Re: IDF OOB project.
 

54 ???

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Don,
At your convenience but, how much of Amit's work here were you able to incorporate into the last patch? Or maybe better what didn't get done if easier to answer. We had been on the PM side until about mid winter or just before. Turned out we would follow the same/similar career path after our military careers. Anyway the MEGACH SPIKE NLOS got me thinking about his work here and I would like to see any loose ends addressed if I can help make that happen.
Thank You.

Regards,
Pat

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

So...I join in the question...How much of this has been done already? A quick check showed me that at least some has. Just wondering if to move forward along the OOB or not, now that I am back?

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

ill just start by reading through the last questions here and seeing to them.

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Early 90s would be my best guess.

Magach 6 Gimel, or 6C as per the oob format right now, were M60A3 tanks delivered to Israel directly from USA stockpiles in europe. They should be identical to M60A3 in its USA form, only with TI. I actually did mention that in the Magach post. So actually, I think the unit is OK(!!)

The experience -5 is rather okey, considering it represents not only actual combat experience but level of routine training. The -5 moral is odd to me but I can understand it as well. I think your solution is very good. In any case as you mention the IDF oob is very strong this is almost a non issue.



A Note: IDK how I wrote 54 for the Merkava MK 3 ammo load- the number is 46, as I mentioned in the same post(i guess i was doing that late at night or something?!)

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

In the Artillery Corps, in either of the several battalions, which one of them are towed field guns? I have not found a battalion fielding any piece other than self-propelled guns in the publicly available sources.

Yet, the Israel OOB: obat04, has several towed pieces, most prominent is the 155mm.

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Re: IDF OOB project.
 

The M71 Towed Howitzer was used by certain reserve units...Specifically for airborne operations. The last ones were withdrawn from service 2014.

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Glad to see the revival of this project, especially in the fields of mortars, inf-AT and artillery.

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

All three of which will be incredibly hard to get right btw. I just spent one hour trying to figure out what light AT/RPG types actually saw service with the IDF and which did not.

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Okay, so in obat04, the Israel OOB, for Unit Class 9, the towed FA, should we change the unit availability for those units with end dates of 120 to reflect that they've been pulled from service in 2014?

-----

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

I think that this requires a more in depth check before we remove towed guns from the oob completely...I need to try and find a person who knows if there are other towed guns I don't know of. You have to remember the IDF has a massive reserve force with many strange units and capabilities. I will get to towed guns it will just take a while.

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

I would not favor removing towed guns because that would hamper the development of scenarios for earlier periods. I'd say, cap the availability of towed guns to 2014. No purchases beyond 2014 if it is true that the Artillery Corps removed towed pieces in 2014 in favor of SP units.

----------

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Okay we need to roll back now for a few moments:

Unit 70: "Nagman" - an extremely confusing unit. Nagman is a M113 with protected superstructure from the early 1990s. But the unit is date to 2000, and the image is of a modification named "Kasman Magen". These had larger fully enclosed superstructures for operations in the West Bank and Gaza. They also had Vayzata armor and sometimes Classical armor! I am not sure if it's worth going into this mess at all? Thoughts?

Units 071 and 078: I remain skeptical that the 30mm Eitan will happen, but if it will it has not yet. As I mentioned elsewhere the current status is the IDF ordered several hundred Eitan AFV's in 2018. They have gone through some training with the Nahal brigade but are not fully online yet. I suggest: Unit 071 and 078: Change start date to 6/19.

