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Re: OT: Star Trek Nemesis
And another thing, I resent people saying that ST2 was single minded. It was probably one of the finest Star Trek shows ever made!
I agree with Hadrian, all those points it talked about in the movie made it really feel that you were on board the Enterprise in real life. When I first watched it (and even today), it felt real and beleiveble. And if it is soooo simplistic, maybe that is whats missing about Star Trek anymore. They try to make it too complex so it ruins the story. |
Re: OT: Star Trek Nemesis
Hey Deathstalker, are you sure about that with B5 and DS9? I may be wrong on this, but I think you might be a little confused. I heard their was a bit of contraversy about which story was written first, B5 or DS9, but I never heard anything that suggested that the writer for B5 approached Paramount to include his story arc to Star Trek.
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And I agree. I think the spirit of Trek died when Roddenberry died. |
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"I don't want anybody to tell me any spoilers, but is this going to be the Last show of the TNG crew? I've heard on a few occassions that it could be. "
Ok, to say this and not spoil shouldn't be too hard to do. But if you watch the trailer it says "A generations final journy..." if you take that and add into the rumors about it and yes this will be the final movie with the TNG cast. It's disappointing to me as this was my favorite cast of them all. "I guess it would make sense too if it was the Last show of the TNG cast, 15 years and Riker still won't make captain??? Maybe he is scared of the big chair huh?" Yeah, 15 years has gone by quick. Of course I don't remember the first 5 of that but hey it's all good. I've seen just about every episode that TNG had. And I wasn't even old enough to know what's going on when it started. (re-runs help with that department) I still watch re-runs on TNN. But yeah, maybe Riker is scared of the big chair. But if you recall during the TV series that many-a-time he was offered the job of captian. But he didn't take it due to the fact that he loved the Enterprise and John-Luc. So looking at that my guess is that he won't take that job due to just that, he loves the ship and crew too much to leave and take command of his own ship. |
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BTW - My opinion about Captain Kirk (and William Shatner, too) has seesawed a bit; he became something of a caricature for a while, but I think Shatner himself has become more interesting recently, and watching the old movies & shows has gotten more enjoyable... well, except for Star Trek 5... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif I agree that Picard was a much more believable captain, but Kirk was fun to watch. Janeway was practically manic-depressive; one moment she'd be bending over backwards to accommodate some idiot alien or whiny crew member, and then she'd be firing a full spread of torps & phasers at an unarmed vessel. Cisco, well, I liked him as Hawk in the old Spenser series; and I have to admit I enjoyed some of the "fluff" episodes in DS9. Real life has prevented me from watching Enterprise... |
Re: OT: Star Trek Nemesis
Director, regarding Janeway, haven't you ever heard that it's woman's perogative to change her mind? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
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"I've heard that it WAS going to be the Last TNG movie, but the actors had such a good time making it that they decided they'd be willing to do another one..."
That'd be cool if they did another one. Although just because they are willing to do another one doesn't mean that they will be in another one. I believe I heard some place that Brent Spiner (Data) was the only one to say that his role in the movies and shows has gotten boring. But that's just what I heard. It probably isn't true. |
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Actually, several trek cast members were surprised by the tagline. But I think that's required since Nemesis paid out 20million to picard and data each in salary. The film's budget was 70million. They said they might make a few mixed crew or even an entirely new crew for the next films or, if this one really makes money, a sequel to nemesis....
They said that about insurrection and even filmed and alternate ending....... Spiner said he was tired of the role and felt he couldn't move forward, so they wrote him out for good. They wrote in the character B-9 incase spiner wanted to return. As for Riker, he said he was after the Enterprise... Maybe they should have wrote a subplot for riker working with shizon.... Anyways, riker gets to move on. B5 v. DS9 scandal... JMS pitched the series to a few paramount executives who turned it down. A year later, just before B5 went into production, DS9 was announced. The basically, the claim is DS9 stole B5's basic story outline. There is some merit to the claim, then again there isn't. B5 had 4 wars in 5 season. DS9 had 3 wars in 7 season. Also, JMS didn't pitch it to the Trek guys. The people responsible for the other crappy UPN sci-fi got the pitch [ June 16, 2003, 05:19: Message edited by: General Talashar ] |
Re: OT: Star Trek Nemesis
Well, I think its good to hear that at least the possibility of other movies is still hopeful. I just hope if they do continue on the Star Trek Saga, plan it right and basically forget about Voyager at least. Their best bet would be to relate any future movies to DS9 and TNG. I guess we will have to wait and see, but another movie probably will not happen for at least a few years. Wasn't Inserection released in 1998?
