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Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Threshhold of 0 makes the cost to lower and raise equal to the base cost (Pct Cost). 0 seems to tell SE4 that there is no threshhold lowering or raising.
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Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Oh really? Ok. I'll see if I can wrap this up and post it this week. It's mostly done now, I think.
PvK |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
So, you don't mind if I steal most your hard work for the Art of War mod, do you? (credit will be given, of coarse...)
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Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
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Player A has taken +25% to defensiveness Player B has taken +25% to aggressiveness Player C has taken +0% in both. "base to hit" is the chance to hit before aggressiveness or defensiveness is applied Assume average of 100 damage (you could use any amount, this is just so we have numbers to look at) Format is: (player) (amount of damage he deals) (amount of damage he takes) (damage dealt / damage taken) Base to hit: 100% (point blank range, no other bonuses) - Player A vs Player C 100 75 1.33 - Player B vs Player C 100 100 1.00 Base to hit: 75% (point blank range, ecm3, sensors3, stealth and scattering armor) - Player A vs Player C 75 50 1.50 - Player B vs Player C 100 75 1.33 Base to hit 50% -Player A vs Player C 50 25 2.00 -Player B vs Player C 75 50 1.5 Base to hit 25% - Player A vs Player C 25 1 25.0 - Player B vs Player C 50 25 2.0 Base to hit 0% - Player A vs Player C 1 1 1.0 - Player B vs Player C 25 1 25.0 -spoon [ January 22, 2003, 00:57: Message edited by: spoon ] |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
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PvK |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
"Base to hit: 100% (point blank range, no other bonuses)
- Player A 100 75 1.33 - Player B 100 100 1.00" I'm not sure where you're getting this. Player B's Aggressiveness bonus would cancel out Player A's Defensiveness bonus. The result is no advantage either way. Phoenix-D |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
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- Ship A vs Ship C - Ship B vs Ship C I've edited the original post to clear up the confusion... [ January 22, 2003, 00:58: Message edited by: spoon ] |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Bumping this, since we're discussing balance mods these days, and I may make time to finish this.
Spoon's analysis looked at the value of maxing one of the combat traits against an enemy with lower combat ability. What happens if we do the same sort of analysis against a superior enemy? Player A has taken +25% to defensiveness Player B has taken +25% to aggressiveness Player C has taken +25% in both. (***CHANGE***) "base to hit" is the chance to hit before aggressiveness or defensiveness is applied. Assume average of 100 damage (you could use any amount, this is just so we have numbers to look at) Format is: (player) (amount of damage he deals) (amount of damage he takes) (damage dealt / damage taken) Base to hit: 100% (point blank range, no other bonuses) - Player A vs Player C 75 100 0.75 - Player B vs Player C 100 100 1.00 Base to hit: 75% (point blank range, ecm3, sensors3, stealth and scattering armor) - Player A vs Player C 50 75 0.67 - Player B vs Player C 75 100 0.75 Base to hit 50% - Player A vs Player C 25 50 0.50 - Player B vs Player C 50 75 0.67 Base to hit 25% - Player A vs Player C 1 25 0.04 - Player B vs Player C 25 50 0.50 Base to hit 0% - Player A vs Player C 1 1 1.00 - Player B vs Player C 1 25 0.04 So although Spoon showed Defensiveness is usually more valuable against inferior opponents, this converse shows that Aggressiveness is more valuable against superior opponents. It might be argued that it is more important to have better abilities against more dangerous opponents than against less dangerous ones, although with the balance mod in place, an opponent inferior in combat ability may be more threatening in other ways. Other considerations include the min and max cases, and the ability to compensate with technology. For example, racial tech offers the Talisman, which is slightly offset by the chance a human player will come kill a min-Aggressive Religious player before they can develop it. Other racial techs also offer to-hit bonuses in the +15 to +30 range, but these require expenses, and use of facilities or racial weapons which aren't as damaging as others. I don't think there are any racial defensive to-hit techs in the unmodded game (the system combat bonus mod only helps aggression). There are many min and max cases to consider. For example, max Def is almost always useful, while max Agg is only useful if you have a hard target. Min Agg can make direct-fire weapons almost useless against hard targets unless you have racial tech, while min Def can at least be endured using shields, armor, and killing your opponents. So, I think all told, since Def seems slightly better against inferiors, and Agg seems slightly better against superiors, I'm thinking the threshold costs might be tweaked as follows: Aggressiveness: =============== * Basic cost raised from 25 to 100. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 5. * Positive Threshold cost increased from 100 to 175. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 50. The pre-threshold increase to +5% costs 500 points. Maxing to +25% costs 4000 points. Dropping to -5% gains 500 points, and minimizing to -25% gains 1500 points. Because of the way to-hit modifiers stack in SE4, this seems to me a fairly accurate valuation. I would increase the Negative Threshold value a bit, except that Racial techologies such as Talisman or Event Predictor can compensate for minimized Aggressiveness. Defensiveness: =============== * Basic cost raised from 25 to 100. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 5. * Positive Threshold cost increased from 100 to 225. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 40. The pre-threshold increase to +5% costs 500 points. Maxing to +25% costs 5000 points. Dropping to -5% gains 500 points, and minimizing to -25% gains 1300 points. Because of the way to-hit modifiers stack in SE4, this seems to me a fairly accurate valuation. Defensiveness is of slightly more value than Aggressiveness at the high end (because enemies start to become nearly incapable of hitting), and less valuable at the low end (because enemies start to always hit, and shields and armor can also protect). |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
The Last entry regarding Maintenance Reduction implies that you're not using the corrective settings so that 1% maintenance reduction means you pay 1% less for ships.
Settings.txt: Base maintenance := 100 vehiclesize.txt: All ship get maintenance reduction of 75% (instead of 0%) All bases get maintenance reduction of 88% (instead of 50%) |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
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Since it seems crazy to spend 4500 on defensiveness, maybe you should lower the cap to 115%, or something. I dunno. |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
What value would lowering the max have?
I think it's neat to be able to theoretically spend 9500 points on combat abilities. More importantly, having a very high maximum expenditure gives more room for trade-offs in empire design, and less incentive to "go for the max". Moreover, the design goal for the mod was to correct balance simply by changing empire point costs, without changing what the things actually do. PvK |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
True. Again, although that's a great method for making maintenance more understandable, the idea of the mod was just to change the costs, not the effects.