M113 chaos:

Unit 083: "Nagmash" - I see this was changed from Bardelas to Nagmash. That's fine. This is, as I mentioned in this thread before, the vanilla M-113. It is very much still in service with reserve units. I will repeat this comment for all M113s- the vastly common armament is the MAG and not the M2HB(source: I was a M113 commander for the last 8 years) suggest:
Unit 083: Change end date to 12/25, change weapon slot 1 to weapon 052 7.62mm FN AAMG

Unit 084 and 098: "Vayzata" is a type of armor applied to M113s. It is a statistical armor meant to cause tumbling in MMG and HMG rounds before they reach the main armor of the vehicle. As it is spaced from the vehicle it gives somewhat of a poor addition to HEAT protection (probably not enough to even stop a rifle grenade). An M113 with this package on is called Nagmash Vayzata or Zelda, this does not merit two units and there should not be different stats. Again the common armament is MAGs. I suggest:
Give unit 084 the armor values of 098(which are slightly loweer). Change armament to 1 MAG AAMG and if you wish another MAG in slot 2.Keep current name of 084.

Unit 085: "Zelda 2" - the later ERA add on plates for M113s never really went into service, but what did is the Classical which is infact the image used for this unit and what the icon looks like. I would:
Rename unit 085 "Classical" and change armament to weapon 052.

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

70 is easily adjusted for date and armour I have no idea how that could be turned into something described as "this mess" unless you feel it shold not be in the same class as the other Heavy APC's

85 used to be the "Classical".... I'm not sure why it was renamed Zelda 2. Now.... you say it should be renamed back to classical.......OK easy to do and so is changing the 12.7 to a 7.62 FN.... but you say the ERA never happened but don't say they should be removed

??

83 has now been adjusted as has 84 and 98 is "re-nationalize"(so it's still in the OOB but won't show up in the game)

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

The issue with 70 is it can be either of 3 different M113s with superstructure. And I am not sure which it should be. To be honest the practical differences for the game are small.

You see Nagman is short for Nagmash Memugan...This would be IDF M113s with protected superstructures. At first with pen roof, later with closed roof. This started being a thing probably in the mid 80s...Now by 2000 there were two major types of this superstructure. They were generally referred to as Kasman. Kasman/Magen is a large superstructure, Kasman/Maoz is a small superstructure.

And I am not sure this merits 2 or 3 seperate units...
As far as being a HAPC...I guess? In hull protection it is just a M113 with Vayzata. The superstructure is probably MMG proof. Sometimes they had cage armor for RPGs...It's a mess because these are all add ons. To make things worse these were not even that numerous, they were spread out in FOBs that needed them...

Zelda 2 vs Classical: Re-reading my message I see the confusion. Classical was the common name for M113s with ERA and small open top superstructure (as well as an improved break system). Zelda 2 is the name of an armor package which I believe is later to Classical, but even if I am wrong (and they are the same) no one ever called any vehicle in service Zelda 2.

What is the "???" for?

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

I am sorry that this is so weird but the IDF just has a whole mess of M113s and official names and common names are not always the same at all.

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

The "Heavy APC" unit name is not always an indicator of what the actual function of the APC is... it just one way to differentiate between different apcs my point in this case was should it be in the same formations as the others in that class..( forget what the class is called )

70 can simply be an amalgamation of subtypes of the same basic vehicle

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

If that is the case I would change the Name to Kasman, give it similar hull armor to 084/098.

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

You said "Unit 085: "Zelda 2" - the later ERA add on plates for M113s never really went into service"

OK.....The name is back to "Classical" but do I remove the ERA that is now added to unit 85 ?

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Ah I confused the hell out of you. Sorry.
No, keep the ERA.

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

No problem. This is minor stuff compared to some for the WW2 game.

The units in the Israeli OOB that use the "Heavy APC" unitclass now......


Units of class 120 Heavy APC

070 - Kasman - Available 01/092 to 12/125
420 - Nagmachon - Available 01/104 to 12/125
421 - Nagmachon - Available 01/082 to 12/103
422 - Puma - Available 01/091 to 12/125
423 - Nakpadon - Available 01/094 to 12/125

are "orphans" not used by any higher formation involving infantry and only show up as "3 Hvy APCs" under Misc. when a player needs "3 Hvy APCs" for their infantry. ( which probably means they are rarely used ) as they seem to be more "security" APC's as opposed to combat APC's like the Achzarit and Namer and therefore more of a "scenario" unit

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

You are correct indeed. With the exeption of the Puma which was (I think still is in some units) the main APC for combat engineers. All the others were sed in outposts and not in maneuver elements.

