Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

Thanks for the info Rollo. Kept looking for a button, and forgot about the shortcuts.

Desert Rat

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

The "drones will automatically select a target when their target is destroyed" applies to tactical combat, but not at the system level.

PvK

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

Is the code fix to allow drones to warp or "move to" in work? Will this bug be fixed for the Gold release in Feb?

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jourin:
Is the code fix to allow drones to warp or "move to" in work? Will this bug be fixed for the Gold release in Feb?<hr></blockquote>

It is no bug but a design decision. It might get altered but don't count on.

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

It may be not a bug but it is a mistake IMHO that the drones can't be used for reconnaissance due to the lack of the "warp" / "move to" command.
The way it is now drones are actually just large long range missiles.

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Q:
It may be not a bug but it is a mistake IMHO that the drones can't be used for reconnaissance due to the lack of the "warp" / "move to" command.
The way it is now drones are actually just large long range missiles.<hr></blockquote>

Of course this is open to discussion. I just wanted to point out that the were deliberately designed to be cruise missiles and nothing else. If this is good or bad, what the fans want or don’t want, is an entirely different matter. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Personally I think it is a wise decision. If they can move around and warp they are nothing less then small ships without maintenance that can be build without a spaceyard and are very fast. Why should anyone build small ships instead?

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

The purpose of drones is to do missions you would not assign to manned ships.

High risk recon like a warp point in a contested sector.
Mine clearing when the chance of a mine sweeper being destroyed.
Raming or the cruise missile attack.

I have waited for drones primarily for the first two abilities and I still won't have them. Currently drones are only working 1/3 of the time. Of course it is a bug. To say it is a feature is like comparing MM to Microsoft who routinely classifies all their bugs as features. I am very disappointed that MM is releasing the Gold Version with such a major bug! What happened to MM's vaunted "won't release with a know bug policy"!

Again I am very disappointed!

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jourin:
The purpose of drones is to do missions you would not assign to manned ships.
<hr></blockquote>
My evil emperor uses products of conception (POCs) for that role. Gestating females who exercise their right to choose can get the POC removed at a gov't clinic free of charge. It then goes into an artificial gestation chamber for maturation. It is then raised by other POCs until the state decides what to do with it. There is no moral problem with assigning POCs to dangerous space missions, since they are not people.

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by [K126]Mephisto:


Of course this is open to discussion. I just wanted to point out that the were deliberately designed to be cruise missiles and nothing else. If this is good or bad, what the fans want or don’t want, is an entirely different matter. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Personally I think it is a wise decision. If they can move around and warp they are nothing less then small ships without maintenance that can be build without a spaceyard and are very fast. Why should anyone build small ships instead?<hr></blockquote>

I respectfully disagree.
The main disadvantage of drones compared to ships is their limited life span. So drones will not replace small ships.
In my very humble opinion MM made the same mistake as with the fighters in the very early SE IV release: The small fighters with only 10kT were just not useful. It is a pity to introduce features that will not be used. May be MM was afraid that drones would get too powerful, but now I believe we are on the opposite:
After what I have seen with the demo I probably will use still much more fighters than drones. And for the AI using drones I better say nothing.

However I am absolutely convinced that drones can be a great addition to the game, if some changes are made.

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

Since drones use ship engines in the default config they are very, very expensive for expendable units. You will pay about 1/2 the cost of a fully equipped cruiser and yet have to throw it away when the drone is launched. Either drones should use fighter engines (in which case they must be moved out of fighter tech levels to some 'smaller components' field) or there needs to be a special set of drone engines that are less expensive. In my personal mod I've made the special engines -- half the size and less than half the cost (but more than fighter engines) -- and this helps a great deal with the cost. They still cost about as much as a satellite, which is multi-use while a drone is not, but that's better than half the cost of a cruiser!

As far as explore and patrol, yes, I posted several times in the beta forums that they would be flooded with requests for these two functions if they didn't include them. This is the FIRST use that most people think of for them, not combat. All I can say is, send in those emails. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I hope he will implement remote refueling, too, but that might be more difficult.

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

One short example against the more versatile drones: If you could command drones to move around you could also easily use them for defense. In a system with 10 planets you can build an average of 6 to 7 drones per turn. Each of this drones will Last at least 5 rounds. You don’t need any spaceyards to build those. You don’t have to pay maintenance. But you could easily park them on a warp point and build a very very powerful defense with about 25 to 30 drones on defense at all times. As it seems MM found this to unbalancing so he decided against it. But if you think it should be altered mail Aaron about it. As we all know, MM is listening to the community very carefully.

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

If you want to play the definitions game, try this one:

If something is done intentionally, it is NOT A BUG. It's a design decision. This is where the flame part of your statement came in- accusing MM of releasing a game with a known bug when in fact you've named nothing of the sort.

There's much in SE4 that doesn't agree with current military terms.