Suddenly I'd have to mod vehiclesize.txt, which would mean it couldn't work seamlessly with (on top of) other mods. I guess there could be a variant though that would be for mods which use your maintenance correction - is there a set of mods that all use the same values? (Proportions uses this, but it already has the empire costs balanced, and I assume P&N does too). PvK Quote:
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Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Ok, I've done practically everything except for the Cultures, which need to be based on final values for everything else, so it's time for feedback! Object to values now, or be grumbled at in future! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
New to this Version are values for Political Savvy, and the Resource, Construction, Repair, and Maintenance aptitudes. Traits: ======= Advanced Power Conservation: ============================ * Cost lowered from 1000 to 500. This trait was rarely used, and while helpful, was not nearly as useful as other 1000-point traits. Mechanoids: =========== * Cost lowered from 1000 to 250. This trait was probably never used by a skilled player in a competitive game. I have played many unmodded games, and have never been attacked by a plague bomb, and the few natural and espionage plagues have been easily cured for little cost and little effect. Moreover, empires with this advantage are immediately identified as such, so only an unobservant player would ever try to use a plague attack on a Mechanoid player. 250 points seems about right for this minor advantage, and removes the "balance penalty" for roleplaying mechanoid races. Lucky: ====== * Cost lowered from 1000 to 250. The practical value of this varies depending on the game settings for random events. In many games, it will not be worth very much. In games with catastrophic events, at 250 points it becomes a kind of dare to risk not taking it. Since the effects vary, and if multiple empires take it, they counteract each other, and since frequently this has little effect, it seemed to make sense to reduce it to a minor cost, which removes the amount of "wasted points" for empires which take Lucky in games where it won't have much or any effect. Natural Merchants, Propulsion Experts, Ancient Race and Hardy Industrialists: ================================================== =========================== * All left at 1000 points. These all seem of roughly equivalent value to me. Ancient Race can be abused in some gamey ways, but gives no advantage beyond knowledge, so opponents can get more permanent advantages. Hardy Industrialists may be more or less efficient compared to construction aptitude, depending on how it's used, but it can be combined with it to reach the highest levels of construction rate, which some players use in their grand strategies. Advanced Storage Techniques: ============================ * Cost increased from 1000 to 2000 points. This one was pretty much universally accepted as the best 1000-point unmodded advantage, for its many effects and side-effects on facilities, starting strength, population, and cargo space. 2000 points seems about right to me compared to the other adjusted values. Emotionless: ============ * Cost reduced from 3000 to 1750 (net 2200 to net 1000 when minimizing Happiness). This is a very useful ability for lazy or new players, as well as for large empires that suffer damage that would otherwise make the entire empire riot and fall. Almost no competitive players were thinking twice about paying 2200 points for it, however. At 1000 net points, I'd say it's a good deal, and a valid choice for roleplayers. Racial Technologies: ==================== * Most remain at 1500 points. After the many discussions over the years, it seems to me that these are all fairly well balanced and rated at 1500 points. They can all seem too powerful or too expensive if one doesn't appreciate all of their abilities and counter-tactics. Deeply Religious: ================= * Cost increased to 2000 points. This is because the compensation for reducing Aggressiveness by a small amount has been greatly increased. Essentially, an average Religious player is expected to take a -5 in Aggressiveness, for a net cost of 1500 points. Attributes: =========== Physical Strength: ================== * Basic cost lowered from 25 to 3. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 10. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 5. * Negative Threshold cost lowered from 10 to 3. Minimizing troop strength to 50 now only provides 150 points. Maximizing troop strength to 150 now only costs 230 points. Intelligence: ============= * Basic cost increased from 25 to 50. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 10. * Positive threshold cost lowered from 100 to 75. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 40. This means "the cheap bonus" is +10 for 500 points, instead of +20 for 500 points. +20 costs 1250 points, and +50 would cost 3500. Playing a "dumb" race is now more viable - a 90% race gets 500 points, while a 50% race gets 2100. Cunning: ======== * Threshold lowered from 20 to 10. * Positive threshold cost lowered from 100 to 40. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 This means less can be gained by lowering cunning, and raising it is more expensive between 110% and 122%, but less expensive for a heavy spymaster race over 122%. Maximum 150% Cunning costs 1850 points. Minimum 50% gains 650 points. Part of the reason for the overall reduction is that defensive intelligence projects have multipliers to their effectiveness, so even a 50% Cunning empire can build up fairly effective defenses against a single antagonist without a lot of effort. The other reason is that concentrating in intelligence seemed very expensive for the amount of advantage gained. 150% Cunning in the unmodded game costs 3500 points, which is way more than it was worth compared to other advantages. Environmental Resistance: ========================= * Threshold lowered from 20 to 0. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 12. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 18. This follows Imperator Fyron's information that 5% in this is like 1% in Happiness and 1% in Reproduction. Threshold reduced to zero since this effect is divided by 5 so the actual range is -10 to +10, and zero threshold allows different rates for low-level increases versus decreases, which need to be balanced differently to avoid "free points" schemes with offsetting choices for Reproduction or Happiness. Since it requires raising both at once and thus offers less flexibility, I devalued it 2 per point (almost insignifigant). Reproduction: ============= * Basic cost raised from 25 to 50. Basic cost is raised because although population isn't a huge factor in unmodded games, a 1% change is about a 10% change relative to the base rate, and low rates can cut reproduction to 0% or a few % under bad circumstances, which becomes a relevant effect. The minimum setting will only earn 450 points, and is a meaningful disadvantage. Happiness: ========== * Threshold lowered from 20 to 0. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 40. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 15. Threshold lowered to zero in order to reduce reward for lowering happiness a small amount, since in the unmodded game a little unhappiness is easy to counter with troops. A lot of unhappiness can be a problem however, so the Negative Threshold cost was increased. Positive Threshold can be low, because for the most part, a high value gives diminishing benefits which can be accomplished by others using troops. Minimum setting of -50 gives 750 points (and would be hard to survive long enough to develop troops before riots took over). Maximum setting of +50 costs 2000 points. Aggressiveness: =============== * Basic cost raised from 25 to 100. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 5. * Positive Threshold cost increased from 100 to 175. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 50. The pre-threshold increase to +5% costs 500 points. Maxing to +25% costs 4000 points. Dropping to -5% gains 500 points, and minimizing to -25% gains 1500 points. Because of the way to-hit modifiers stack in SE4, this seems to me a fairly accurate valuation. I would increase the Negative Threshold value a bit, except that Racial techologies such as Talisman or Event Predictor can compensate for minimized Aggressiveness. Defensiveness: ============== * Basic cost raised from 25 to 100. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 5. * Positive Threshold cost increased from 100 to 225. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 40. The pre-threshold increase to +5% costs 500 points. Maxing to +25% costs 5000 points. Dropping to -5% gains 500 points, and minimizing to -25% gains 1300 points. Because of the way to-hit modifiers stack in SE4, this seems to me a fairly accurate valuation. Defensiveness is of slightly more value than Aggressiveness at the high end (because enemies start to become nearly incapable of hitting), and less valuable at the low end (because enemies start to always hit, and shields and armor can also protect). Political Savvy: ================ * Basic cost increased from 25 to 50. * Threshold unchanged at 20. * Positive Threshold cost unchanged at 100. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 20. This attribute's value depends on the number of trade partners, their Savvy, the player's goals, and game circumstances such as they player's relative size, and intelligence attacks which disrupt trade. One benchmark and not uncommon example is five established trade partners of equal size. In this case the player with average Savvy will double his income in resources, likely research, and potentially, intelligence. On the other hand, the player also gives the same to his trade partners (many or all of who may be eventual opponents), and without trade partners, this attribute has no value at all. An interesting side-effect is that an informed player may prefer low-Savvy trade partners to high-Savvy trade partners. The value thus cannot be absolutely evaluated, but is somewhere between the value of increasing all of the resource aptitudes and intelligence and cunning, and zero. I first estimated it by adding the values for Mining Aptitude to the values for Intelligence. Then I noticed the large values this generated, and considered that warlike races who don't plan to trade much, probably should not get much more than 1500 points. I also considered that powerful empires may choose not to trade in order to avoid sharing their success, so devaluing Savvy may tend to slightly reduce the runaway success of large empires. In almost any game however, it still seems more valuable than simple Mining Aptitude, so I compromised at double the value of Mining Aptitude. Lowering to 80% gains 1000 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 1600 points. Raising to 120% costs 1000 points and maximizing to 150 costs 4000 points. Mining Aptitude: ================ * Basic cost unchanged at 25. * Threshold unchanged at 20. * Positive Threshold cost reduced from 100 to 50. * Negative Threshold cost unchanged at 10. Everyone needs minerals. This seemed like a good baseline ability to remain unchanged, but the cost of maximizing seemed too high (3500 points for 150% minerals seemed excessive). Dropping to 80% gains 500 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 800 points. Raising to 120% costs 500 points and maximizing to 150 costs 2000 points. Farming Aptitude: ================= * Basic cost lowered from 25 to 22. * Threshold unchanged at 20. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 45. * Negative Threshold cost lowered from 10 to 8. Even Organic races need fewer organic resources than minerals, so these values are slightly less than Mining Aptitude. Dropping to 80% gains 440 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 680 points. Raising to 120% costs 440 points and maximizing to 150 costs 1790 points. Refining Aptitude: ================== * Basic cost lowered from 25 to 22. * Threshold unchanged at 20. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 45. * Negative Threshold cost lowered from 10 to 8. Radioactives are about as needed as organics in the unmodded game, taking racial and high-tech costs into account. Organic races will naturally prefer Farming Aptitude to Refining Aptitude, and Crystalline races the opposite, which is natural and not really a balance issue. Costs are identical. Construction Aptitude: ====================== * Basic cost increased from 25 to 50. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 10. * Positive Threshold cost unchanged at 100. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 40. Construction rate is one of the more important attributes. One can compare to the Hardy Industrialists trait, which gives +25% to planetary spaceyards only, for 1000 points. The limitation to planetary yards is important, because many more shipyards can be built in space. Realize too that the two can be combined for cumulative effect. Reducing to half would be quite a significant disadvantage. Dropping to 90% gains 500 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 2100 points. Raising to 110% costs 500 points and maximizing to 150 costs 4500 points. Repair Aptitude: ================ * Basic cost lowered from 25 to 10. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 1. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 10. * Negative Threshold cost unchanged at 10. Repair aptitude is slightly odd because it works on round numbers. A one-percent reduction will reduce rates by an entire component per turn, while a one-percent increase won't do anything until repair capacity reaches 100 components/sector/turn. It can also be combined with Cultural modifiers. I leave it as exercise for players to experiment and see where the specific relevant numbers are. Some players consider this attribute's value low because repair components are cheap, so just build more. That makes some sense, although there are some counter-arguments. Dropping to 1% reduces all sector rates by 1 component/turn and gains 10 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 500 points. Raising to 1% does about nothing but costs 10 points. Maximizing to 150% costs 500 points. Maintenance Aptitude: ===================== * Basic cost increased from 50 to 150. * Threshold lowered from 10 to 5. * Positive Threshold cost increased from 200 to 300. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 5 to 100. The counterintuitive way this works has not been changed, to maintain compatibility with the unmodded game, and with many mods. It is a very important attribute, paticularly at high levels. Lowering it was undervalued. No change ("100") gives maintenance costs of 25% of build cost per ship per turn. Dropping to "95" results in 30% maintenance costs and gains 750 points. Minimizing to "80" results in 45% maintenance costs and gains 2250 points. Raising to "105" results in 20% maintenance costs and costs 750 points. Maximizing to "120" results in 5% maintenance costs and costs 5250 points. PvK |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
very interesting thread...
