Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

We now have a save game from MBT that shows this. Note that the junk gets placed over V hex markers, buildings and vehicles

https://i.imgur.com/2YJpPzi.png

So YES........ we are taking this seriously and are looking into it

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

This is a freshly random generated beach assault.
After turn 4 it shows junk terrain on the left edge.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Got it. Thanks

That is one big ugly battle.......At least I know somebody tried a winter beach assault. :)

I used grey sand for those to make it more dreary

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Seems to me that I reported this bug along time ago, but no one was very intent on helping me, so I just learned to "go with the flow" as they say. I just pretended it was one those unexplained things that happens on the battlefield and learned to play through it. Hope you guys get it figured out though, because it sure is ugly, and you never know if it's going to get worse or how it's going to effect the game in the future.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

The early reports of this could not be duplicated in the development games. With more examples we have been able to

Did you include a screenshot or save game "a long time ago'?

How long exactly ?

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

My scenario 716 is a winter beach assault, thanks for your graphics!

https://i.imgur.com/zDb56Dr.png

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Also, I am not seeing the "junk terrain" in small maps, it only seems to be in larger sized maps, no?

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

No I didn't include a screenshot, and I used the save game file to just finish the game. I'm sorry to say "I'm not very computer savvy", so I didn't think of sending a file in. I'm not sure exactly how long ago it was, but it was at least a few years ago. In-fact the way time flies, it might have been 5 years or more, I can't remember for sure.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Though completly unintentional, it's still an eerie sight. ;)

The grey sand surely fits to winter beaches...

The battle was 20000 points each to increase complexity, hoping it would help luring out that terrain kobold. :)

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Right now I am just testing what I find. I have not experimented with different map sizes/dimensions to see if that changes anything. For now it does it or does not but I would like to find a ....

Do X then Y and you get junk so that it is predictable and repeatable and predictable and repeatable are the ones that get fixed

If anyone want to test that be my guest :up::up:

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

The MBT map is what I am getting from time to time, and it's ordinarily along ONLY the left side of the map.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Yes that has been established

What I am looking at now is if there is a connection with map size and junk terrain production

OBVIOUSLY WE HAVE A PROBLEM and we are working towards eliminating it. There should not be a map size connection but nothing is certain

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Werent new map sizes added at one point? Namely those that ended on 5?

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Another example is Scenario #12 - Operation Jupiter. Played as AI vs AI, the game crashes for me around turn 35.

Same thing... green hexes on the left of the map. To me, it seems as though this happens in the large scenarios and I've only noticed it since the update before the last one (v.14 ?).

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

That change was made November 2016 which is well before when some are saying they started noticing issues

That would be V10 for WW2 and V11 for MBT

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Large sceanrios or games *MAY* be the trigger but that is what we have a lot of.... we don't really have a lot of small map scenarios

If anyone sees this on a smaller map please post a save

This is what was changed for V14........


1/ For scenario design and editing there is one improvement and one addition

* When editing weapons data in the game editor for any of the four weapons a unit uses, the weapon number of the current weapon now appears when you click on the weapon button. Anyone who has tried to edit weapons data in a scenario in the past will know how much simpler this makes the whole process as in the past the only way to know what weapon # was used was to check the unit in MOBHack and it slowed or discouraged that kind of editing which was normally used to adjust the ammo count. The entire process is much simpler now.
* The Sound used by the weapon is now the final item shown. It would be rare to use it but it is now available and the existing sound # will show when you get to it. You will need to have knowledge of the existing sounds in the game however.


2/ Assault boats would sometimes show as burning wrecks. This has been corrected. They will be removed from the game map when destroyed as was SOP in the past.

3/ The unit name is now reported in the casualty message - this is handy to know which unit actually got hit in collateral damage situations

4/ Armoured cars that were capable of carrying passengers inside will now protect passengers in the same was an APC does. Previously the code considered them to be outside on the hull.

5/ There is now a 250 limit on changing the height and density of a Hex but they still cannot exceed the normal limits already in the game.