Hey gregebowman, About your ST2 question, I do agree, that is sort of a problem about the young people. The only theory I could think of is maybe that the entire crew of the sleeper ship were Genetically enhanced by age too. Maybe they could live longer than normal humans. I know, sounds like a Trekkie theory to explain another inconsistancy, but I have no clue what other theory explains the young followers of Kahn. P.S. I could be wrong about this, but I heard that in ST2, their was an entire chapter of how Kahns crew took over the Reliant. I heard it was a lot of hand to hand combat and killing. I guess they cut it from the final cut because it ran too long. On the other hand, maybe they cut it because it was rediculas because even the Reliant had a heavily armed security force. Unless they were caught comepletely by suprised, Genetic Enhancements wouldn't protect you from Phasers. [ September 06, 2002, 07:22: Message edited by: Magnum357 ] |
Re: OT: Star Trek Nemesis
You didn't actually get to see everyone in the TOS episode that was supposed to be from Khan's sleeper ship. So there 'might' have been some younger siblings or child prodegies (these genetically enhanced leaders probably wanted genetically enhanced successors). Yet this might also be 'filler'. Checkov was not a part of the Star Trek cast when Khan was originally in TOS, but for some reason Checkov and Khan knew eachother in Star Trek II.
These plot holes are technically small (you would really have to know your stuff to see the holes, as I had no problem with the movie until someone told me about all of the little details). When you compare it to the plot holes done recently, Star Trek II's are more explainable, as they only affected certain small bits of plot and diologue. The fact that some of Khan's followers were young, and Checkov knew Khan when he should not have does not really detract from Star Trek, as they are just minor points. What gets me about DS9 is that it does not appear to look planned. I kept on seeing changes done to improve Ratings (adding Worf when TNG ended), having Sisco shave his head and get that gotee to look tougher. To me, the big Dominion war looks like they could not think of a way to improve Ratings, and decided to go the war route. The first encounter with the Dominion was good, when that Galaxy Class ship was destroyed. However, soon after they got the Defiant (like the Whitestar from B5) and suddenly there were hundreds of starfleet, klingon and romulan spaceships blowing up hundreds of dominion and cardassian ships. Star Trek was not about hundreds of ships fighting hundreds more, battles were usually between, at most, a few dozen. The more battles, and the more ships involved, the less personal the fighting got. Previously, to defeat an enemy ship took cunning, time and effort (it was a big deal to come up against a single Romulan warbird). DS9 made destroying any ship common place, and really got boring as all of their battles appeared to be EXACTLY the same. B5's battles were interesting, as they dealt with different opponents, different tactics and such. The big battle between the Shadow, Vorlons and the Alliance was reminiscent of a typical DS9 batte, but this was B5's high-point in the war, and of course it must be big. Most other B5 battles were between handfulls of ships, where killing just one Shadow vessel was an amazing feat. DS9 and VOY just ruined my impressions on what Star Trek was. Star Trek had wars (all the way back to TOS), but these were not the all consuming plot driver that DS9 got into and VOY jumped into as well. Also, half of their plots were the very outdated 'it was just a dream and never happened' with all of the alternate-dimension (they stole this from TOS and beat it until it was as boring as the borg) and time travelling that was commonplace. |
Re: OT: Star Trek Nemesis
That's too bad you feel that way. I thought the Dominion War idea was excellent. It brought my attention back to the show. I've always wanted to see what large fleet actions would look like in Star Trek. Those Last few seasons really shined. Besides, I thought the show show was headed for a large war confrontation when it started.
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Well, I liked seeing the space battles. to me, it spiced up the show. I know Roddenberry wouldn't have liked them, but it's neat seeing ships blowing each other up from time to time. My only thought on this is that where are the Organians in the 24th century? Like they don't exist at that point in time, or are they having their own conflict with the Q or the Prophets that allows all of this conflict to go on?