have you played any pbw games with this yet? how have players reacted? so far, i think you're fairly reasonable about balancing things, good work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Not yet with these specific numbers. Once there are no objections I'll do the Cultures and post the files, and we can see if there are changes wanted to the system as a whole.
Proportions has similar balances to starting costs, though not quite the same. Of course, the whole rest of the mod emphasizes different styles of play and people tend to be trying it out more than minimaxing anyway. However, the empires I've seen tend to be much more diverse, with far fewer players using the standard exploits such as maxing combat abilities. There are some who do, or who max out other things like maintenance reduction, or get religious and lower Aggressiveness (but in Proportions PBW that's not a great idea since you will probably never achieve the ultimate Talisman). Anyway I think the result is much more use of the abilities which are uncommon in unmodded play, and players who try to max out the usual suspects find they have to pick and choose, and need to sacrifice a lot in other areas. PvK |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
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For example, in the standard game, by lowering stuff like Strength, Farming, Repair you could generally eek out another 3000 points with little effect on your empire. So in a 2000 point game, you in effect have 5000 points to spend on stuff, and taking a 1500 point Racial Trait is very doable. However, if you take away those 3000 freebies, the relative costs of many of the Traits might be too high. Just a thought... |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
I think PvK intended to make it more difficult, spoon.
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Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
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Personally I'd use these numbers: * Basic cost lowered from 25 to 5. * Threshold Stays at 20. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 5. * Negative Threshold lowered to 1. * Maximum value raised from 150 to 200 You'd see less 50%'s and maybe even some people who would put points into Repair (though not me - even if cost was lowered to 1 point, I would still drop it to 50%, as it just doesn't seem to have much impact on my play style). |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
One of the main goals of the mod is to make it so that there are no obvious choices. If there are "freebies" that give more points than they are worth, then that is exactly the kind of imbalance this mod corrects.
There are still thousands of points available by reducing attributes - but now, to get a lot of points back, you actually have to incur a meaningful disadvantage. Even in a 5000-point game, you shouldn't be able to "get all the good stuff" without taking some major disadvantages that can be exploited somehow. Otherwise, empire setup is unbalanced and limited to the "best" choices. The theory behind this mod is that by giving the "best" and "worst" empire traits balanced costs, most empire setups will be fairly even if played in a way that uses their advantages against enemy weaknesses. PvK |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Note that Adamant Mod uses most of the ideas from this, so they have been implemented somewhere. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
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Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
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Personally I'd use these numbers: * Basic cost lowered from 25 to 5. * Threshold Stays at 20. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 5. * Negative Threshold lowered to 1. * Maximum value raised from 150 to 200 You'd see less 50%'s and maybe even some people who would put points into Repair (though not me - even if cost was lowered to 1 point, I would still drop it to 50%, as it just doesn't seem to have much impact on my play style).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That would give: Repair 80% gives 100 points (mine was 200). Repair 50% gives 130 points (mine was 500). Repair 120% costs 100 points (mine was 200). Repair 150% costs 250 points (mine was 500). Repair 200% costs 500 points (mine didn't allow it, but would cost 1000 points). I like the idea of increasing maximum to 200%, but it is a feature change, not just a cost change. I think you're right that it may still be slightly overvalued as I posted, reviewing all the other balanced costs once more. However I think you undervalue it a bit yourself, as it's not your style. I think it is worthwhile to not reduce it. A lot can be done with planetary shipyards' "free" repair ability, but when this is minimized, this becomes much harder to do, requiring shipyard time and resources to build and maintain repair ships, and more of them. Perhaps the right value is about half-way in-between. Any other opinions on this? PvK |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Here is what Repair is like in Adamant:
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[ July 29, 2003, 20:08: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
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For example, in Standard with a 2000 point start, I really have 5000 points to spend. Taking Temporal Race, for example, would take up about 30% of my points available. With this mod, if I were to take the same characteristic reductions (and I see no reason why I wouldn't), I would have about 3500 points. Taking Temporal Tech now takes up about 42% of my points, and so is now much less tempting (or viable in some cases). To the point of "freebies", I think their is still a bounty to be had in Strength, Farming, and Repair reduction... |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
So Fryon, you have the same negative value I suggested for repair, but you have positive cost 2.5 times higher. 150% repair rate costs 1250 points, and 200% repair rate costs 2500.
Do you think it's worth that much? PvK |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
My goal was just to reduce the free points from dropping repair to 50. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I personally do not think that 200% repair is worth 500 points, but that doesn't mean I am going to make it that cheap. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
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Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Then why increase the cost of the -positive- value? Why not just drop the cost of the negative value?
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Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
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It's a good observation that the racial techs now take up more of the available points you have before taking serious disadvantages. However I don't think this is a case for reducing the costs of racial traits. If anything, they seem to be worth more. For example, the Temporal Event Predictor III gives a +30 to-hit modifier in systems where it is present (the defensive to-hit implications of "system combat bonus" don't actually work) - with the balanced point costs, that +30 to-hit would cost 4875 points if it could be used anywhere without researching and building an expensive facility. 1500 points starts to look like a real steal to me. Not to mention the Temporal Space Yards and all the rest. Seems to me the "freebies" you mention are addressed: Minimized Strength, Farming, and Repair all have a negative effect - not a real big one, but they no longer give a real big number of points, either. 150 points back for 50% strength - with the latest patch, defending troops aren't just shot off a planet, so having 50% strength will be an inconvenience. If you always glass alien planets, then go ahead an collect 150 points, but never capturing planets is worth more. 680 points for 50% farming may seem like a good deal for non-organic players, but colonizers and high-tech facs and componenets do require orgs, and later in the game, you can convert orgs to other resource types efficiently, so your high-value org planets and monolith collections will be penalized. 680 points seems tempting enough for the perceived early-game advantages, but I think 50% orgs will probably do at least that much harm in later stages of play. Repair at 50% causes some inconvenience and inefficiency, especially if you like to retrofit a lot, or your ships are expensive due to low resource aptitude or high maintenance costs (which will be more common with the Balance mod costs). Per my previous message I think the value may be somewhere between my 500 points and your 180 points. Yes you can do some good other things with the points if you minimize them. Seems to me like they're now about the right number of points so either choice is valid. I don't want to discourage any choice so much that players find their personal play styles aren't worth the points, unless the reason it was their style before was because it was such a great (unbalanced) bargain. PvK |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
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Characteristic Repair Aptitude Threshhold Pct Cost Pos := 15 Too much of a change? just right? [ July 29, 2003, 21:16: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
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PvK |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
I guess it just comes from difference in experience - I always drop Str, Farm, and Repair to 50%, and have never suffered much from it as far as I can tell. But then, there were better bargains to be had during point-buy, too.