6/ Some changes to Engineering units

Engineering infantry now have a slightly reduced chance of inadvertently setting off a mine when entering a mined hex

* The text for mine clearance (second number) has been changed to "(X remaining)"
* Defending engineer infantry will now only clear mines, barbed wire and dragons teeth if they physically enter the hex containing them in order to allow defending engineers to sit just behind the defences without clearing their own defences. It has been a small annoyance for years that if you placed your own engineers just behind your defences they would start clearing them. They still can but when in the defence but now Engineers must enter a mined / Barbed wire/ dragons teeth hex to dismantle their own defences. In the defence they can no longer do that from one hex away.


7 / Aircraft occasionally would enter the map, make their attack run then do an instant 180 and leave the way they arrived. This has been corrected

8/ Passengers will now report "CARRIED BY: "..... normally this is obvious. They are in the vehicle carrying them but occasionally legacy scenarios would have ghost / doppelganger units and this allows those of us that fix these things the ability to know where they are supposed to be and when put into the transport that is already carrying their twins, cease being a ghost unit.

9/ Occasionally on very small maps the game would place V hexes on grey border hexes that neither side could take. This has been corrected

10/ Pressing K was reported in the Help file as a way to turn ID tags on and off quickly. This function did not work but now does. It's very useful for someone who may not like to play with ID tags on all the time but finds it useful for finding stray units. Now pressing K will turn on the ID tags when they are off and off when they are on when the game is being played. K does not work during deployment.

11/ The name of unit that has suffered casualties has been added to the message that appears on the bottom of the screen. It will now read...." Infantry Group - Suffers X casualties (Y)" with X being the number taken now and Y being the accumulated total.

12/ The mission types were being reported incorrectly in winSPWW2 Scenhack Sort / SQL. This has been corrected

13/ Some new flags have been added to customise scenarios Extended game version only
Entering 17 will give you the flag of WW2 era Iraq
Entering 25 will give you the flag of WW2 era Iran
Entering 97 will get you the flag of Denmark
Entering 98 will get you the flag of Estonia
Entering 99 will get you the flag of Lithuania

If you see something that you think might be the cause, let us know. Personally, I don't see anything

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I just confirmed the problem existed before "the update before the last one (v.14)

I installed a copy of WW2 v10 and ran Scenario #12 - Operation Jupiter and after the ( IT NEVER ENDS ! ) opening bombardment I went "junk hunting" along the west edge and it was there..... a little more subtly than some others but I have learned how to find it easily on a green map

The next test will be to go back another couple of releases and do another check

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Confirmed issue exists back to 2011 V4.5

So this is not "recent"

Right now I am looking at turn 2 of 400 Tarawa using a V4.EXE and the green junk is all there

EDIT......... found a copy of winSPWW2 V1........ ran Omaha beach and after the first turn

https://i.imgur.com/VnIUbxO.png

(sigh.......very badwords)

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

So it appears that the "junk" goes back a ways and yet not everyone got a CTD in #9 or there would have been more reports. Also, ditto on #400 I would think. I got the CTD on turn 17 of 400, so others would have noticed this. I vaguely recall playing 400 several years ago and got much further along then 17, I was somewhere in turns 40s or 50s trying to kill of the darn Japs from the island. but that was many moons ago.

Just food for thought.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Andys thinking now is ( my simplified version ) we have an array number that is too low which is causing overflow and the reason it is more noticable now is we add more things every year and what may have only been a inconsequential event in 2006 is now 17 years later, not so iinconsequential

Think straw and a camels back and canary in a coal mine......some peoples systems may be older or more sensitive which is why it was noticed earlier by some people than others.

ALSO..... now lots more people are looking for it AND know what to look for so we get more reports

( think "dog pile")

AND...... it seems to have been noticed more often by people letting the AI play the AI in big scenarios and I have no idea how long they may have been doing that at one sitting.