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Re: OT: Star Trek Nemesis
Good question gregebowman,
I've wondered that myself. Maybe your right that Q, the Prophets, or something else is fighting against the Organains and they have their own problems right now. Hey, why couldn't Gods fight amongs themselves! I agree too about DS9. I thought it was a good idea for DS9 to introduced the Dominion War. Granted, Gene most likely would not have approved the idea, but like I said before, Wars have a huge impact on how society and culture are made in the world. Also, DS9 did approach issues that Star Trek wouldn't go into. Like for example the Vulcan killing people with a Gun and Dax had to think like a killer. Granted, sort of a copy of Silence of the Lambs, but I find it just rediculas that people in the Federation (or especially earth) don't kill each other anymore (to me, thats a Rodenberry Fantasy). And I really liked the Episode where Sisko sets up the Romulans to enter the War. Even in the star Trek Universe, their has to shades of Grey. The Battles where neat to me too. Ok, Major Tom has a point that ship versus ship combat gave Star Trek its own flare in TOS an the Movies, but when war occurs, its just not common for ships to spread out all over the place. In wars, I would a have to imagine Fleet versus Fleet battles are the norm. Ok, ships were getting destroyed fairly easily in the show, but its not like the battles seen showed everything. I'm sure the Space Battle Feilds where tens of thousands of Kiliometers wide and when several ships concentrate fire on one ship, chances are the one ship is going to get hammered easily. |
Re: OT: Star Trek Nemesis
The one thing that always got me about Trek, compared to other sci-fi, was that there were never any consequences, nothing had an effect. In TOS and TNG the crew faced invincible foes and world changing problems every episode and yet solved them in such a way that they always broke even, nothing in the universe actually changed.
Granted, this fit well with the utopian starfleet image, the enlightened olympians handing down judgement and meddling with mere mortals as they see fit, but is it human? I know that the idea was to show the best that humans could be, but it ignored the fact that not everyone will agree with you. This is why I liked DS9 so much. Here starfleet had to deal with equals who completely disagreed with them, instead of merely handling their inferiors (whether it was technologically, intellectually, or morally inferior). DS9 showed that even in utopia there are those who are willing to take what you hold dear. |
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[ June 16, 2003, 05:17: Message edited by: General Talashar ] |
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Good point Hadrian. Who is to say that Chekov wasn't doing some Academy inturnship work on the Enterprise? If I recall, Cadets are required to serve about a starship for a year or two before they graduate right? Maybe Chekov was on board when Kahn tried to take over but was in a non-senior officer role. He did have Security experience, maybe he started out with the Security detachment on board Enterprise. This would work out nice too because Kahn did try to forcably take over Enterprise. Maybe he was part of the Security Forces involved to defeat Kahn!
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Maybe Checkov was working the night shift that season. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
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What ever happened to Special Agent Gary Seven and his kind? His super high-tech superiors seem to have disappeared.
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Gary seven was supposed to be the first trek spinoff.
The networks felt a series like that wouldn't work - even with an xfiles twist... |
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?????????????
Sorry, but I don't get it. |
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As for large fleet actions in DS9, what about the fight at Wolf 359 in TNG? Granted, the battle itself wasn't really shown, but the aftermath certainly was. So TNG really set up the concept, DS9 just ran with it... |
Re: OT: Star Trek Nemesis
The battle at Wolf 359 had about 40 federation ships engage the Borg, and it was hinted at that this loss of vessels was a major blow to Starfleet. However, DS9 had hundreds of starships lost per engagement but starfleet did not collapse (plus making the borg threat look silly). I could believe that there were hundreds of vessels in Starfleet, as the universe is large, but wouldn't the stability of the Federation suffer with virtually every ship at one part of their territory? The attrition rate of the Federation, Klingons, Cardassians and Romulans was enourmous. It turned into a battle of numbers (i.e., "we lost 400 ships, but destroyed 1000 of theirs" as in DS9) instead of a battle of wits (i.e., "we were heavily damaged but their ship was crippled" as of TOS and TNG).