BTW there is actually an entirely new command APC missing from the OOB I will get the details tomorrow.

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

OK but the Puma is still in the engineering formations but only with dozer blade or Roller on the front. The one in the Heavy APC formation represents the ones that are not used by engineering units

I noticed the Nakpadon did not have it's own Icon

it does nowhttp://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1543421132

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

I came very close to stealing one of those once to tow my tank but luckily even 20 years old me was not stupid enough.

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Unit 086 Achzarit. As far as I know and Hebrew wikipedia supports me on this, the vehicles were put into actual service in 1988. At the least they were produced that year and entered service 1989. In addition there are actually two marks of the Achzarit, and several rounds of improvements in between...
The Mk 2 has a stronger engine and other internal improvements. Some also have a protected commanders "aquarium" and remote weapon system with 0.5 M2HB. The Mk 2 started production in 2010 and AFAIK all Achzarit were to be upgraded. That said in 2014 I still saw operational Mk 1 during my service in the war. For simplicity I suggest splitting to two units:
Unit 086 Achzarit: change start date 1/1989
Create a new unit named Achzarit Mk 2, it should be based on 086 but have: higher speed (maybe 15?), weapon slot 1 changed to weapon 055 M2HB AAMG. Vision,Fire control, LRF and stabilizer identical to unit 087 as it uses the same "Katlanit" RWS. Icon could probably do with a slight change to reflect the different look. Start date 1/2011 end date 2025.

Pictures for reference:

https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90...chi-Evenor.jpg

https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90...753870844).jpg


Also there possibly is an issue of the vision stats for the Namer which I have just noticed. AFAIK the night sight clearly visible in the images is a Thermal Imaging sight. Vision for the Namer units and any others with the Katlanit should reflect this...

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

The photos didn't appear but I started looking around on the net and ? perhaps ? the photo we are using now for unit 97 Namer MICV RWS is, in fact, an Achzarit Mk2 ?

........ and could it be that this...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1543484314

is the Namer MICV with the 30mm cannon ? ( which it appears is not actually in service...yet ? )

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

I believe the photo for 097 is an Achzarit with an auto cannon in a large variant of the Katlanit. The Achzarit 2 does not have an auto cannon. But yes, it is for sure an Achzarit and not a Namer, it's probably a test vehicle or prototype that never went anywhere.

The turreted Namer you linked a photo of is indeed the latest (in a confusing series) of turreted Namer variants. However this one seems to be very close to going into service. It is being displayed again and again. I believe it's in operational trials.

You can see here on display in IDF officer course ceremony:
MLRS Menatetz
PUMA with the new Drakonit 12.7mm RWS (similar to Katlanit, and **** now we have to deal with that...We will get to it)
Eitan with I think a Katlanit 12.7mm
Merkava Mk 4M
Namer with 30mm unmanned turret
Ofek heavy command vehicle (which we will need to deal with down the line)

https://2018-uploaded.fresh.co.il/20...1/98121629.jpg

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Lets try those Achzarit Mk.2 photos again:
https://imgur.com/a/yqYX5Hn

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Amit,
Just got home from a lovely cold 12+ shift, and I see you haven't wasted anytime! So I was saving this until I could start "knocking out" the APC Thread issues, but no time like the present...
Israel UNIT 071 EITAN showing fully operational/accepted status entry date as 01/2018, but I came across the following ref that indicates it didn't go into operational testing and evaluation until April this year and now I quote the article dated May 22nd 2018...
"Last April, drivers from the 50th Battalion underwent intensive training with the APC. They spent a week in operational driving conditions and brought the Eitan to a battalion-wide training exercise.


So two things pop into my mind, it's not been fully accepted into the IDF and by definition, not in full production pending acceptance into the IDF.

I have not seen anything from reliable sources that the IDF to this point has accepted it. I know the IDF can move fast once this has been done. My guess is they are on the "cusp" to do so. Based on this my thinking is 06/2019 or 10/2019 would be a better date(s).
http://www.armyrecognition.com/may_2...nse_force.html

Your thoughts please.

