Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Not so. The game world will also have similarities, and to people like me, that's the most important part!

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Like I said, most of what Im seeing so far are imports of units and some nations. But most of the game play so far is more like CoE2 than Dom3. Maybe when we try some network play we will see more Dom3isms

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

The cosmology may be similar, but the game mechanics and gameplay are obviously much closer to CoE2.

It can safely be said that Dominions had a lot of CoE2 imports and CoE3 has a lot of Dominions imports, but Gandalf is correct about the way one should go about the comparisons.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Thanks Edi for the hints on what to expect.
Map zooming or minimap would help because in CoE2, when you have sent most of your troops to take out that last enemy, you may very well not see that one of his scouts is taking out all of your villages way back because you'd have to move with the arrow keys for a long time every turn, just to see if something isn't happening in your backyard. A minimap/zoom would avoid that problem, which is why I think it would be important. It would also help navigation a lot.
Also, commander move and selection use the same button. So, if you left click on the commander you want to move and the currently selected commander is just next to him, you move that guy instead. This really sucks. It would be much better to left-click for select, right-click for move, for instance.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

I would really love to see a demo before I buy if that is an option. Dominions 3 is one of the best games ever made and CoE2 is a lot of fun too, but if the game is going to retail for $50 or $60 then I'm going to want to try it first. That's just the way mama raised her boy. ;)

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

LDiCesare:

Map zooming exists in the game. It works by the mouse scroll wheel and the Page Up (in) and Page Down (out) keys. On an enormous map (biggest in the game), maximally zoomed out view covers one quarter of the map.

One key difference between CoE3 and Dominions is that units do not cost upkeep (that I have seen anyway), so building garrisons is actually a viable option. It is even necessary and unavoidable to an extent, since roaming independent monsters (and in the instance of certain events, hordes of special monsters too) will make mincemeat of your economy if your back country is unguarded.

As far as commander selection is concerned, CoE3 uses more of a Dom3 convention. Commanders and squares are selected by right-clicking on them and movement is by left-click.

The entire interface is going to be very familiar to anyone who has played Dominions and will not take a long time to learn. Especially once the manual is done.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

An addition to above: Once a square with commanders has been selected, left-clicking a different commander will make that commander active, but as long as GUI opacity is at maximum, it should not cause movement problems. Especially if you have centered the view on the square, because the commander box is off to the side.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Thanks for your answers Edi. That's all good to know.
It's nice to see Illwinter's new project advancing and that they learnt from their previous games to make this one better.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

I couldn't find the download for CoE2 at the website. Maybe they have removed it?

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Its on Shrapnels front page. :)

But here is a link to a page with all of their free games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/Our_Games/Free_Games.html

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Thanks Gandalf.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Have you guys thought about releasing your games on Steam? If so why haven't you? I'm sure your games would reach a whole new audience that doesn't know they exist... no offense to the marketing guys ;)

I don't remember how I found out about Dom3 but I feel lucky that I did.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Steam has been discussed often. Both here, and in staff forum.
It has its pros and cons but IIRC it does not meet the criteria for Indie support that Shrapnel seeks.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Yes it was pure luck that I found Dom 3, I'm positive there's a large population of folks out there who would love it but simple have not heard of it.

Though I'm sure there's some serious Cons with Steam.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

I think Steam would be fantastic for Shrapnel Games in general, though I seem to recall someone from Shrapnel Games posting an essay about pricing of digital purchases and how it was bad or something.
Thing is, releasing Dom III on Steam would bring in an enormous influx of players, and probably also money.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Oh gee, why wasnt that considered? Sorry. Im not usually sarcastic.

But Steam has been discussed for as long as Steam has existed. So has Stardock, Tor, Torrent, and the MS distribution systems. Keep in mind that most of the systems are not just "add on". To make them work for the companies involved, they tend to have to go all one way or the other. Either DD or hard copy. Either mass produce, or on demand. Either marketing or publicity.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Where did I imply that my thoughts were new or original? Someone mentioned Steam, and I said it would be a good idea. No need to be snippy.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

True. Sorry about that.
Maybe it should be in the FAQ file.

Im sure Steam will again be considered for the new game. But I wouldnt hold my breath for it

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

I am sure a lot of effort went into the price, marketing and distribution of Dominions, but the business guy in me thinks the price was too high, the marketing not enough (not in money spent, but avenue), and the distribution dated.

I think it could have made more money on Steam/Impulse/GOG by cutting out Shrapnel, charging $19.99 and including the owner's manual in PDF. As far as marketing goes, the game is niche and most of the sites have built in marketing via "search for games like this one" or being able to list by genre. Once game started getting 5 stars or the equivalent, it could have been a huge indy money maker.