Wolf 359 was thought of as a major battle in Starfleet history, as all other battles hinted at in the series also revolved around only a handful of ships (the Cardassian war mentioned a few individual ship battles, Klingon/Romulan battles like Khitomer were between less then a dozen total vessels, even in the alternate future with the Enterprise C there was a battle between 5 ships at the end). During the Klingon Civil war, the task force set up under the command of Picard was of around 20-25 ships, all that could be spared to guard this very important region of space. TNG kept ship numbers at reasonable rates and still kept battles interesting, especially when it was down to the attrition of 1 vs. 1. Even B5 had limits on fleet size, as when the Alliance went to liberate Earth, the Earth Defense force had about 30 or so Destroyers guarding Mars, which is a pretty strong force in that 'universe'. DS9 would have been a lot better had they copied more of the good aspects of B5 instead of just the premise and go on weird and detracting tangents. [ September 10, 2002, 05:00: Message edited by: Major Tom ] |
Re: OT: Star Trek Nemesis
Not to get too OT with what's being talked about right now. But I used to hate B5. I would watch 5 minutes of the show and be bored to death so I'd turn it. But tonight for first time I watched B5 Third Space. It was on sci-fi channel. I actually enjoyed it. It was an interesting plot and storyline. The battle towards the end was great too. I still prefer ST over B5 anyday but I opened up a little bit to B5 just from watching that 2 hour movie.
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Re: OT: Star Trek Nemesis
Hey Ragnarok, ya Third Space was a pretty good movie. And it kinda hinted at Ancient B5 history too. Great Battle scences aswell. Glad to hear you liked the movie. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
To Major Tom, Ok, you do have a point about the Fleet sizes in DS9. From my understanding, Federation Territory (not to confuse explored territory which is about 10% of the Galaxy) only about 5% is Fed right? Even at 5% is a vast amount of Space. I suppose DS9 assumed that with such vast territory, Starfleets actual number of ships could range in the Thousands. But I do agree with you too that Wolf359 was stated that 40+ ships was a large chunk of Starfleets forces. It would have been better (and maybe graphically easier) if DS9 dealt with fleets of about 1/5 to 1/10 was stated. Like for example, in the DS9 episode "The Sacrifice of Angels", it was stated that the Federation fleet numbered in at 600 and the Dominions Fleet was about 1200 or 1300. Instead of these large numbers, they probably should have made it 60 Fed ships and and about 125 Dominion Vessels in the episode. That would at least keep it in Wolf359 perspective. Also, since the Federation is such a vast amount of space, and since during wars individual ships seem to cling together during wars, its very plausable that their could be a lot of fleets spread out along the front lines (say maybe 6+ fleets of 50 to 75 ships). On the other hand, when we hear 40 ships at Wolf359, maybe most of these ships where very advanced starships (like Ent-D era vessels) while in the episode "Sacrifice of Angels" the vast majority of ships where old vessels like tons of Miranda class vessels. After all, I recall reading that Starfleet had a huge number of Mirandas (and some other similar vessels) left over from the 23rd century. They may have even recommishened old, worn out vessels that where etheir in mothballs or obsolete. Hey, they had to do something, the Dominions capability to mass produce ships (even though they were not the most sturdies vessels out their), worried the Feds and had to get as many ships on the front lines as possible. But I do agree, it would have worked just as well if the writers just made the Fleets etheir 1/5th or 1/10th the number. |
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I read some interesting stuff onetime on this. It wasn't "canon" information but it sounded plausible. Some of it was from the Trek books that come out every month. They produce like 3 or four books every month by different authors. Some are good, some not so good. A lot of Trekkies don't even acknowledge them, but they can be a good source of "semi-canon" information.
Anyway, the stuff I read was on a website and I don't know if the guy made it up or read it somewhere what but he had this explanation that the Federation started a massive construction buildup after the first meeting between the Borg and the Enterprise. He said that while a lot of ships got bLasted at Wolf 359, a lot more were in the pipeline, and that that disaster caused an even bigger buildup. That basically the Federation was already producing ships at a wartime rate because of the constant threat of Borg invasion and that this all just happened to coincide with the war against the Dominion. Geoschmo |
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[ June 16, 2003, 05:14: Message edited by: General Talashar ] |
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Hadrian does bring up a point that at the beginning of WWII their where very few Carriers in the US arsnenal. By the End of the war, we had like over a hundred, but most of them where small "jeep carriers" (converted Freighters to launch fighters from) and were not exactly as capable as the larger Feet carriers.
