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kirbyef
"Marriage" is more a leagle institution where you have to go to a government institution to get a licence and to undo it you need to go through a court system. That will never happen to me again.
< Oh, did I mention I'm not bitter >
My love and I will "Hand Fast" which is basicaly where we promise to stay together:
"For a year and a day, and there after for as long as love shall Last"
I belive this "tradition" comes from Pagan / pre Christian Europe.

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Frankly, the easy availability of no-fault divorce ("Divorce! $99, 2 days") has contributed to the failure of marriages. When divorce was unavailable or socially unacceptable, 1) Couples were more careful about who they married, and 2) There was much more incentive to "make it work" once in marriage. Both partners had to continuously choose to love each other, since divorce just wasn't an option.

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When divorce was harder to get, a lot of people spent their lives unhappy. I don't know the numbers but, a lot made it work by enduring it pasively.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">FDR messed around, a lot, and Elanor had a female lover.

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WarDad,
I'm not sure what your point is.
I have no idea what the stats are on poly amoury and open marriages.
And, just hecause they are open, are they happy?

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">First, "no-fault divorce" doesn't necessarily mean $99 and 2 days. In some states, it means divorce can be granted after 6 months of separation instead of a full year, and still requires lawyers and court dates. And, obviously, at least an order of magnitude more money (more like $1000 - $5000, not $99). And I don't think couples were THAT much more careful about who they married, but I do agree that couples were more likely to stay together when there was greater social stigma against divorce. Just as most homosexuals stayed "in the closet" when there was greater social stigma against homosexuality. (of course, there's still quite a bit of social stigma associated with homosexuality, even if companies like Lockheed Martin are allowing employees to cover "life partners" on company-supported health insurance policies). None of that means people were any happier in the "good old days" when divorce was bad, teenage pregnancies were hidden, alternate lifestyles were even more hidden, and hate Groups were more active than they are today...

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Gryphin, Oh sure you had to bring up HAPPY. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

DirectorTsaarx, Hate Groups are still pretty active, today. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif As for the rest of your post, I agree. "WE" are getting less cought up with stigmata, than in the past. But, there is still a huge amount of it out there!

mlmbd http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I realize that not all no-fault divorce is fast or cheap. I was trying to communicate that there is a vast difference in how marriage was entered then and now. Then, it was "till death do us part" and was entered with that mindset. Now, many see marriage as a convenient arrangement that can be disposed of when it becomes inconvenient.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Anyone today who has a moral or religious conviction that marriage is permanent approaches marriage much more carefully, because divorce isn't an option. You make your bed, you lie in it. At the least, you'll spend more time finding out what a potential spouse is really like.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">First, those behaviors were much less common in past times. While social stigma could make people hide their behavior, it would also be a deterrent to adopting those behaviors. Second, quite apart from their rightness or wrongness, divorce and teenage pregnancy haven't exactly brought us happiness. Young girls lose their freedom (while young men get off pretty much free); parents and children (and step-parents and step-children and step-step-parents and step-step-children) are split up and doled out in complex "time-sharing" agreements that look like something by Enron. Not much happiness there.

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I can only respond with antidotal evidence. For the most part we seem to be proffering ideas that we do not have hard data to supplement.
I would say that we all wish we could have a permanent truly warm and loving relationship like Mr. and Mrs. Cleaver.
I certainly do. One of the areas I have been unable to find any statistical evidence on is the correlation between length of dating and length of relationship
I dated my 1st wife for 3 months before she moved in. The ensuing 5 years and my life now are the finest period of my life.
I dated my 2nd wife for over a year. I then lived in 10 plus years being manipulated, controlled, etc.. by a person would you never suspect capable of such a thing.
I dated my sweetheart for 1 month before she moved in. There is no doubt in my mind that my time with her will be as good as my life with my first wife.

