Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

Well ... as has been shown again and again ... there's no such thing as an invulnerable system. And not being invulnerable hardly means useless. A PzKpfz II (the WW II light tank with a 20mm) would be an absolute terror on a battlefield that lacks any sort anti-armor weapons.

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

As one of the end game screen messages says........
......and if go by youtube videos there seems to be a plethora of AT weapons in Syria ATM......and cameras recording their use

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

According to this site: http://e-amyna.com/%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%B...B%CE%B5%CE%B9/

...the confirmed casualties from the Turkish army's sources are (given in the following format):

Date
Event
Personnel casualties with approximate US rank(*notes conscripts)


1)Aug-28-16
M60A3TTS hit in Al-Amarneh, Jarablus
Sergeant (Armor) Ercan Chelik + 3 wounded

2)Aug-30-16
M60A3TTS hit in Killyah, Western Jarablus
4 wounded

3) Sep-6-16
2 M-60Ts hit in Wuquf, Al-Rai
Sergeant (Armor) Muhammed Koshan, Sergeant (Armor) Ziya Oezkozanoolu, Sergeant (Armor) Osman Karakush, Sergeant (Armor) Akif Gules + 4 wounded

4) Sep-9-16
M60T hit in Al-Rai
Sergeant(Armor) Burak Turkoolu, Corporal (Armor) Burak Karakoch, Sergant (Armor) Halil Gedik +1 wounded

5) Sep-18-16
Mine clearing vehicle hit
no casualties

6) Sep-20-16
Premature detonation of mine
Staff Sergeant (Engineers) Bayram Kara, Sergeant(Engineers) Burak Uchar

7) Sep-27-16
UAV attack in Wuquf, Al-Rai
3 wounded

8) Oct-5-16
Firefight in Ziraya
Corporal (Infantry) Ali Goelge + 3 wounded

9) Oct-6-16
Mortar fire, 2 M60Ts hit in Akhtarin
Captain (SF) Alper Kocaman + 3 wounded

10) Nov-13-16
Unidentified tank hit in Hazwan

11) Nov-16-16
Unidentified tank hit in Kadiran

12) Nov-19-16
Accident with causes unknown
Private(artillery) Oouz Demir*

13) Nov-23-16
Unidentified tank hit NW of Al-Bab

14)Nov-24-16
Air Strike
1st Lieutenant(SF) Zafer Er, Staff Sergeant (SF) Halit Topuz, , Staff Sergeant (SF) Erdal Bolat, Sergeant Melih Oezcan +10 wounded

15) Nov-25-16
Firefight in Al-Bab
Sergeant (Infantry) Kader Acar +3 wounded

16)Nov-28-16
M60T Sabra hit

17)Dec-7-16
VBIED vs. M60T and ACV-300 near Al-Bab
Sergeant(Commando) Ahmed Shahin+6 wounded

18)Dec-11-16
Leo-2A4 hit W of Al-Bab, VBIED in Zurzur
Unspecified number of wounded

19)Dec-12-16
2 Leo-2A4s hit W of Al-Bab
Unspecified number of wounded, loss of vision for Corporal Abdulkadir Dirmilli

20)Dec-16-16
M60T and Cobra hit in Aqeel hill, Al-Bab
1st Sergeant(SF) Volkan Kulekchi + 1 wounded

21)Dec-19-16
VBIED in Al-Bab
Corporal (Infantry) Fatih Olcay + 5 wounded

22)Dec-21/22-16
Leo-2A4s hit, AIFV-AFV, Kirpi APC, firefight and 3 VBIED attacks. Loss of flag and materiel for the 1st Commando Brigade W of Al-Bab
Major(SF) Bulent Albayrak, Staff Sergeant(artillery) Oender Pinar, Sergeant(Infantry) Akien Acar, Sergeant(Infantry) Oktay Durak, Sergeant(SF) Ferhat Demir, Staff Sergeant(commando) Goektan Oezupek, 1st Sergeant(infantry) Oemercan Yekebaacie, Sergeant(infantry) Mehmet Koekkaya, Sergeant(SF) Osman Chelik, Sergeant(commando) Burak Boz, Sergeant Hasan Kavuz, Corporal Ali Yielmaz, Sergeant Ali Sezai Yalchien, Sergeant(Armor) Oekkes Karaca, Staff Sergeant (SF air force) Furkan Yavash, Sergeant (SF air force) Okan Altieparmak, Corporal Mehmet Unal, Sergeant Ramazan Karaza, Corporal(commando) Muhammad Borzaslan +33 wounded