So........ "the terrain junk" may only be a symptom of the problem not the cause

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Until this is solved this is all we are concentrating on

Here are some questions.. if you have answer or can test and get an answer please do

• is it a large map - if so, from what size upwards
  
• is it a scenario with lots and lots of dugin defenders?
  
• is it a scenario with loads of mines and stuff, trenches (not the foxholes)
  
• is it loads of artillery fires??
  
• Plus - do we have a non-assault scenario that shows this with hopefully no air show or multi regiment stonk at the start?

EDIT............. further questions
Looking at the reported scenarios -

• -seem to be assaults with loads of defence stores - mines etc
• - seems mostly to be seen with seaborne maps( but those just show it more easily so I personally don't think it's the water that does it)
• - loads of troops, especially defenders
• - the defender is on the LHS?

We need to isolate the trigger(s) there are many questions

Finding an example of a small map with small unit counts that generate the junk is probably more helpful than examples with everything dialed to the max.

We KNOW big involved sceanrios have this problem but is it all big involved sceanrios ? is it big involved sceanrios with hundreds of houses ? Lots of arty ? lots of smoke ?

Or can it be seen in smaller maps and smaller games?

What is handy now is the 'U' key allows going to the west map edge and pressing it repeatedly acts like a flashing "beacon for junk" in non water maps




Anyone wanting to be investigative playtesters please do..... the more the merrier there are lots of questions that need answers

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Ran a 3000 point meeter on a 100x100 map and after 4-5 turns did not find anything but this is not a definitive test

I ran an 8750 defender point battle on the same map size and found junk on the grey west map edge....... not a lot but there was some


Ran a 4000 point defender ( UK vs Jap 1942)

60x60 map

Lots of air and arty ( smoke ) and mines etc

Let it run 7 turns

No junk

Ran a 4000 point defender ( UK vs Jap 1942)

85x85 map that is the next size larger than a standard max SP2 map

Lots of air and arty ( smoke ) and mines etc

Let it run 6 turns

No junk


NONE of this is definitive proof of anything.......yet

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

95x95 map----- meeter-------5 turns ran....... no junk

95x95 map----- defend--5600 points------5 turns ran....... lots of arty etc--found junk

95x95 map----- defend--10000 points------1 turn ran....... lots of arty ,smoke etc, etc--found a bit more junk

90x90 map----- defend--14000 points------1 turn ran....... lots of arty ,smoke etc, etc--found a bit more junk and some was three hexes in

70x70 map----- defend--15500 points------1 turn ran....... lots of arty ,smoke , air etc, etc-- lots of junk up to 4 hexes in from the west

45x70 map --- defend--15500 points------1 turn ran....... lots of arty ,smoke , air etc, etc-- junk up to 4-5 hexes in from the west

That last one was interesting in that I could see junk being added with just about every arty stonk...... whether that was the arty or the smoke the arty generated has yet to be determined

BUT...... we have learned a few things......... It is NOT large maps that causes this and it is NOT just older sceanrios

Testing continues

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Just found some junk. This is my test:

Test 1
Human (US) vs AI (German)
June 44
Map: 80x100
15,000 points
Mission: Meeting Engagement
Did not move the US
Turns ran: 10
See some junk.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Thx for the sum-up. :up:

Did only a few tests today, with smaller maps than 50x50 and under 10000 points, but couldn't find junk terrain so far.

I was thinking, that maybe unit movement may contribute to the terrain screw-up. But as of now that's pure guesswork...

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Test 2
Human (US) vs AI (German)
June 44
Map: 80x100
15,000 points
Mission: Assault
Did not move the US, just plotted some OBA for several turns 1-6, then plotted air for turn 7. German air attack on turn 6. While the Fw-190's were attacking I saw some "Junk".
Turns ran: 7
See some junk.