Since this is a date issue as well UK AJAX UNIT 602 is in the same situation with entry date 06/2017. My ref. dated 15 JUN 2018 is indicating it's still in OP EVAL status with units not reaching the field until "...early 2019...", so my thinking having more info on the AJAX is that 06/2019 might be a better entry date.
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...ntracts-01130/

As some know, I've been posting on all things FRES since it started. That being said and having used it in my long campaigns (17-29 battles), I have to say the AJAX as in the game plays as I would expect it to perform in the "real world" based on all the data I've been able to collect on it over the years. WELL DONE Don!!

Well I need to "hit the rack" so I can have more such fun later to day into tomorrow morning, as I just experienced!?

Have a good day everyone!!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Unit 090 White Armored Car.

These were manufactured/restored/converted based mostly on M3 scout cars. At the peak the fleet included 40 of these, which is quite a large number in 1948 IDF terms.
The early versions were available as early as 5/48. They were armed with MG34s only. Later, in October 48, they started arming them with cannons. The first were armed with the cannons of H-39 tanks which were found mechanically serviceable and so the guns were reused for the armored cars. others were armed with 2pdr captured guns.

I suggest splitting into 2 units:
Unit 090 should have the 37mm replaced With an MG34. Start date changed to 5/48.

A new unit identical to the current 090 but with weapon 080 37mm SA37 M.39 or weapon 240 2pdr gun. The 2pdr was probably more common but the 37mm is more historically interesting. should be created with start date 10/48.

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

On the cusp seems an apt description for both Eitan, 30mm Eitan and 30mm Namer. The latter 2 for sure. Eitan may be operational, but if it is it just happened.

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Frankly I am shocked that the 30mm versions are happening.

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

I'll be changing that but a little differently...the existing unit will get the SA37 and the new unit will be MG only

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

I found a much better photo of it undergoing trials but methinks the name needs to change as well....that is more than "just" a "RWS" that's a IFV..do you know if it has the same carry capacity ?

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Close enough ?

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/ofek-...arrier.416398/

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1543515746

The question is how far back the superstructure goes and if its square or hexagonal that is not really clear in the photos.

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Okay so let's get all these older Armored Cars out of the way.

Unit 091 "GMC A/Car"
This is somewhat confusing but as far as I can tell from various forums as well as a book about IDF ordnance in the early years, these were GM Canada made Otter Light Reconnaissance Cars that were used by the British Police in the Mandate of Palestine. ~10 of these were stolen in various and hilarious ways (Imagine getting off your A/Car to get a pack of smokes and the Hagana steals the thing before you get back).
I have 2 images of the modified Otters in IDF service, both have machine guns only and no guns. Both have a M1919 in the turret, and the hull gun on one is an MG34 while the other has a second M1919 in the hull. The M1919 was quite rare in 1948, the MG34 was far more common. I suggest therefor:
Change unit 091 name to "Otter A/Car". Replace weapon in slot one to MG34. Remove the weapon from slot 3 entirely. Change start date to 5/48.

Unit 092 Humber Mk II is okay, there were some other variants but they are not really that different to the other A/C in the OOB. Do you wish me to specify or should we live this alone?

Unit 093 "Marmon-Herr IVF" as with 092 this is fine, however there was also a turretless version captured and used. Not sure if worth the trouble.

Unit 095The Panhard had a very short career in the IDF. Yes, even shorter then depicted in the OOB. They were only purchased in 1966, for Duchifat - an airborne recce/AT unit. The idea was to use them as AT support/armor for the paratroopers. But they were too heavy when combat ready to be used well by IAF transports of the time. They were used in 1967 and in 1968 and took horrible casualties. Hence they were removed from service. I suggest:
Unit 095: change start date to 1/67 and end date to 12/68

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

We'll leave 92 and 93 alone the rest is now done

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Heavy Metal on the move...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1543531487

edit....forgot one the first time. There may be further adjustment before release. I'm not entirely happy with the Namer 30mm turret

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

loving the "colours" you are managing to create with the limited palette!