I guess the only way to be sure about the pricing on Racial techs is to design a few empires and play a few games and see what the impact is. Going with your gut at this point is as good a plan as any. Quote:
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Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Hurry up and release this already so that I can use it for my next KOTH game! I hate KOTH clones. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
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Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
I decided to stick with my Last values for Repair Aptitude, adding a bit of reasoning to the text. Values may change once I get feedback after people try designing empires using the values.
Repair Aptitude: ================ * Basic cost lowered from 25 to 10. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 1. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 10. * Negative Threshold cost unchanged at 10. Repair aptitude is slightly odd because it works on round numbers. A one-percent reduction will reduce rates by an entire component per turn, while a one-percent increase won't do anything until repair capacity reaches 100 components/sector/turn. It can also be combined with Cultural modifiers. I leave it as exercise for players to experiment and see where the specific relevant numbers are. Some players consider this attribute's value low because repair components are cheap, so just build more. That makes some sense, although there are some counter-arguments. Some players may still choose to minimize it, but I don't want to lower its value any more, partly because gameplay is more interesting if players are using more repair ships and battle damage Lasts longer. Dropping to 1% reduces all sector rates by 1 component/turn and gains 10 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 500 points. Raising to 1% does about nothing but costs 10 points. Maximizing to 150% costs 500 points. PvK [ August 06, 2003, 19:07: Message edited by: PvK ] |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Ok, I finally did the Culture values. There were some harder decisions than I anticipated, because there are many ways to "use" a culture, depending on which values are at positive or negative threshold, etc.
See below (the cultures are at the bottom) and make comments, if any. (Yes, I will make it into an actual set of files shortly, but in case anyone has some good points about the cultures, I'd like to get those in before I do so.) ======= Traits: ======= Advanced Power Conservation: ============================ * Cost lowered from 1000 to 500. This trait was rarely used, and while helpful, was not nearly as useful as other 1000-point traits. Mechanoids: =========== * Cost lowered from 1000 to 250. This trait was probably never used by a skilled player in a competitive game. I have played many unmodded games, and have never been attacked by a plague bomb, and the few natural and espionage plagues have been easily cured for little cost and little effect. Moreover, empires with this advantage are immediately identified as such, so only an unobservant player would ever try to use a plague attack on a Mechanoid player. 250 points seems about right for this minor advantage, and removes the "balance penalty" for roleplaying mechanoid races. Lucky: ====== * Cost lowered from 1000 to 250. The practical value of this varies depending on the game settings for random events. In many games, it will not be worth very much. In games with catastrophic events, at 250 points it becomes a kind of dare to risk not taking it. Since the effects vary, and if multiple empires take it, they counteract each other, and since frequently this has little effect, it seemed to make sense to reduce it to a minor cost, which removes the amount of "wasted points" for empires which take Lucky in games where it won't have much or any effect. Natural Merchants, Propulsion Experts, Ancient Race and Hardy Industrialists: ================================================== =========================== * All left at 1000 points. These all seem of roughly equivalent value to me. Ancient Race can be abused in some gamey ways, but gives no advantage beyond knowledge, so opponents can get more permanent advantages. Hardy Industrialists may be more or less efficient compared to construction aptitude, depending on how it's used, but it can be combined with it to reach the highest levels of construction rate, which some players use in their grand strategies. Advanced Storage Techniques: ============================ * Cost increased from 1000 to 2000 points. This one was pretty much universally accepted as the best 1000-point unmodded advantage, for its many effects and side-effects on facilities, starting strength, population, and cargo space. 2000 points seems about right to me compared to the other adjusted values. Emotionless: ============ * Cost reduced from 3000 to 1750 (net 2200 to net 1000 when minimizing Happiness). This is a very useful ability for lazy or new players, as well as for large empires that suffer damage that would otherwise make the entire empire riot and fall. Almost no competitive players were thinking twice about paying 2200 points for it, however. At 1000 net points, I'd say it's a good deal, and a valid choice for roleplayers. Racial Technologies: ==================== * Most remain at 1500 points. After the many discussions over the years, it seems to me that these are all fairly well balanced and rated at 1500 points. They can all seem too powerful or too expensive if one doesn't appreciate all of their abilities and counter-tactics. Deeply Religious: ================= * Cost increased to 2000 points. This is because the compensation for reducing Aggressiveness by a small amount has been greatly increased. Essentially, an average Religious player is expected to take a -5 in Aggressiveness, for a net cost of 1500 points. =========== Attributes: =========== Physical Strength: ================== * Basic cost lowered from 25 to 3. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 10. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 5. * Negative Threshold cost lowered from 10 to 3. Minimizing troop strength to 50 now only provides 150 points. Maximizing troop strength to 150 now only costs 230 points. Intelligence: ============= * Basic cost increased from 25 to 50. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 10. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 75. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 40. This means "the cheap bonus" is +10 for 500 points, instead of +20 for 500 points. +20 costs 1250 points, and +50 would cost 3500. Playing a "dumb" race is now more viable - a 90% race gets 500 points, while a 50% race gets 2100. Cunning: ======== * Threshold lowered from 20 to 10. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 40. This means less can be gained by lowering cunning, and raising it is more expensive between 110% and 122%, but less expensive for a heavy spymaster race over 122%. Maximum 150% Cunning costs 1850 points. Minimum 50% gains 650 points. Part of the reason for the overall reduction is that defensive intelligence projects have multipliers to their effectiveness, so even a 50% Cunning empire can build up fairly effective defenses against a single antagonist without a lot of effort. The other reason is that concentrating in intelligence seemed very expensive for the amount of advantage gained. 150% Cunning in the unmodded game costs 3500 points, which is way more than it was worth compared to other advantages. Environmental Resistance: ========================= * Basic cost lowered from 25 to 12. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 1. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 12. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 18. This follows Imperator Fyron's information that 5% in this is like 1% in Happiness and 1% in Reproduction. Threshold reduced to one since this effect is divided by 5 so the actual range is -10 to +10, and minimal threshold allows different rates for low-level increases versus decreases, which need to be balanced differently to avoid "free points" schemes with offsetting choices for Reproduction or Happiness. Since it requires raising both at once and thus offers less flexibility, I devalued it 2 per point (almost insignifigant). Reproduction: ============= * Basic cost raised from 25 to 50. Basic cost is raised because although population isn't a huge factor in unmodded games, a 1% change is about a 10% change relative to the base rate, and low rates can cut reproduction to 0% or a few % under bad circumstances, which becomes a relevant effect. The minimum setting will only earn 450 points, and is a meaningful disadvantage. Happiness: ========== * Basic cost lowered from 25 to 15. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 1. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 40. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 15. Threshold lowered to one in order to reduce reward for lowering happiness a small amount, since in the unmodded game a little unhappiness is easy to counter with troops. A lot of unhappiness can be a problem however, so the Negative Threshold cost was increased. Positive Threshold can be low, because for the most part, a high value gives diminishing benefits which can be accomplished by others using troops. Minimum setting of -50 gives 750 points (and would be hard to survive long enough to develop troops before riots took over). Maximum setting of +50 costs 1975 points. Aggressiveness: =============== * Basic cost raised from 25 to 100. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 5. * Positive Threshold cost increased from 100 to 175. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 50. The pre-threshold increase to +5% costs 500 points. Maxing to +25% costs 4000 points. Dropping to -5% gains 500 points, and minimizing to -25% gains 1500 points. Because of the way to-hit modifiers stack in SE4, this seems to me a fairly accurate valuation. I would increase the Negative Threshold value a bit, except that Racial techologies such as Talisman or Event Predictor can compensate for minimized Aggressiveness. Defensiveness: ============== * Basic cost raised from 25 to 100. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 5. * Positive Threshold cost increased from 100 to 225. