Yes or No?
 

That's true, I did miss the aspect of going deeper than one tech level. Thanks for the correction.

Thubar