I think sense the Founders don't really care how many of their Gem hedar soldiers die, I would think then that most of their small ships (maybe even their large ones too) where probaby pretty simple vessels to produce and my not be much of a match one on one. Like for example, its probably a good bet that a Galaxy Class starship could defeat a Dominion Crusier, but possible that the Dominion could produce 2 or 3 Crusiers much easier then the Feds could. |
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[ September 11, 2002, 02:17: Message edited by: gregebowman ] |
Re: OT: Star Trek Nemesis
I remember having this very same discussion over two years ago on a long since dead Star Trek fan site. How did the Federation arm so quickly after the loss at Wolf 359 to the 600 plus ships of each fleet in the Dominion War?
The official Star Trek answer is refurbished mothballed ships, rapid development and construction of new ships, and purchasing of ships built by other parties to Federation standards. Until the Borg attack the Federation was a research and exploration focused society with few ships for fighting. They had in fact had an on going conflict with the Cardassians as described in the 4th season episode called "The Wounded" where we were introduced to both the Cardassians and the Nebula class star ship. Following the Borg attack the Federation began a crash course in ship design and construction, and from that the Akira, Sovereign, steamrunner, intrepid, and defiant class ships were born. Think of it as well, like the beginnings of a SEIV game. At first you’re dedicated to exploration, until you meet a hostile enemy, then you begin researching new weapons, and ship designs. You then begin a rapid production of these ships in anticipation of war. That is essentially what happened in the Trek universe. |
Re: OT: Star Trek Nemesis
Massive bump. But for a good reason. The new trailer for Nemesis is out. It looks even better in this. Although what it looks like it they might trash the Enterprise. Which sucks. But none the less it looks like a awesome movie. Go HERE! {Link}
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I just saw the preview for the season premier of Enterprise next week, and I'll be damned if I didn't just see a Romulan ship. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Re: OT: Star Trek Nemesis
Yep. And it comes with a time bomb too.
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Of course as always, local listings may vary. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Geoschmo [ September 27, 2002, 12:02: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
Re: OT: Star Trek Nemesis
I couldn't believe it either when at the end of the trailer for next week's episode the Last word spoken said "Romulan". It's also interesting to note that at the season premiere, Archer found a book about the Romulan Star Empire and the future guy (forgot his name) told him not to read it. I'm really surprised that they're bringing the Romulans in this early. I would have imagined a 3rd of 4th season appearance. to me, this seems too soon. But, hey, I'm not running the show.
Speaking of this week's episode, I liked it. It was interesting to see how 3 stranded Vulcans could exist in the 1950's (wasn't Sputnik launched in 1959?). I would love for them to do a follow-up on the Vulcan who wanted to stay, especially if he ever ran into Gary Seven. And what really surprised me about the episode is that in the history of some 500+ episodes, they did not show the entire case. Only 3 cast members were shown. That's something that I liked in B5. If the storyline didn't include a character, he or she wasn't shown. I wish they'd do that more often. |
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Of course as always, local listings may vary. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Geoschmo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well... I don't pay too much attention to Enterprise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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So far it seems like Enterprise is starting to shake the wet-dream story habits of Voyager. I mean, hell, they covered thier 18-34 demographics tool with a fannel shirt!
Now if they can just fire that thief Braga.... He's the key suspect and aggressor in the downfall of trek. Not Berman, Berman is a guy that knows how to make money. Nothing more, nothing less. |
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Who the heck is Braga???? I have never heard of him.
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Brandon Braga is, was, one of the producers for Voyager, and is "the" producer for Enterprise.
He is a guy who Gene R. brought on board, and who knew nothing about Star Trek, and was at one point the most hated person in star trek, but who has redeemed himself and proven that he is the man with the plan for Trek. (According to hard-core trekkers, not my opinion.) (I think the guy takes himself to seriously, and is a little back stabbing arrogant weasel.) But he has brown nosed his way into one of the top spots at Paramount and there he will remain. He also wrote Mission Impossible II. Oh ya, you know 7 of 9? Well thats his girl friend. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ September 28, 2002, 08:18: Message edited by: Atrocities ] |
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Braga was hired as a writer and did okay on it. After Roddenerry died, Braga started to move up, cleaning out all the old timers and experianced writers.
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Re: OT: Star Trek Nemesis
I see. Why the heck do that? Good help is hard to find these days. Who exactly do you mean by old timers?
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