In addition to these, 2 POWs (Fethi Shahin, serving in intelligence services of Jandarma and Sefter Tash, conscript soldier of Kurdish background) were executed by ISIS.

In the original source there are videos and photos in every event.

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

Well, looking at the number of crewmen killed vs wounded one would assume the vast majority of those tank kills aren't catastrophic, simply because if they were there would be more dead. A mobility (or other such "out of action") kill is usually repairable so it's hardly a destroyed tank.

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

I assume the UAV and Air Strike hits are friendly fire?

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

I'm not sure about the UAV strike, but the air strike was conducted by the Russian air force. Accidentally or "accidentally"...

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

It seems to me that the arms trade & covert supply of arms seems to be booming, and there not just getting the oudated stuff anymore.
Hezbollah for example seem to have drones now to direct missile attacks. I would not be surprised to find some terrorist groups have more ATGMs than some of the smaller European countries armies do.

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

Judging what you can find on youtube, you may be correct

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

There are plenty of videos showing untrained "users" scoring hits with ATGMs but none showing the misses. I wonder how many are fired and miss / are countered?

OR is it really that easy to kill a MBT?

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

Killing an MBT, with a modern anti tank missile probably is relatively easy, if the crew are poorly trained or not alert and the tank either lacks supporting troops, or those troops are poorly trained or not alert.

Also who knocked out the Turkish tanks. My understanding is that the Turks are much more interested in fighting the Kurds than the so called 'Islamic State' types? From what I have seen and read of the Kurdish Peshmerga fighters they seem to be pretty switched on.

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

There is a pattern in all the videos. All the tanks being hit are static, on top of a hill, sometimes dug in as well and almost always hit from the sides. That means the turkish army (and the syrian one most of the time tbh) is using tanks as gun platforms most of the time, supporting by fire whatever operation is carried. Using tanks like this is quite tricky, since if you don't secure the area well (and they don't), you're quite vulnerable to attacks like this. Tanks are an offensive weapon and they perform excellent at this role. Using them as glorified direct artillery will be hard for the men and the machines.
It seems that the Turks try to use the irregular fighters they support as the grunts in this conflict. Problems is, they aren't exactly top notch fighters and in the latest disaster in Al-Bab, they fled, forcing Turkey to use a commando formation to do the trick. That didn't help them though. Anyway, the above strategy helped minimize casualties somehow, since if you see the service branch in the casualty list, armor together with special forces bears the brunt of suffering. However, none of them (especially armor) is used correctly as a result. If more infantry formations arrive and the irregulars are sidelined, it will help the turkish army perform better (which will mean they'll have more casualties though and it'll make their political leverage for this operation diminish).
Finally, it is quite debatable how much "untrained" the ISIS fighters are, considering they're doing this trick for over 3 years now and many of them were ex-military personnel.

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

Basically they make the mistakes a noob at winspmbt does when facing for the first time a human opponent. :D

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

I don't know how accurate the author of this article is (he claims to be an officer hit by the post-July purges) but if he's right, the situation for the Turks is worse than I thought:

https://purgednato.wordpress.com/201...sion-to-syria/

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

Sounds like rubbish. Propaganda hogwash. Okay, I admit rather crude language, however, my point is that an unsigned Internet piece should not be taken seriously.

So, I could not determine who the "he" is, nor ascertain a name for this so called purged NATO officer.