EDIT: here's a few
Battleship: a warship of the largest and most heavily armed and armored class. In SE4? A ship of 800kt. Dreadnaughts and baseships are bigger.

"Shields" in current terms are nothing like SE4 shields. Neither are ion engines. "Capital Ship Missles" can be mounted on pretty much anything other than a fighter.

Phoenix-D

[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]</p>

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

Err.. yeah, so a little tension here... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Well, I can definitely see Jourin's point about looking forward to getting one thing and definitely not getting it. Unfortunately definitions and thus expectations are just too flexible, especially when MM is in the business of creating a pretend, futuristic Universe.

Personally, I'd love to see (1) the Drones get cheaper, which is easily enough to mod (see below) and (2) some drones being capable of scouting through warp points, which is not modable.

My suggestion: ask MM to make a special component that allows Drones to go through warp points (how about a "warp motivator"). Make it either prohibitively expensive or (my favorite) just make it big... like half the size of the Drone. Thus people will be able to create warpable drones, but these will still be inferior to small ships because you end up with less space for additional components.

Just my thoughts on it all. Hope y'all have a good day. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

-jimbob

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

This example of 30 drones on a warp point doesn't sound at all unbalancing to me, if someone is spending the output of ten planets to build it. It's going to be effective against some attackers, but quite expensive to maintain. I don't think it'd be more effective than alternative defenses using the same or fewer resources. The drones I've encountered (even in swarms of 30 or so) have not been all that hard to shoot down, and they expire pretty quickly, can't gain experience or be resupplied or carry cargo.

It's also probably a lot less efficient than building cargo/launcher bases at the warp point and filling them with drones that can wait for something to attack, and won't expire. This can be done without a move order for drones.

PvK

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by [K126]Mephisto:
One short example against the more versatile drones: If you could command drones to move around you could also easily use them for defense. In a system with 10 planets you can build an average of 6 to 7 drones per turn. Each of this drones will Last at least 5 rounds. You don’t need any spaceyards to build those. You don’t have to pay maintenance. But you could easily park them on a warp point and build a very very powerful defense with about 25 to 30 drones on defense at all times. As it seems MM found this to unbalancing so he decided against it. But if you think it should be altered mail Aaron about it. As we all know, MM is listening to the community very carefully.<hr></blockquote>

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

Except that drones can already move through warp points - if their target is on the other side of one. There's just no way to give them orders to do so without a target, which IMO should be changed.

PvK

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jimbob:
...
Personally, I'd love to see (1) the Drones get cheaper, which is easily enough to mod (see below) and (2) some drones being capable of scouting through warp points, which is not modable.

My suggestion: ask MM to make a special component that allows Drones to go through warp points (how about a "warp motivator"). Make it either prohibitively expensive or (my favorite) just make it big... like half the size of the Drone. Thus people will be able to create warpable drones, but these will still be inferior to small ships because you end up with less space for additional components.
...<hr></blockquote>

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

There seems to be a misconception sneaking into the discussion here. Drones definitely CAN go through warp points. What they cannot do is move anywhere without a designated target to attack. So, even if you've seen an enemy system you cannot launch attacks without 'live' recon data. I find this a problem, as do others. I hope 'move to' and 'explore' will be added to drones soon in a patch. I don't see a reason to restrict this ability with any extra expenses/component, either. These are both very simple missions that a drone computer should be able to comprehend.

On the other hand, I don't see drones as useful 'sentinel' weapons like satellites. They have a fixed supply usage per turn and cannot be recovered. So, once launched they are counting down to destruction one way or another. You can set that supply usage very low, of course. I do wish he would change it to 'minimum per turn' rather than a fixed level no matter what, so that if you burned more than that minimum during movement it would not subtract that much more on top. It affects drone range considerably as it is.

[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]</p>

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

I'm sorry, but I disagree. How do you know that navigating to a Warp point is an "Easy" thing? It could be quite difficult. Also, maybe special equipment is needed to make the jump through a Warp Point which could not be possible in a Drone (too small for example). Personally, I like the way Drones are right now. It keeps them very limited in what you can do with them and you have to really think in order to use them effectively.

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

I think this is a classic example where you could make everyone happy by making a line in the settings text file:

drones can be give move to/warp orders: true/false

Please!

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

I guess Q is right. :-)

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

Let's keep this thread on track.

If you have a complaint about how drones function currently, make it. If you have a suggestion about how to make them "better", let us hear it.

No more arguments about definitions or semantics of whether it's "bug" or a "feature". No more arguments about whether or not it was promised and not delivered.

Keep your head, maintain your cool, say your piece.

Geoschmo

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

If this has been mentioned before, I apoligize. In relation to Drone Defense, are ftrs going to be capable of shooting them down? Ftrs would make a good anit-drone force and would be a cheap way of doing it. Also give the ftrs a little more use at the higher turns when they are not as effective. I have not downloaded demo as I'm waiting for the GOLD, but I'm getting real itchy to start playing, so I might after all.