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Air Defense

This post was sourced using the IAF website and IAF Air Defense School website.

A recorded kill for the Chaparral on the 6th of May 74. This is the first recorded kill by the system world wide and also means we must change the start date to early 74. Also Unit 100 is named M730 while 101 is named M48A3. We either go with 730 or M48. In the USA OOB it is M48.

Unit 101 unless I am missing something is there to represent the Block 6 systems exported to Israel in early 1999. The difference in game seems to be better EW and vision. The weapon is identical(and should probably be renamed MIM-72). However in 1993 the IDF made upgrades to its Chaparrals, installing the "Aramit" system which improved the RADAR display and "improved target acquisition"...


I suggest-
To represent the original Chaparral from 1974 until IDF upgrade
Unit 100: change name to "M48 Drakon" change start date to 1/74. End date to 12/93. Copy Stats from USA OOB unit 049, as currently this units is better than it's US counterpart which makes 0 sense.

To represent the IDF upgrade in 1993:
Unit 101: change Name to M48M Drakon . change start date to 1/93. Give it the EW and vision stats currently in unit 100.

To represent the systems imported in 1999:
Create a new unit copying the stats from USA unit 207, and name it M48A1 Drakon. Start date 1/99.

All of these can use the current icon 2223 so at least no modeling work!

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Unit 112: I can not source it but as mentioned in hebrew wikipedia and as AFAIK the HAWK was retired in 2014 to allow budgeting David's Sling/Magic Wand. To be conservative David's Sling became operational in 2/2016.

I suggest adding David's Sling to the OOB in the following manner:

Unit 112 : change end date to 12/16

Create a new weapon: "Stunner SAM" as for stats I am not sure because frankly I do not know how every stat works. But:
Range should be maxed out.
Minimum range should be quite short.
The warhead is not an explosive one but very fast and meant to kill targets by directly hitting them with KE. So it should probably have high HE pen and low HE kill?

After the weapon is sorted out -
Creat a new unit "David's Sling". Start date 2/16 end date 12/25. General stats should probably be similar to Unit 112 but with better radar (because it has both a more advanced radar and an electro optic system). In slot 1 weapon should be the one we just created "Stunner SAM". HE ammo should be 12.

For an icon reference:

https://www.idf.il/media/8681/3.jpg

https://www.idf.il/media/8680/2.jpg

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Unit 114 "Ha'Poretz" - do we know where the name came from? It translates to "The Breakthrough(er)". This seems like it was a name of a specific Sandwich with dozer blade. If so I would suggest - Change Unit 114 name to "Sandwich Dozer"



Units 117 and 123 should match the latest reserve Sh'ots in the OOB.
Unit 117 change end date 12/02
Unit 123 change end date 12/202

Unit 118 "Tiran Dozer" - I suggest change end date of Unit 118 to 12/89 to match the latest Tiran 5 date in the OOB.

Unit 124: as we don't have a reserve unit for the 90mm Mag'ach, I think we can change the end date to match unit 020. so Unit 124: change end date 12/69.

Unit 125 "M60 Mine Plough". The only Patton not renamed to Mag'ach in the OOB. Change unit 125 name to "Mag'ach Mine Plough".

Units 127-129 are Mine Roller variants of Merkavas. However dates and stats are mismatched with the MBT and Reserve Tank units. To fix this as much as possible I suggest:

Unit 127 Merkava 1 MR : Change start date 9/79 end date to 12/14.Match all stats to unit 057

Unit 128 Merkava 2 MR : Change start date 1/84 end date to 12/20.Match all states to unit 058.
You may notice this is past the latest Mk 2 in the OOB, but my old unit STILL runs them, so we must extend that date forward to reflect they were not removed!
So as a side note:
Unit 631 Merkava 2b: change name to Merkava 2B and change end date 12/20.
Unit 622 Merkava 2b: change name to Merkava 2B