[ December 10, 2002, 16:19: Message edited by: Gryphin ]

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then again, I also know people who got married mainly because their moral/religious advisors all but forced them into it (using financial and emotional leverage). And ended up with physically abusive spouses. At least one of them (my cousin) refused to get a divorce (because of those convictions about marriage being permanent) until she got hospitalized, at which point the state police stepped in & arrested the man - fortunately, that state had laws where the state could press charges of abuse without requiring the battered wife to make a statement (and, obviously, risk further abuse). Also fortunately, that prompted my cousin's church to recommend divorce, for the safety of my cousin & her daughter.

And, as Gryphin points out, how long is long enough to decide what a potential spouse is like? And how do you propose doing that without living together for at least some period of time? After all, that's when you really figure out what someone is like. But most people who have religious convictions against divorce also have religious convictions against living together.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think there are many cases where divorce has ended some rather unhappy marriages. Teenage pregnancy in and of itself hasn't brought happiness, but the fact that the person isn't completely ostracized from the community for it reduces the unhappiness. "Time-sharing" children isn't happy, but neither is growing up in a household where the parents fight constantly, to the point where they have trouble expressing love for their children. Or worse, grow to resent those children as a root cause for keeping the marriage together. As for social stigma as a deterrent for preferring an "alternate lifestyle", that's just wrong. The social stigma leads to hiding the person's true nature, causing no end of psychological problems.

Oh - mlmbd - I agree hate Groups are still around; that's why I said they were "more active" in the past. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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OK! To all posting. I think we can ALL agree that, MEN and WOMEN have relationships! OK, I said it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Sorry, I was just reading through all the Posts. All the differing thoughts and opinions (which by the way is one of the reasons I started this thread) and that thought just HIT me. The more I read the funnier that thought became. Until I just had to share it.

I do/did not mean to change the on-going discussion. So for my less than serious post, I APOLOGIZE to all of you! Hopefully you all can understand!

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

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mlmbd
I'm pretty sure your post was taken in the vein it was given. I like your wry sence of humor.

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Gryphin, I hope so. The ongoing discussion is very interesting. And yes, the sence of humor is a bit wry. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif But not always!

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

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mlmbd - thanks for the comic relief; I read this forum mainly to have fun, even if I do get caught up in some rather serious debates...

And, back on a serious note, related to the discussion of hate group activities: a dozen or so states have laws that make cross-burning illegal. However, the Supreme Court is deciding whether those laws are unconstitutional (or maybe they've already said that; the details are a little fuzzy right now). There's some wacky debate going on about whether cross-burning is intimidation, free speech, or something else.

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DirectorTsaarx, <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It was My pleasure! <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nothing at all wrong with having 'Fun' or 'Serious Debates'. I hope you continue to enjoy the Forum's, and this thread!

I don't agree with HATE MONGERS , in the least. I see no reason for cross burning! However, I do think they should be allowed to burn there cross's. As long as the cross is not in someone's front yard!

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

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I belive the court said something along the lines of, "they do it to cause terror". It stopped short of using the word "terrorism".

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The Court seemed pretty divided today until Clarence Thomas spoke. He said those suing to overturn the state laws were understating the purpose of cross burning, that it was not just to make a statment but contained an inherent threat of violence and was meant to intimidate, making it unprotected speech. That seemed to sway most of the Court.

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About Divorce:
Did we reach a consensus or did we agree to dissagree?

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I think we agreed that it's not ideal, and that some situations are happier afterward than before. It would be much nicer if it weren't necessary, or if there were more protections to hold using creeps liable for dumping a woman without support the minute they're done with them.

"Can't we all just get along?" (said in a laughably pitiful pleading voice) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Your summation sounds about right to me. I'm willing to "just get along" - but I'm glad for the chance to participate in a reasonably civilized debate http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

As for Gryphin's postulations on the origins of marriage, I'd add the idea that marriage provides a basis for paternal inheritance. In other words, it's generally obvious who a child's mother is - 9 months of pregnancy, not to mention the actual childbirth, are pretty good clues. Paternity was a little more difficult historically (although advances in DNA testing have made it easier, but not necessarily perfectly accurate either). Marriage, and the assumption of monogamy after marriage, leads to the conclusion that any children borne by the female partner in said marriage were indeed fathered by the male partner in said marriage. And, therefore, any titles, land, worldly possessions, etc. can then be inherited by those children with few (if any) social or legal obstructions. Of course, paternity only becomes important in patriarchal societies and/or in societies that do not provide for women during the childbearing years. After all, pregnancy and childraising require a great deal of energy...