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 40. The pre-threshold increase to +5% costs 500 points. Maxing to +25% costs 5000 points. Dropping to -5% gains 500 points, and minimizing to -25% gains 1300 points. Because of the way to-hit modifiers stack in SE4, this seems to me a fairly accurate valuation. Defensiveness is of slightly more value than Aggressiveness at the high end (because enemies start to become nearly incapable of hitting), and less valuable at the low end (because enemies start to always hit, and shields and armor can also protect). Political Savvy: ================ * Basic cost increased from 25 to 50. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 20. This attribute's value depends on the number of trade partners, their Savvy, the player's goals, and game circumstances such as they player's relative size, and intelligence attacks which disrupt trade. One benchmark and not uncommon example is five established trade partners of equal size. In this case the player with average Savvy will double his income in resources, likely research, and potentially, intelligence. On the other hand, the player also gives the same to his trade partners (many or all of who may be eventual opponents), and without trade partners, this attribute has no value at all. An interesting side-effect is that an informed player may prefer low-Savvy trade partners to high-Savvy trade partners. The value thus cannot be absolutely evaluated, but is somewhere between the value of increasing all of the resource aptitudes and intelligence and cunning, and zero. I first estimated it by adding the values for Mining Aptitude to the values for Intelligence. Then I noticed the large values this generated, and considered that warlike races who don't plan to trade much, probably should not get much more than 1500 points. I also considered that powerful empires may choose not to trade in order to avoid sharing their success, so devaluing Savvy may tend to slightly reduce the runaway success of large empires. In almost any game however, it still seems more valuable than simple Mining Aptitude, so I compromised at double the value of Mining Aptitude. Lowering to 80% gains 1000 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 1600 points. Raising to 120% costs 1000 points and maximizing to 150 costs 4000 points. Mining Aptitude: ================ * Positive Threshold cost reduced from 100 to 50. Everyone needs minerals. This seemed like a good baseline ability to remain unchanged, but the cost of maximizing seemed too high (3500 points for 150% minerals seemed excessive). Dropping to 80% gains 500 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 800 points. Raising to 120% costs 500 points and maximizing to 150 costs 2000 points. Farming Aptitude: ================= * Basic cost lowered from 25 to 22. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 45. * Negative Threshold cost lowered from 10 to 8. Even Organic races need fewer organic resources than minerals, so these values are slightly less than Mining Aptitude. Dropping to 80% gains 440 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 680 points. Raising to 120% costs 440 points and maximizing to 150 costs 1790 points. Refining Aptitude: ================== * Basic cost lowered from 25 to 22. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 45. * Negative Threshold cost lowered from 10 to 8. Radioactives are about as needed as organics in the unmodded game, taking racial and high-tech costs into account. Organic races will naturally prefer Farming Aptitude to Refining Aptitude, and Crystalline races the opposite, which is natural and not really a balance issue. Costs are identical. Construction Aptitude: ====================== * Basic cost increased from 25 to 50. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 10. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 40. Construction rate is one of the more important attributes. One can compare to the Hardy Industrialists trait, which gives +25% to planetary spaceyards only, for 1000 points. The limitation to planetary yards is important, because many more shipyards can be built in space. Realize too that the two can be combined for cumulative effect. Reducing to half would be quite a significant disadvantage. Dropping to 90% gains 500 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 2100 points. Raising to 110% costs 500 points and maximizing to 150 costs 4500 points. Repair Aptitude: ================ * Basic cost lowered from 25 to 10. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 1. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 10. Repair aptitude is slightly odd because it works on round numbers. A one-percent reduction will reduce rates by an entire component per turn, while a one-percent increase won't do anything until repair capacity reaches 100 components/sector/turn. It can also be combined with Cultural modifiers. I leave it as exercise for players to experiment and see where the specific relevant numbers are. Some players consider this attribute's value low because repair components are cheap, so just build more. That makes some sense, although there are some counter-arguments. Some players may still choose to minimize it, but I don't want to lower its value any more, partly because gameplay is more interesting if players are using more repair ships and battle damage Lasts longer. Dropping to 1% reduces all sector rates by 1 component/turn and gains 10 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 500 points. Raising to 1% does about nothing but costs 10 points. Maximizing to 150% costs 500 points. Maintenance Aptitude: ===================== * Basic cost increased from 50 to 150. * Threshold lowered from 10 to 5. * Positive Threshold cost increased from 200 to 300. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 5 to 100. The counterintuitive way this works has not been changed, to maintain compatibility with the unmodded game, and with many mods. It is a very important attribute, paticularly at high levels. Lowering it was undervalued. No change ("100") gives maintenance costs of 25% of build cost per ship per turn. Dropping to "95" results in 30% maintenance costs and gains 750 points. Minimizing to "80" results in 45% maintenance costs and gains 2250 points. Raising to "105" results in 20% maintenance costs and costs 750 points. Maximizing to "120" results in 5% maintenance costs and costs 5250 points. ========= Cultures: ========= The Culture choices have all been balanced to be worth approximately net zero points. This is because the program never charges points for them, and one option is Neutral Culture, which has no effect. The primary positive effect of each culture has been left unmodified, and the negative effects adjusted to compensate for their value under the new system. In some cases the positive effects may be deemed to be worth more or less than they would cost as traits, because they may be used to increase the maximum possible value in a particular area where that is important (e.g. Berzerker), or because they limit the empire's options in important abilities. Neutral Culture: ================ No change. Berzerkers Culture: =================== Advantages unchanged. Disadvantages changed from -5 to -20 and from -2 to -10. Space and ground combat remain at +10, which would cost 3030 points as traits. Happiness remains at +5 for 200 points. Unmodded disadvantages would be worth 1090 points, so this would have been worth 1940 points, or 2940 if Aggressiveness and Defensiveness are +5 or higher. Since this Culture offers the highest possible space combat bonuses, it should be charged at the threshold rate. Essentially, the disadvantages should be quadrupled. Changing the -5's to -20's and the -2's to -10's EXACTLY comes to 0 points, so that seems perfect. Warriors Culture: ================= Advantages unchanged. Disadvantages changed from -2 to -10. -5 disadvatages added in Trade, SY Rate, and Maintenance. Space and ground combat remain at +5, which would cost 1015 points as traits, or 2025 at threshold levels. The unmodded disadvantages are only worth 150 points. Rather than raise the two disadvantages to -20 to -30 each, making them more severe than for Berserkers, I increased them by the same proportion (-2 becoming -10), and then added some different disadvantages at -5 to make up the remaining points, creating a different sort of trade-off compared to Berserkers. It seems fitting that Warriors would take longer to build their ships, and that they would be more expensive to maintain, because they spare no expense to improve combat abilities. This results in a net worth of 15-30 points, assuming Aggressiveness and Defensiveness are at +5 or more. Traders Culture: ================ Advantage unchanged. Disadvantages added -1 to Space Combat and -5 to Ground Combat. Trade remains at +5, which would cost 250 points, or 500 at threshold levels. Since the goal of a trader culture is to maximize its wealth and other trade values, I decided not to reduce Production, Research, Intelligence, or Maintenance. It also seems a natural choice for an empire with high Political Savvy, and it offers no bonuses to the most-desired areas of combat, maintenance, and construction, so it makes sense to balance against it at the non-threshold rate. Combat, particularly ground conquest, seemed appropriate weak areas for a Trader culture, so I gave it a -1 to Space combat (-200 points), and a -5 to ground combat (-15 points), for a net worth of 15 points (or 265 if Political Savvy is at threshold levels), but slightly limits the choice of maximizing combat abilities. Politicians Culture: ==================== Advantage unchanged. Disadvantage increased from -5 to -16 Production. Trade and Happiness remain at +5, and Space Combat at +2, which would cost 825 points, or 1500 at threshold levels. Of these, only Space Combat should be balanced at threshold levels, for a needed balance of about 1225. The unmodded Production -5 is worth 345 points. I increased this to -16 for 1200 points. This allows a number of interesting trade-offs for net savings, depending on the empire's other values. In general this culture is worth 25 points, but limits the choice of maximizing Production. Artisans Culture: ================= Advantage unchanged. Disadvantage added -7 to SY Rate. Happiness remains at +10, which would cost 375 points, or 400 at threshold levels. Maximizing Happiness is not a particularly great advantage, so this is balanced at slightly below non-threshold value. Reducing SY Rate seems appropriate; the artisans take longer to build things, because they take the time to apply the artful touches (or engage in their other "leisure and cultural pursuits" that keep them happy. So I added a -7 to SY Rate, which is worth 350 points. In general this culture is worth