I could search the domain name for the owner of the site, but it is a Wordpress blog, not sure what information Wordpress publishes on blog owners, not the same as a domain name search I suspect, or maybe it is.

But, why waste my time on an unsigned Internet piece when there are a number of analysis conducted by reputed organizations with first rate analyst that do sign their pieces.

=====

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

I don't know if it is real or not, sounds believable enough but who knows!

I did find one thing funny. That sounds like most players of World of Tanks when their team is losing. For those who don't know, World of Tanks is an action online only game with tanks. Yes I play it a lot.

From what I read in this article, if it is accurate/real, it sounds pretty much possible. Obviously I have no way of knowing if it is. Outside of the loss of life, I don't feel that bad for their problems there. They are fantastic allies, friends and neighbors and all that.

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

I've always wondered why the Bundeswehr has such high ratings post Cold War. Then again it is not like we ever really get to see them in action as such. Even in Afghanistan there wasn't much to report on.

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

Probably a reasonable assumption based on the Wehrmacht.
The regular German Army in WW II was pretty good for the most part, hardly the supermen some folks think they were, but certainly proficient and professional.

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

I can believe what he is saying about the FSA. Post Obama Admin. I think you'd need to be a hard-core cool-aider not to.

NATO's involvement in all of this business in Syria is sketchy at best and it is not like any of the main press outlets in the West are actually on the ground over there.

Anyone who is tends to tell a different story. Either that or they are part of a "human right's organisation". In which case all things military are anathema (unless of course its the locals doing the killing in which case ...:rolleyes:).

Russia, Iran and Assad's boys sure did seem rather busy though.

I'm glad no one is seriously talking about regime change anymore - handing the country over to the rebels was always a bad idea but now that the relationship between ISIS, Al Qaeda in Iraq, FSA and other Jihadi groups in Syria / Iraq has kind of been laid bare I think it would be an especially big ... lapse in judgement.

Lets chalk this one up to the wrong people sitting at the levers of power at the wrong time and hope that fresher winds will prevail.

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

The Wehrmacht? The difference is night and day by now. In the 80s, maybe (the Grenies, Panzertruppen, Gebirgs- /Fallschirmjäger were really well drilled, had an abundance of great kit and some fine allied formations at their side to boot).

But nowadays I'd say morale isn't what it used to be. There was a real dip in the mid 2000s - politics was the cause (the then defence minister scrapped conscription, slashed funding, demobbed a bunch of units and then there was a "scandal" on a training ship of the Bundesmarine.

There are also too many foreigners in the ranks now that the army has been "professionalised". Generation snowflake doesn't want to serve in the ranks so you have to find your recruits somewhere else. A fair amount of Turks, Kurds, Albanians etc. - heh maybe that is why all those young men came to Germany recently :rolleyes:.

Then there is Flinten Uschi :rolleyes:.

(pictured with her friends)
http://www.lachschon.de/item/191964-...riegStrategen/

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

If I handed out the morale/experience lists to 100 players to modify to what they believe would be correct I'm betting I would get back 101 different lists. Few of which would be anything more than personal opinion.

The lists in the game now are our "personal opinions" based on our observations and given the number of nations and the number of decades involved the chances of them being 100% correct is about as likely as anyone proving them 100% wrong.

So........ don't like our numbers? Simple----- put in your own troop quality numbers.

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

Would LOVE to... However as we can only alter formation numbers by +/- 30 its not so easy.

Is there ANY chance it would ever be possible to alter an entire OoB base experience/morale values? (something many modders have been asking about for ages)

Sorry - just to clarify- not disputing any of the current ratings, mainly for whole OOB swap mods, alternate countries, etc.

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1487431785
No......1/.think how that might affect PBEM.......2/ its CODE

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

I don't know who the last guy is (Poland) but you have got to love his face. :)

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

I don't mind and don't intend on changing them or suggesting they be changed. Makes for more entertaining games against the Russians the way things are at present.

The real thing would, of course, be over pretty quick any way. We all like our nukes, after all.