P.S. I know they have said in the past that they did the numbers and they felt it would have been less profitable; I still disagree.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

+1

I have looked for turn based strategy games since the glory days of MOO & MOM. I haven't played them all, but I generally find the good ones (HOMM up to 3, Disciples up to 2, GalCiv, Alpha Centauri & the Civs, a few others), and the bad (all too many). I found this game because an old genesis game that I loved, Master of Monsters (my other MOM), had been through a truly epic fail of a sequel, and every now and then I look for news about that game to see if a decent remake will ever be made. In all of my gaming experience, that was the only place I had ever seen the word "Firbolg". I always assumed it was a misspelling of some obscure legend (there were plenty in that game), so about two years ago I googled firbolg and found the celtic mythologies connected to the word. And something curious. A turn based strategy game with firbolgs! I lurked, dl'd the demo, and am now an upstanding member of the community. :p

What I'm saying is, I have no idea how I would have found this game otherwise.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

There is no marketing. Marketing involves money laid out ahead of the game. That has to be paid back before the devs see any profit. Same with shelfware, or other distribs. That is not the Shrapnel way (started by a dev for devs). There is no major contract, development pay, marketing, shelfware to have to pay back. Here its publicity and distro, not the marketing and shelfware model.

The publicity does pretty good. There isnt a game site that doesnt list Dom3 and the press releases show up instantly on the net. Pretty good for free. And people do hear about it that way. Standard marketing would be laughed at unless (like is forced in other game companies) it went 3D and major sound bytes. Sure more money could be made if the big-buis game was played but no one is interested in it

And the download is regretted enough without going steam too. Too expensive to maintain

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

A Steam sale can do wonders for a game's popularity.

People think "Why not? Sounds somewhat interesting, and it's very affordable. Why miss the opportunity?"
That's certainly influenced some of my purchases, the only such one I regret being Settlers 7.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Yes it could.
But its too much overhead to maintain steam. Its almost too much overhead to maintain direct download. Thats why most places only choose one form or another

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Well what are all those "I want my Dominions 3" ads, then?

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Customer testimonies.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

You will see those in other places also. (anywhere that they are free)

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

I've always assume that low game exposure is intentional, maybe in the vein of staying off the beaten path and the like. The game really is HARD to find out about, I can guarantee that the exposure of dom 3 to it's potential customer base is very low.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Bear in mind the age of Dominions 3. The vast majority of games are discovered during their initial release period, when the reviews are out and folks are talking about the game on blogs, et cetera. In this regard Dominions 3 was no different. It's much quieter now because it's been what, six years since release? And actually when you consider you can find multiplayer games going on today on a majority of major gaming forums there is still exposure on a daily basis in some spots. How many other games from 2005 can say that?

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

I do like that aspect of it. The many other forums have picked up where this one has dropped out.

I also love that if you google it, you are hard pressed to find any posts against it. Another of "how many games can you say that about"

Something else to consider, just as players.....
advertising might bring in more players but would you really want that? Now the players find out about it from serious gaming newsgroups and gaming sites.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

I prefer the Shrapnel or GOG model to Steam. No, I don't pirate software, I just don't like the idea of having to install third party software in order to activate/run a game. I wouldn't care if it were also offered on Steam, Impulse, etc, but would prefer that to not be the only option.

You can argue back and forth as to whether this would result in greater sales/profit and I don't know what the result would be. But even if the result were greater sales I'm not sure why that would matter to me as a player. Sure, if I like IW games (and right now I'm not sure if I like their games or like Dominions - COE3 will help answer that for me) then it's in my interest that the game sells well enough to encourage future development. But they seem content enough with the sales of D3 that they are working on another game, so that doesn't seem to be an issue (and I've always liked the fact that attempting to bludgeon them with "if you want to make more money you'll do so and so" doesn't get far). As has been mentioned, there's still plenty of MP games going on six years after release so I don't see a problem there either. The only other advantage of having more players that I can think of is you might have more mod content. That's not a big deal for me either but for some people that would be a benefit and is really the main advantage I can think of from a player's perspective.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

More mods? :)
Im having trouble trying them all now and keeping track of which ones I like.

More maps maybe. I think we could use more maps. But there is YAMG (yet another MapGen) in the works which might help

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

One of the Outcasts wanted me to mention that Kohan is available on steam now.

Personally I don't care at all for this argument though and I'm not sure why we're going on about steam/digital download/marketing in this thread :(

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

I much prefer the indie model. I'm in the amusingly-named "Closed Public Beta" for Heroes VI, and I'm afraid they're going to push the game out before it's ready, which is a shame because I've been a fan of the series since Kings Bounty back in the day, and the fundamentals for Heroes VI are actually quite solid.