Unit 129 Merkava Mk 3 MR : Change start date to 05/90. Match stats for unit 062 or 063

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Done.

side note "Mag'ach Mine Plough" will not fit the allowed number of characters.......but "Mag'ach Plough" will

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Amit,
I'm finding that the "STUNNER SAM" is more like what "AEGIS" is to the USN...simply put, a missile killer. It's designed to shoot down short range (i.e. Iranian SCUD), Ballistic (i.e. Russia's latest MSN system) and cruise missiles.
This ref. I deem pretty reliable based on source and some might recognize some refs. I've used over the years that have been more then reliable as listed on the bottom of the ref. below.
http://missiledefenseadvocacy.org/mi...-sling-israel/
https://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/irondome

It should be noted this missile represents only 1/3 of the missile capability of the IRON DOME System.

I'm thinking this might be the wrong missile for the game?

Now "DAVIDS SLING" is the one we want and represents another 1/3 of the "ID" system, were the "STUNNER SAM" is the long range missile killer, "DAVIDS SLING" is the Medium Rng. missile killer that's also designed to take down very accurately, aircraft as well.
https://www.raytheon.com/capabilitie...ts/davidssling


Getting short cycled to end my work week to a "normal" so for to...well you should know by now! :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

I was under the impression there is only one missile for the David Sling system and the English name for it is Stunner. It really is more a matter of naming as long as in game it works as we want it to represent David's Sling medium range AA ability. Name the missile itself whatever.

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Yeah BUT Pat...... that link says........"David's Sling's maneuverable, two-stage, hit-to-kill Stunner missile destroys threats through sheer force of impact."

so the initial post is correct --David's Sling uses the Stunner missile

and another source says it will replace the Patriot..but doesn't say when

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

Light AT units:

On the 21st of October 1973 during operation Magbit 16, S-13 operators already used M72 LAW launchers to attack Egyptian missile boats.
This confirms the LAW was delivered during the Yom Kippur war.
I suggest either
Unit 132 : Change start date to 10/73
Or making some sort of SF unit that brings the LAW into play from 10/73 till the currently in OOB 1/75 start date. Further down I will explain why this may possibly be relevant to the Shipon team, Unit 138.

Going from this unit 133 AT4/M136. I simply can not find a source for this ever being in the IDF. I found one picture of an IDF soldier posing with it, but he was training with US troops and just posed.
Possibly remove unit 133?

Unit 137 RPG-7 Team : Change end date to 1/08. this is conservative. Only in late 2007 did the IDF release that it is retiring the RPG-7, and I am not even sure it fully happened by 01/08 but let's be optimistic. This is also going to be important down the line for infantry units...

Unit 138 Shipon is quite a challenge. The Shipon is indeed around from 2000 or 2003, depending who you ask...But it's not serving like the LAW or RPG-7. It is fielded by special forces. It's use in the OOB as a Inf-AT unit is problematic. Is there some solution you can think of? It is also worth mentioning that the weapon itself (Weapon 19) has weird stats. For one thing Shipon is a tandem warhead rocket but it is not classed like that. Also it's accuracy is identical to the RPG-7 in the Israeli OOB, but really it should be far higher. The SMAW in the US OOB is based on the B-300 like the Shipon, and is a cousin of Shipon. It has 10 accuracy in game while Shipon has 5...Shipon, it is worth noting, has a LRF and digital FCS...
I am not suggesting anything just sharing the info waiting for replies.

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

I'll look into the Shipon issue at some point. I have a note to do so

Note what wiki says........."various reports stated in error that it was an Israeli improved and manufactured version of the Russian RPG-7."

that would explain why it had the same rating as the RPG

The range we have is also too great so this thing probably should be integrated into a Sayeret Section and not be an AT team

Re: IDF OOB project.
 

That would probably be best. In that case I would suggest doing the same with pre 01/75 LAW.

More to come soon. I think if I run with it we can get her done in a couple of weeks.