Also, do the drones have formations? if so defensive tactics/formation may be looked into depending on the numbers involved.

just some ideas mac

[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: mac5732 ]</p>

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Magnum357:
I'm sorry, but I disagree. How do you know that navigating to a Warp point is an "Easy" thing? It could be quite difficult. Also, maybe special equipment is needed to make the jump through a Warp Point which could not be possible in a Drone (too small for example). ...<hr></blockquote>

We know because they can do it as a matter of course if the target they are tracking is visible to any satellite, ship, or colony in the drone's empire. They can already pass through warp points - that's not the issue. The issue is whether you should be able to give them orders to move to a location - they already have the ability to warp.

PvK

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

It sounds like if there are really people who don't want drones to be able to warp (which would be a NEW limit), then perhaps two lines in settings.txt would be ideal:

Drones can be given move/warp orders := true/false
Drones can pass through warp points := true/false

Of course, if the new limit on warping were set to false, then the drones should not accept target or destination orders that aren't in the same system that they are.

Mac's questions:

Can fighters shoot down drones? Yes, as long as they have weapons that can hit them (no torps or missiles), and an appropriate strategy.

Do drones have formations? I don't think drones can be added to fleets, so no. The best you can do is launch them and target them so they move in a horde. This helps a fleet of ships to be able to just chew them up with beam weapons and PD.

PvK

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

PvK, would it be beneficial to give the drones some tactical formations besides the option of the horde/mass movement? This possibly could make them a little harder to take out by defense ships/ftrs, leaving at least the chance of some/few to get thru the defenses no matter how much aa you put out, similiar to Kamkazies in WWII, some always managed to get thru and do damage. This in turn would cause or create some new tactics/strategies, I just don't know if 1. AI could handle it, and 2 if it is even workable
or is worth looking into. I'm not a programmer or modder, but working on it (modding)

just some ideas mac

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

I think drones should be able to accept warp/move to orders, but should be unmovable after they reach their destination.

This way they'd be good for reconisence and attacking unseen targets that you know are there. Additionally, they wouldn't be unbalancing as warp point defense because of their limited fuel; satellites and fighters would still be superior.

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mac5732:
PvK, would it be beneficial to give the drones some tactical formations besides the option of the horde/mass movement? This possibly could make them a little harder to take out by defense ships/ftrs, leaving at least the chance of some/few to get thru the defenses no matter how much aa you put out, similiar to Kamkazies in WWII, some always managed to get thru and do damage. This in turn would cause or create some new tactics/strategies, I just don't know if 1. AI could handle it, and 2 if it is even workable
or is worth looking into. I'm not a programmer or modder, but working on it (modding)

just some ideas mac<hr></blockquote>


Drones could be more effective when used in formation, because they might arrive more at once and faster rather than the way they currently mob along and sometimes get slowed by each other and arrive in a less concentrated group than might otherwise be possible. It might be good for players to try the current system for a while though to see if they really need to be more powerful or not, though. On the other hand, it might have side effects that would be disadvantageous, since the entire group would be homing in on the same target, and might ignore other ships en route (target orders can be given to drones in strategies, but I haven't studied how these override the assigned target for ramming or weapon drones, if at all) I imagine it might involve a fair amount of work to program, but I'm not sure.

The drones I've mostly run into so far have been pretty low-tech and so not so hard to deal with. For example, I just had three light cruisers with one or maybe two PDC between them, and some beam weapons, encounter nineteen small low-tech simple warhead drones. Only two of the drones made it to a target - the rest were shot down. The cruisers did have first-rate fire control, though. I think more advanced drones with ECM and/or shields could have made a large difference, though, but you can see that drones can be dealth with. I think in this case if the drones could have used a formation it might have been closer - even more than ship combat, combat with ramming drones tends to be a landslide win for one side or the other - if they don't all get shot down, they will do a lot of damage. If there is enough firepower to shoot them down as they come in, probably only a few or no hits will be scored. I haven't seen much use of weapon-armed drones using stand-off tactics - those would be a different story. And of course, these are drone-vs.-ship scenarios - if the drones also had ships on their side, it could tip the scales, and so on.

PvK

Re: Drone and Anti-Drone Tactics?
 

All I really would like out of drones is the ability to launch them at planets that I have seen, but can't see any more. I just want 'em to be big 'ole cruise missles, but for now I need to have a spotter for 'em to launch - but not 'til they hit; it's enough to see it while launching. So it would seem just as reasonable to lemme shoot at planets that I know are there but can't see any more.

Oh, and if I were to get really demanding, a "go-through-the-warp-point-and-attack-the-nearest-enemy-planet (ship)" order would be nice, too. But the former bit would be enough for me.

E. Albright