net 25 points, but limits the choice of maximizing SY Rate. Scientists Culture: =================== Advantage unchanged. Disadvantage added -4 to Production. Research remains at +5, which would cost 250 points, or 375 at threshold levels. It seems to me the most natural disadvantage would be Production, and that it should be balanced between but closer to the non-threshold value. Production -4 is generally worth 276 points (less if a resource aptitude is at negative threshold), giving this culture a net -26 point value for an average empire, but allowing high-Intelligence empires, and those who reduce resource aptitudes, to gain 99 or more net points. Workers Culture: ================ Advantage unchanged. Disadvantages added -1 to Research, Intelligence, Trade and Combat. Production remains at +5, which would cost 345 points, or 700 if all three resource aptitudes are at threshold levels. Since "industry is given precedence above all other tasks", it seems appropriate to reduce the unrelated values of Research, Intelligence, Trade and Combat by a small amount, to balance the non-threshold value. At -1 to each of these areas is worth 328 points, for a net 17 point value. Schemers Culture: ================= Advantage unchanged. Disadvantages added -2 to Trade and Happiness. Intelligence remains at +5, which would cost 125 points, or 200 at threshold levels. Slightly reduced trade and happiness seem appropriate for a suspicious and scheming culture, and a -2 to each balances to a net -5 point value, but with +70 or more savings for empires which concentrate in Cunning or reduce trade to threshold levels. Zealots Culture: ================ Advantages unchanged. Disadvantages changed from -5 to -20 and from -2 to -11. Space Combat remains at +5, and Ground Combat at +10, which would cost 1030 points, or 2050 at threshold levels. The unmodded disadvantages to Production, Research and Intelligence are generally worth 513 points. The Space Combat bonus should be balanced as for Warriors and Berzerkers, increasing the disadvantage value to 2009 points. This results in a net worth of 21-41 points, assuming Aggressiveness and Defensiveness are at +5 or more. Engineers Culture: ================== Advantages unchanged. Trade and Space Combat reduced from -5 to -3. Other disadvantages unchanged. Maintenance remains at +2, and SY Rate and Repair remain at +5, which would cost 600 points, or 1150 at threshold levels. The unmodded disadvantages would generally give 1315 points, or at least 570. Reducing the penalties to Trade and Space Combat from -5 to -3 reduces their value to 815, which seems about right. Essentially, it saves points for empires which are at positive threshold in Maintenance, or certain other combinations, and increases the maximum possible values for Construction and Repair, while lowering the maximum possible values for the disadvantages. The net value for an average empire is -215, but it is possible to save up to 845 points and reach the maximum construction rate of 180%. Merchants Culture: ================== Advantages unchanged. Research and Intelligence disadvantages increased from -2 to -8. Other disadvantages unchanged. Trade and Maintenance remain at +5, which would cost 1000 points, or 2000 at threshold levels. The unmodded disadvantages would generally give 565 points. Increasing Research and Intelligence reductions from -2 to -8 brings the net value to -15 points for an average empire. This culture allows savings for empires wishing to increase Maintenance and Trade abilities at the cost of more expense and reduced maximums in combat, Research and Intelligence. Renegades Culture: ================== Advantages and disadvantages unchanged. Trade and Happiness remain at +5, and Space Combat and Repair remain at +2, which would cost 845 points, or 1520 at threshold levels, 1250 if only Combat is at threshold. The unmodded disadvantages would generally give 1038 points, or 1788 with maintenance at positive threshold. This seems like a good candidate for leaving alone. The value to an average empire would be 193 points, but only if it accepts a relatively low Maintenance Aptitude. Xenophobes Culture: =================== Advantage unchanged. Happiness disadvantage removed. The +5 Intelligence advantage is worth 125 to 375 points, and increases the maximum possible value. The unmodded disadvantages would generally be worth 425 points. However, one disadvantage is their -5 to Trade, which if they are roleplaying properly, they shouldn't be using much. The Happiness penalty seems inappropriate to me, and contributes to the happiness problems of roleplayers using the appropriate "Neutral" happiness type. Removing the Happiness penalty makes this Culture's value 125 points to a player who roleplays by not trading (which has its own disadvantages), and -125 or more points to a player who chooses to be a trading xenophobe in order to get the Intelligence bonus. PvK |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
PVK excellent work, this Balance mod is awesome and data is well thought thru, I definitely plan to incorporate much of this into AI Campaigns next release, and as with all other files in AIC ((( PVK ))) will be stamped at the top.
Thank you for making this available. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif EDIT: I also copied your Last post and will package it as a text file so Players will receive YOUR notes and remarks for the most logical choices and options. [ September 03, 2003, 00:48: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
This DATA is close to what you have already in AIC, then again it would not hurt lowering AST in AIC a bit. If you make changes then you will have to redo all the AI General files http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
When do you plan on completing the next Version of AIC JLS 2004 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Quote:
Only criticism I have is that Schemers and Xenophobes are almost identical (though this is true in the stock game as well). |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Pete, we are considering adding Minesweeper support for the Human Player and you are the man to see when it comes to your Proportions Plate Armor
What are your thoughts, is it possible to attach Minesweeping abilities to Plate Armor, so as the mounts displacement scale increases so will the ships MS Ability? If so what would the best way to address this? Thanks, John [ September 06, 2003, 18:16: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Mounts can not affect the number of mines swept by a component. As scale mounts make a comp larger, it effectively sweeps fewer mines (sweeping per KT goes down).
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Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Let's start a new thread for that question, rather than diverting this one.
Sorry I haven't posted the actual mod yet. I'll give the similar cultures another think, and then try to get it finalized. PvK |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
any idea when you will post the files?
thanks |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Sorry guys - I've been working about 65 hours a week on other stuff, making it hard to remember to organize some time to do this. I'll make an effort to do it soon.
PvK |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Ok, I'm going to try to get this posted tonight. I figure if I say so now, I'll be more motivated to actually do so. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
PvK |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Quote:
Seems like it'd make sense and be more interesting if Schemers had at least a slightly higher intel bonus than Xenophobes, but with correspondingly more disadvantage. I'll make the Schemers +7 Intel, -2 Trade, -5 Happiness. PvK |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Ok, it's posted at this site.
================ Mod Description: ================ PvK Balance mod changes the point costs when an empire is created, to be more fairly balanced between the available choices. It makes no other changes to the basic game. The effect on empire design, and on the competitiveness of newly-designed empires, should be fairly large, however. Choices which were considered "the best" or "not worth the points" should now be more or less at the right value. This should mean that many more empire designs will be competitve with others, assuming their strengths are played well against opponents' weaknesses. The specific cost changes, and their reasoning, is described in detail below. Please let me know if you feel anything is overvalued or undervalued. ======= Traits: ======= Advanced Power Conservation: ============================ * Cost lowered from 1000 to 500. This trait was rarely used, and while helpful, was not nearly as useful as other 1000-point traits. Mechanoids: =========== * Cost lowered from 1000 to 250. This trait was probably never used by a skilled player in a competitive game. I have played many unmodded games, and have never been attacked by a plague bomb, and the few natural and espionage plagues have been easily cured for little cost and little effect. Moreover, empires with this advantage are immediately identified as such, so only an unobservant player would ever try to use a plague attack on a Mechanoid player. 250 points seems about right for this minor advantage, and removes the "balance penalty" for roleplaying mechanoid races. Lucky: ====== * Cost lowered from 1000 to 250. The practical value of this varies depending on the game settings for random events. In many games, it will not be worth very much. In games with catastrophic events, at 250 points it becomes a kind of dare to risk not taking it. Since the effects vary, and if multiple empires take it, they counteract each other, and since frequently this has little effect, it seemed to make sense to reduce it to a minor cost, which removes the amount of "wasted points" for empires which take Lucky in games where it won't have much or any effect. Natural Merchants, Propulsion Experts, Ancient Race and Hardy Industrialists: ================================================== =========================== * All left at 1000 points. These all seem of roughly equivalent value to me. Ancient Race can be abused in some gamey ways, but gives no advantage beyond knowledge, so opponents can get more permanent advantages. Hardy Industrialists may be more or less efficient compared to construction aptitude, depending on how it's used, but it can be combined with it to reach the highest levels of construction rate, which some players use in their grand strategies. Advanced Storage Techniques: ============================ * Cost increased from 1000 to 2000 points. This one was pretty much universally accepted as the best 1000-point unmodded advantage, for its many effects and side-effects on facilities, starting strength, population, and cargo space. 