Speaking of which... there will be a Beta for CoE3, no?

Mods would be fantastic, especially as it appears (just by glancing at the screenshots) the art can be recycled from Dom3 mods? Amos generated enough zany skull monsters and cultists to add a dozen more nations.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Beta is in progress now.
But it might depend on your definition. It's playable but doesnt have some parts incorporated fully yet

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

I only found out about Dom3 last year. But - at least in my case - availability on steam would'nt have changed that.
So if I am able to download it, its good enough for me (or if I'm able to Transfer the Game - like Dom3 - with an stick. Kapput DVD drive...).

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Where's the one gone with the babe? Was she a genuine potential purchaser? Trade Descriptions Act, you know...

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

I'm really thrilled to hear about this. I've been playing a lot of Dom3 until about a year ago. Best game I ever layed my hands on. Now I just dropped by to check if anything new and exiting was coming up from the IW team. And behold... CoE III!

I'd love to pre-order, pre-purchase, download a beta version or whatever - anything really. So - when can we pursuade you guys to accept our money? :)

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Glad to see you're enthusiastic about it. :)

The game is still in beta and under development, with lots of things on the TODO list, but I'm sure Johan and Kristoffer will make some sort of statement on that particular issue when it's more complete.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

I'm on board for pre-order.

If it happens.

I'll write a haiku about my feelings:

Love Dominions 3
Really Love Dominions 3
Can't Wait, Head Explode

Thats a crap haiku
I wait without explosion
Still, daily I look

:)

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Well, you can view the progress page here:
http://jaffa.illwinter.com/coe3/coe3progress.html

That should give you an idea. Currently the game is playable, but incomplete and a lot of content is still missing. A portion of graphics needs an upgrade from the CoE2 era graphics. But on the whole things are progressing well.

:)

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Wheeeee! Excellent. :)

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

I've got the progress page set to auto refresh. The game is looking fantastic. My most anticipated game of this year. I've never been much of a MP gamer and I hope it provides a single player experience that I didn't get with Dom3.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Looking forward to COE 3 getting its own sub-forum, thats when I know it will be close to release.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

CoE3 does lend itself better to SP gaming than Dominions in a number of respects.

The variation is quite amazing so far and set to get better. The AI does have its limitations, but if you crank the difficulty up a few levels, you'll be in for a challenge.

The ten different AI difficulty levels offer quite a lot in terms of choice and the strategies usable in the game are less complex than in Dominions, meaning that the AI is not as hampered against a human. It does still have a handicap in terms of decision making, but the human choices are more limited than in Dominions and much more subject to random luck (starting spells, starting position, starting independent garrisons on important resources etc.)

If you crank the difficulty up to maximum, the most likely outcome is that the AI will simply roll over you even if you use every advantage you can wring out of the options you have and if you have a good start, that may be enough. Just. At least the ten levels offer much more granularity of choices than the five levels in Dom3.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

10 AI levels, wow, I can't think of another computer game with 10 AI levels. I'd like to know how the different levels differ in terms of bonuses the AI receives, does it "think" better, etc. I always like to play at the highest level the AI gets no advantages over me. If I'm challenged by that I will be very happy.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

As far as I know, the AI decision making is the same regardless of level, but the amount of bonus or handicap varies. The lowest level of AI gets a -25% handicap on gold, iron and special resources and is named Piss Boy. The highest level of AI gets a 500% bonus and is ranked Emperor.

Scarcity or abundance of resources is the main determining factor in CoE3 on whether you will prosper or not. Start locations are random and you can get really lucky or unlucky with them, so playing against AI that gets some bonuses is advisable. The default AI gets a 25% bonus, but I make a point of playing against AIs that get 50% or more bonuses.

The reason being that the AI can't always factor in everything when picking its fights, which can lead to really lopsided results sometimes. Also, more resources allows the AI to garrison its citadels. IF you lose all citadels, you're eliminated, so that's kind of important.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Wow, I've been away from here for far too long as life has been pretty rough, but imagine my surprise to see CoE III well in the works! Talk about a cheerful spot in the day...

Definitely added to my ever-growing to-buy list, as I pretty well trust Illwinter to deliver in spades not unlike DoM III.

On the digital distro front, meh---go for the "simple" ones first like GoG, Gamersgate(HUGE in Europe), Desura, maybe Indievania---THEN see about the more complicated ones like Steam and to a lesser extent Impulse. Though I don't really know about Impulse anymore post-Gamestop buyout from Stardock.

Pretty sure everything will work out though.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

I second using GoG for digital distribution :).

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

Use Steam. Get some real exposure.

Re: Illwinter's next project
 

I third GoG.