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Krsqk, <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Your statement 'assumes' that creeps (us men) are 'always' responsible. No matter the circumstances. That is just not true! I don't have 'quantifiable data', for that statement. But I do know myself, and I am by no means a creep. You assume if I drop someone, I owe her something. You have not asked the conditions, for me dropping this women!

I am sure Gloria Steinem could find a place for you in NWO! But that, and Ms Gloria are an entirely different subject!

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Expect those protections to be abused by women. It seems that not only women can get screwed these days.

Guys, If you make good money... GET A VASCETOMY... It can be undone later.

I know of one Engineer who was used by a woman that wanted a child without the life time baggage of a man. She is getting more in child support than she could earn in a month. She has now ropped in a second sucker. If she snags a third one her income will be better than a college grad.

BTW, Both of these guys are such obnoxious creeps, it is hard to feel sorry for them.

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Um, in my case, I was the one dumped when she got done with me.
I don't think it is gender specific.
Beyond that a lot of people who tryed to consol me talked ahout the origens of marriage and its purpose.
< Again, I have no data to back this up. It is more of speculation >
The ideas that were talked about were along the lines of:
1) Marriage < in what ever form it takes / took > Is for the rearring of children. Once that is achieved it is no longer nessasary.
2) When a human life span was 40 to 60 years there was less chance you would grow apart
3) It has also been suggested that that there are so many more aspects to life that we continue to grow / change / develop in so many more ways. It makes sence that two people would "grow appart".
Food for thought.

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I meant no offense to anyone here who has been on the victim end of a bad marriage. Historically (and maybe stereotypically), it's been men who have abused the marriage relationship. It is ironic, with the increasing "empowerment" of women, that the traditionally male vices are becoming more common with women (for example, drinking/swearing, which used to be almost exclusively the domain of men). I agree that many women are looking for men to take advantage of, and they are "creeps" just as much as men can be.

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one of my coworkers recently told me about his exwife. she has been married 5 times since their divorce and he was #3 at the time. the thing i found humorous about his story was that all the ex-husbands have used the same lawyer when divorcing her as he knows the history.

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Krsqk
No offence taken. That is what discussion is for. An exchange of ideas, concepts, facts, and factoids. (in no particular order)

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Krsqk, no offense taken here either. And I meant no offense. The great up=swing in the women movement, has indeed realigned society. Whether this is good or bad is another topic altogether. My comments are from my observations. Not a life experience. Although I have had those as well. I don't think ALL women are evil. I know some that are, and some that are not!

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

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Concerning ladder theory:

http://sinfest.net/comics/sf20021007.gif

http://sinfest.net/comics/sf20021013.gif

http://sinfest.net/comics/sf20021017.gif

[ December 19, 2002, 08:50: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

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LOL

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OK, it's funny. But that doesn't change my mind about the ladder!

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

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Do Not Do This!!!.....

Wife: You give the dog to much attention.

Sap: Well, the dog comes to me.

Wife: You need to spend more time with me.

Poor Sap: Ok, Go Fetch

Wife: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

I REPEAT AGAIN!!! Do Not Try This at home.

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Wardad, LOL that is truely funny! LOL

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's not funny if you do it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's not funny if you do it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Rags - Has this happened to you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

KirbyEF

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's not funny if you do it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Rags - Has this happened to you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

KirbyEF</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not exactly. I'm not married for one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Secondly, I sort of did it to my girlfriend once. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Just playing around of course but she didn't like it that much. But I convinced her I was only kidding so she forgave me. Thank god! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

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rags, shame on you! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well she is usually a kidder herself but I guess not that time. Unless she was bluffing. Which is totally possible as she has done that many times before.
I do something and she acts like she is all mad and so I feel really bad about what I did and the whole time she was just bluffing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey guys. As Phil McGraw used to say on the Oprah Winfrey show...