Both of these tests were just random generated battles. Both also had both air and artillery.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Anyone who tests this BE AWARE the results are inconsistant

Detailed above this test
70x70 map----- defend--15500 points------1 turn ran....... lots of arty ,smoke , air etc, etc-- lots of junk up to 4 hexes in from the west

I ran a number of others after that and wasn't seeing junk then I went back and redid this test exactly.........NO JUNK:eek:

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

There is MAYBE something here
https://i.imgur.com/tjMK0LC.png

The location of the junk is more or less opposite where smoke is but about 50 hexes away

Right now anything seems possible. I see it in one test but then another test I don't BUT if the location of the smoke on map has something to do with where the junk is it might be that my second test that did not show junk did not have smoke in the right place

Yeah that's weird....... but so is this bug

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

NOPE......... that didn't work

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

At first I was thinking the junk has something to do with arty or air strikes. But I don't know. This one is hard to replicate.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I assume there are no offmap units in these?

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

With regards to 9 and 400 that would be an incorrect assumption. But with the generated battles then that would be a correct assumption.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Other than OBA of course.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I did watch one and I only saw this once but I had fast arty ON and every time a stonk hit the map, green junk would appear on the west edge..... watched it happen three times but it is not certain if it was the arty or the smoke the arty created that caused it.. but I for sure saw it happen

That was a 45x70 map --- defend--15500 points-

I *THINK* the defenders were on the left side. AI vs AI set up

EDIT

It is worth mentioning that the junk appeared on the west edge very close to the same location vertically as the arty stonks in the middle of the map

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Off or on map units, when I see the junk, it happens regardless.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Likewise I also so the "junk" appear right after a few Fw 190's were making their strafing and bombing runs. Prior to that (turns 1-5 I think) the arty was pounding the map and no "junk".

The thing I am noticing is that 15k points seems to trigger it. I have a test going with 10k and have not seen any "junk" yet.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Just saw the junk appear again during a barrage. Defender was on the left side and it was the attackers arty that started junk appearing

The junk appears around the middle of the west map edge when I saw it appear but by the end of the first turn it was up and down the west map edge

90x90 map 15500 points on the defenders side
377 defender units / 500 attacker

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

This is for those of you who are interested in getting this solved and are willing to put a bit of time

Set up a battle exactly this way

Map 70x70
Defender points 15500
P1 UK defend......... 3 air sorties
P2 Japan attack.......2 air sorties
Date July 1942
AI vs AI

ADDITIONALLY
Preferences
Sound, Animation and message delay all showing NO bar
Battle FX OFF
Everything else is ON including Fast arty and all player preferences set to 100% with both troop quality at XXX

If that creates edge junk for everyone that tries it then we all have a consistant standard and that means both Andy and I have something to work from that we know shows the problem on other computers as well

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

FWIW, being dug in or not does not seem to be a factor. Edge junk appeared with the same set up as above but the battle set up as a Japanese Advance

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Also, Andy ran the same set up and got the same result so once we know others see it too we have a firm base to test

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Got the map junk on turn one, the Jap air flying saw it on the left.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Managed a screenshot.

https://i.imgur.com/0nCRhPb.png

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I did another test same as above except I used June 44, US and Germany and a Meeting Engagement.

Junk on the left.

I never (until today) did AI vs AI and never have seen these steel balls before.

https://i.imgur.com/bsMfHHb.png

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

those are booby traps, which the Germans like to put out when defending in the later war

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Ah I see them now (cannon balls), and that giggled my memory, I put some in the Irish vs Great Britain scenarios I created lol.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Significant development

Ran the same set up but NO ARTY or Mortars for either side just dug in infantry and tanks

Ran 9 turns and there is junk all over the west edge

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Third test, almost the save per DRG but I used:

P1 = UK
P2 = German
May 1941

Everything else the same.

Junk on the the left.

https://i.imgur.com/FvGkF1r.png

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Andy ran a test with the defender setting at 10,000 and the junk still appeared

Anyone interested please keep testing. It's going to take a while to isolate this so any info is helpful

We need to find the point it stops appearing then start looking at that

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Yep, got the junk on the left edge, too, on turn 1.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I will have some time on Sunday will run a couple of tests in both games.