"Men do not get it. And it is not that they almost get it, they just do not get it!"

In comparison to the females of our species, men are incredibly dumb.

Girls start experimenting about relationships almost as soon as they can walk. They play with dolls, tea sets and playout conflict situations.

What do young boys do? We play with toy cars & trucks and resolve conflicts by totalling a truck.

This carries through to adult life. Some girls continue to playout situations with real men.

And some men still play with (real) cars and trucks, resolve conflicts with each other with their fists and occasionally totalling a real truck.

We just do not "get" what is actually going on. Worse, we do not have a clue.

As a consequence of the different approaches in early childhood, women generally have much better verbal and relationship skills than men do. Some experts even believe that the advantage may be genetic as well.

In the past, women would use their superior interpersonal skills to keep the marriage together while the men would "bring the bacon home"

But now, women are no longer financially dependant on men for "the bacon". They can have their own well-paying job to support themselves and if worse comes to worse, there is always social welfare to fall back on. Also, a divorced woman no longer has the negative stigma of being a "divorcee" attached to her which was a major barrier to remarrying half a century ago. That's assuming she could get a divorce in the first place since it was very expensive and she had to have "grounds" for it.

So women no longer "need" a man for financial support, social standing or whatever.

They want something more...they want an interactive relationship!

Huh???? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

An interactive relationship? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif What is that?

And how do we have one, when we haven't developed the skills for an interactive relationship?

It is like playing SE4 against a baby brother who is only six years old.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I had a co-worker once who did something similar; he & his wife had a couple dogs, and were training them using "clickers". The idea is that, when the dog does something good, you provide a reward and "click" the "clicker". The dog (like in the famous Pavlov experiment) learns to associate the clicks with good behavior, and eventually the rewards are no longer necessary. Anyway, one day my friend's wife brought him a beer while he was training the dogs and he "clicked" at her. Fortunately for him, she took it in stride... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

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<font color=blue>BUMB</font>

<font color=purple>mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif </font>

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What? That's all the advice you have for us this week? BUMB????? I don't even know what that means... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

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It is a very Zen thing. He is suggesting that Life is a BUMB

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Hi! I came across this story about girlfriends:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

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LOL! That was great Kamog. I had tears in my eyes when I was reading that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

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Kamog, that was great! Whether to beta or not to beta, that is the question!

About <font color=blue>BUMP</font>; Gryphin is correct. It is a Zin thing. You have heard about the school of hard knocks. Well this is the shcool of light <font color=blue>BUMP</font>. Just a genlte nudge, will get your feet on the correct path! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

<font color=purple>mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif </font>

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Valentine Day Ryhmes to Avoid:

These are entries to a competition asking for a rhyme with the most romantic first line but least romantic second line:

Love may be beautiful, love may be bliss
but I only slept with you, because I was pissed

I thought that I could love no other
Until, that is, I met your brother

Roses are red, violets are blue,
sugar is sweet, and so are you.
But the roses are wilting, the violets are dead,
the sugar bowl's empty and so is your head.

Of loving beauty you float with grace
If only you could hide your face

Kind, intelligent, loving and hot
This describes everything you are not

I want to feel your sweet embrace
But don't take that paper bag off of your face

I love your smile, your face, and your eyes-
Damn, I'm good at telling lies!

My darling, my lover, my beautiful wife:
Marrying you screwed up my life

I see your face when I am dreaming
That's why I always wake up screaming

My love you take my breath away
What have you stepped in to smell this way

My feelings for you no words can tell
Except for maybe "go to hell"

What inspired this amorous rhyme?
Two parts vodka, one part lime

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Wardad, LOL. You slay me, Sir! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

<font color=purple>mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif </font>

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That was really good, Wardad!
Hmm, Valentine's Day is only a few weeks away... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

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Kamog, yeah. And let's hope no one tries any of those on their sweethearts! That would be 'BAD'. Funny, but bad.

<font color=purple>mlmbd http://www.shrapnelgames.com//ubb/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif </font>

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Funny Wardad.

The surprise ending verse spins a person around!