2000 points seems about right to me compared to the other adjusted values. Emotionless: ============ * Cost reduced from 3000 to 1750 (net 2200 to net 1000 when minimizing Happiness). This is a very useful ability for lazy or new players, as well as for large empires that suffer damage that would otherwise make the entire empire riot and fall. Almost no competitive players were thinking twice about paying 2200 points for it, however. At 1000 net points, I'd say it's a good deal, and a valid choice for roleplayers. Racial Technologies: ==================== * Most remain at 1500 points. After the many discussions over the years, it seems to me that these are all fairly well balanced and rated at 1500 points. They can all seem too powerful or too expensive if one doesn't appreciate all of their abilities and counter-tactics. Deeply Religious: ================= * Cost increased to 2000 points. This is because the compensation for reducing Aggressiveness by a small amount has been greatly increased. Essentially, an average Religious player is expected to take a -5 in Aggressiveness, for a net cost of 1500 points. =========== Attributes: =========== Physical Strength: ================== * Basic cost lowered from 25 to 3. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 10. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 5. * Negative Threshold cost lowered from 10 to 3. Minimizing troop strength to 50 now only provides 150 points. Maximizing troop strength to 150 now only costs 230 points. Intelligence: ============= * Basic cost increased from 25 to 50. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 10. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 75. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 40. This means "the cheap bonus" is +10 for 500 points, instead of +20 for 500 points. +20 costs 1250 points, and +50 would cost 3500. Playing a "dumb" race is now more viable - a 90% race gets 500 points, while a 50% race gets 2100. Cunning: ======== * Threshold lowered from 20 to 10. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 40. This means less can be gained by lowering cunning, and raising it is more expensive between 110% and 122%, but less expensive for a heavy spymaster race over 122%. Maximum 150% Cunning costs 1850 points. Minimum 50% gains 650 points. Part of the reason for the overall reduction is that defensive intelligence projects have multipliers to their effectiveness, so even a 50% Cunning empire can build up fairly effective defenses against a single antagonist without a lot of effort. The other reason is that concentrating in intelligence seemed very expensive for the amount of advantage gained. 150% Cunning in the unmodded game costs 3500 points, which is way more than it was worth compared to other advantages. Environmental Resistance: ========================= * Basic cost lowered from 25 to 12. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 1. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 12. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 18. This follows Imperator Fyron's information that 5% in this is like 1% in Happiness and 1% in Reproduction. Threshold reduced to one since this effect is divided by 5 so the actual range is -10 to +10, and minimal threshold allows different rates for low-level increases versus decreases, which need to be balanced differently to avoid "free points" schemes with offsetting choices for Reproduction or Happiness. Since it requires raising both at once and thus offers less flexibility, I devalued it 2 per point (almost insignifigant). Reproduction: ============= * Basic cost raised from 25 to 50. Basic cost is raised because although population isn't a huge factor in unmodded games, a 1% change is about a 10% change relative to the base rate, and low rates can cut reproduction to 0% or a few % under bad circumstances, which becomes a relevant effect. The minimum setting will only earn 450 points, and is a meaningful disadvantage. Happiness: ========== * Basic cost lowered from 25 to 15. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 1. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 40. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 15. Threshold lowered to one in order to reduce reward for lowering happiness a small amount, since in the unmodded game a little unhappiness is easy to counter with troops. A lot of unhappiness can be a problem however, so the Negative Threshold cost was increased. Positive Threshold can be low, because for the most part, a high value gives diminishing benefits which can be accomplished by others using troops. Minimum setting of -50 gives 750 points (and would be hard to survive long enough to develop troops before riots took over). Maximum setting of +50 costs 1975 points. Aggressiveness: =============== * Basic cost raised from 25 to 100. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 5. * Positive Threshold cost increased from 100 to 175. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 50. The pre-threshold increase to +5% costs 500 points. Maxing to +25% costs 4000 points. Dropping to -5% gains 500 points, and minimizing to -25% gains 1500 points. Because of the way to-hit modifiers stack in SE4, this seems to me a fairly accurate valuation. I would increase the Negative Threshold value a bit, except that Racial techologies such as Talisman or Event Predictor can compensate for minimized Aggressiveness. Defensiveness: ============== * Basic cost raised from 25 to 100. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 5. * Positive Threshold cost increased from 100 to 225. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 40. The pre-threshold increase to +5% costs 500 points. Maxing to +25% costs 5000 points. Dropping to -5% gains 500 points, and minimizing to -25% gains 1300 points. Because of the way to-hit modifiers stack in SE4, this seems to me a fairly accurate valuation. Defensiveness is of slightly more value than Aggressiveness at the high end (because enemies start to become nearly incapable of hitting), and less valuable at the low end (because enemies start to always hit, and shields and armor can also protect). Political Savvy: ================ * Basic cost increased from 25 to 50. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 20. This attribute's value depends on the number of trade partners, their Savvy, the player's goals, and game circumstances such as they player's relative size, and intelligence attacks which disrupt trade. One benchmark and not uncommon example is five established trade partners of equal size. In this case the player with average Savvy will double his income in resources, likely research, and potentially, intelligence. On the other hand, the player also gives the same to his trade partners (many or all of who may be eventual opponents), and without trade partners, this attribute has no value at all. An interesting side-effect is that an informed player may prefer low-Savvy trade partners to high-Savvy trade partners. The value thus cannot be absolutely evaluated, but is somewhere between the value of increasing all of the resource aptitudes and intelligence and cunning, and zero. I first estimated it by adding the values for Mining Aptitude to the values for Intelligence. Then I noticed the large values this generated, and considered that warlike races who don't plan to trade much, probably should not get much more than 1500 points. I also considered that powerful empires may choose not to trade in order to avoid sharing their success, so devaluing Savvy may tend to slightly reduce the runaway success of large empires. In almost any game however, it still seems more valuable than simple Mining Aptitude, so I compromised at double the value of Mining Aptitude. Lowering to 80% gains 1000 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 1600 points. Raising to 120% costs 1000 points and maximizing to 150 costs 4000 points. Mining Aptitude: ================ * Positive Threshold cost reduced from 100 to 50. Everyone needs minerals. This seemed like a good baseline ability to remain unchanged, but the cost of maximizing seemed too high (3500 points for 150% minerals seemed excessive). Dropping to 80% gains 500 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 800 points. Raising to 120% costs 500 points and maximizing to 150 costs 2000 points. Farming Aptitude: ================= * Basic cost lowered from 25 to 22. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 45. * Negative Threshold cost lowered from 10 to 8. Even Organic races need fewer organic resources than minerals, so these values are slightly less than Mining Aptitude. Dropping to 80% gains 440 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 680 points. Raising to 120% costs 440 points and maximizing to 150 costs 1790 points. Refining Aptitude: ================== * Basic cost lowered from 25 to 22. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 45. * Negative Threshold cost lowered from 10 to 8. Radioactives are about as needed as organics in the unmodded game, taking racial and high-tech costs into account. Organic races will naturally prefer Farming Aptitude to Refining Aptitude, and Crystalline races the opposite, which is natural and not really a balance issue. Costs are identical. Construction Aptitude: ====================== * Basic cost increased from 25 to 50. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 10. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 10 to 40. Construction rate is one of the more important attributes. One can compare to the Hardy Industrialists trait, which gives +25% to planetary spaceyards only, for 1000 points. The limitation to planetary yards is important, because many more shipyards can be built in space. Realize too that the two can be combined for cumulative effect. Reducing to half would be quite a significant disadvantage. Dropping to 90% gains 500 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 2100 points. Raising to 110% costs 500 points and maximizing to 150 costs 4500 points. Repair Aptitude: ================ * Basic cost lowered from 25 to 10. * Threshold lowered from 20 to 1. * Positive Threshold cost lowered from 100 to 10. Repair aptitude is slightly odd because it works on round numbers. A one- percent reduction will reduce rates by an entire component per turn, while a one-percent increase won't do anything until repair capacity reaches 100 components/sector/turn. It can also be combined with Cultural modifiers. I leave it as exercise for players to experiment and see where the specific relevant numbers are. Some players consider this attribute's value low because repair components are cheap, so just build more. That makes some sense, although there are some counter-arguments. Some players may still choose to minimize it, but I don't want to lower its value any more, partly because gameplay is more interesting if players are using more repair ships and battle damage Lasts longer. Dropping by 1% reduces all sector rates by 1 component/turn and gains 10 points. Minimizing to 50% gains 500 points. Raising to 1% does about nothing but costs 10 points. Maximizing to 150% costs 500 points. Maintenance Aptitude: ===================== * Basic cost increased from 50 to 150. * Threshold lowered from 10 to 5. * Positive Threshold cost increased from 200 to 300. * Negative Threshold cost increased from 5 to 100. The counterintuitive way this works has not been changed, to maintain compatibility with the unmodded game, and with many mods. It is a very important attribute, paticularly at high levels. Lowering it was undervalued. No change ("100") gives maintenance costs of 25% of build cost per ship per turn. Dropping to "95" results in 30% maintenance costs and gains 750 points. Minimizing to "80" results in 45% maintenance costs and gains 2250 points. Raising to "105" results in 20% maintenance costs and costs 750 points. Maximizing to "120" results in 5% maintenance costs and costs 5250 points. ========= Cultures: ========= The Culture choices have all been balanced to be worth approximately net zero points. This is because the program never charges points for them, and one option is Neutral Culture, which has no effect. The primary positive effect of each culture has been left unmodified, and the negative effects adjusted to compensate for their value under the new system. In some cases the positive effects may be deemed to be worth more or less than they would cost as traits, because they may be used to increase the maximum possible value in a particular area where that is important (e.g. Berzerker), or because they limit the empire's options in important abilities. Neutral Culture: ================ No change. Berzerkers Culture: =================== Advantages unchanged. Disadvantages changed from -5 to -20 and from -2 to -10. Space and ground combat remain at +10, which would cost 3030 points as traits. Happiness remains at +5 for 200 points. Unmodded disadvantages would be worth 1090 points, so this would have been worth 1940 points, or 2940 if Aggressiveness and Defensiveness are +5 or higher. Since this Culture offers the highest possible space combat bonuses, it should be charged at the threshold rate. Essentially, the disadvantages should be quadrupled. Changing the -5's to -20's and the -2's to -10's EXACTLY comes to 0 points, so that seems perfect. Warriors Culture: ================= Advantages unchanged. Disadvantages changed from -2 to -10. -5 disadvatages added in Trade, SY Rate, and Maintenance. Space and ground combat remain at +5, which would cost 1015 points as traits, or 2025 at threshold levels. The unmodded disadvantages are only worth 150 points. Rather than raise the two disadvantages to -20 to -30 each, making them more severe than for Berserkers, I increased them by the same proportion (-2 becoming -10), and then added some different disadvantages at -5 to make up the remaining points, creating a different sort of trade- off compared to Berserkers. It seems fitting that Warriors would take longer to build their ships, and that they would be more expensive to maintain, because they spare no expense to improve combat abilities. This results in a net worth of 15-30 points, assuming Aggressiveness and Defensiveness are at +5 or more. Traders Culture: ================ Advantage unchanged. Disadvantages added -1 to Space Combat and -5 to Ground Combat. Trade remains at +5, which would cost 250 points, or 500 at threshold levels. Since the goal of a trader culture is to maximize its wealth and other trade values, I decided not to reduce Production, Research, Intelligence, or Maintenance. It also seems a natural choice for an empire with high Political Savvy, and it offers no bonuses to the most-desired areas of combat, maintenance, and construction, so it makes sense to balance against it at the non-threshold rate. Combat, particularly ground conquest, seemed appropriate weak areas for a Trader culture, so I gave it a -1 to Space combat (-200 points), and a -5 to ground combat (-15 points), for a net worth of 15 points (or 265 if Political Savvy is at threshold levels), but slightly limits the choice of maximizing combat abilities. Politicians Culture: ==================== Advantage unchanged. Disadvantage increased from -5 to -16 Production. Trade and Happiness remain at +5, and Space Combat at +2, which would cost 825 points, or 1500 at threshold levels. Of these, only Space Combat should be balanced at threshold levels, for a needed balance of about 1225. The unmodded Production -5 is worth 345 points. I increased this to -16 for 1200 points. This allows a number of interesting trade-offs for net savings, depending on the empire's other values. In general this culture is worth 25 points, but limits the choice of maximizing Production. Artisans Culture: ================= Advantage unchanged. Disadvantage added -7 to SY Rate. Happiness remains at +10, which would cost 375 points, or 400 at threshold levels. Maximizing Happiness is not a particularly great advantage, so this is balanced at slightly below non-threshold value. Reducing SY Rate seems appropriate; the artisans take longer to build things, because they take the time to apply the artful touches (or engage in their other "leisure and cultural pursuits" that keep them happy. So I added a -7 to SY Rate, which is worth 350 points. In general this culture is worth net 25 points, but limits the choice of maximizing SY Rate. Scientists Culture: =================== Advantage unchanged. Disadvantage added -4 to Production. Research remains at +5, which would cost 250 points, or 375 at threshold levels. It seems to me the most natural disadvantage would be Production, and that it should be balanced between but closer to the non-threshold value. Production -4 is generally worth 276 points (less if a resource aptitude is at negative threshold), giving this culture a net -26 point value for an average empire, but allowing high-Intelligence empires, and those who reduce resource aptitudes, to gain 99 or more net points. Workers Culture: ================ Advantage unchanged. Disadvantages added -1 to Research, Intelligence, Trade and Combat. Production remains at +5, which would cost 345 points, or 700 if all three resource aptitudes are at threshold levels. Since "industry is given precedence above all other tasks", it seems appropriate to reduce the unrelated values of Research, Intelligence, Trade and Combat by a small amount, to balance the non-threshold value. At -1 to each of these areas is worth 328 points, for a net 17 point value. Schemers Culture: ================= Advantage increased from Intel +5 to Intel +7. Disadvantages added -2 to Trade and -5 to Happiness. Originally I left the advantage at +5, but spoon pointed out it was very similar to Xenophobes, so: Intelligence increases to +7, which would cost 175 points, or 280 at threshold levels. Slightly reduced trade and happiness seem appropriate for a suspicious and scheming culture, and -2/-5 balances to a net 0 point value, but with +105 or more savings for empires which concentrate in Cunning or reduce trade to threshold levels. Zealots Culture: ================ Advantages unchanged. Disadvantages changed from -5 to -20 and from -2 to -11. Space Combat remains at +5, and Ground Combat at +10, which would cost 1030 points, or 2050 at threshold levels. The unmodded disadvantages to Production, Research and Intelligence are generally worth 513 points. The Space Combat bonus should be balanced as for Warriors and Berzerkers, increasing the disadvantage value to 2009 points. This results in a net worth of 21-41 points, assuming Aggressiveness and Defensiveness are at +5 or more. Engineers Culture: ================== Advantages unchanged. Trade and Space Combat reduced from -5 to -3. Other disadvantages unchanged. Maintenance remains at +2, and SY Rate and Repair remain at +5, which would cost 600 points, or 1150 at threshold levels. The unmodded disadvantages would generally give 1315 points, or at least 570. Reducing the penalties to Trade and Space Combat from -5 to -3 reduces their value to 815, which seems about right. Essentially, it saves points for empires which are at positive threshold in Maintenance, or certain other combinations, and increases the maximum possible values for Construction and Repair, while lowering the maximum possible values for the disadvantages. The net value for an average empire is -215, but it is possible to save up to 845 points and reach the maximum construction rate of 180%. Merchants Culture: ================== Advantages unchanged. Research and Intelligence disadvantages increased from -2 to -8. Other disadvantages unchanged. Trade and Maintenance remain at +5, which would cost 1000 points, or 2000 at threshold levels. The unmodded disadvantages would generally give 565 points. Increasing Research and Intelligence reductions from -2 to -8 brings the net value to -15 points for an average empire. This culture allows savings for empires wishing to increase Maintenance and Trade abilities at the cost of more expense and reduced maximums in combat, Research and Intelligence. Renegades Culture: ================== Advantages and disadvantages unchanged. Trade and Happiness remain at +5, and Space Combat and Repair remain at +2, which would cost 845 points, or 1520 at threshold levels, 1250 if only Combat is at threshold. The unmodded disadvantages would generally give 1038 points, or 1788 with maintenance at positive threshold. This seems like a good candidate for leaving alone. The value to an average empire would be 193 points, but only if it accepts a relatively low Maintenance Aptitude. Xenophobes Culture: =================== Advantage unchanged. Happiness disadvantage removed. The +5 Intelligence advantage is worth 125 to 375 points, and increases the maximum possible value. The unmodded disadvantages would generally be worth 425 points. However, one disadvantage is their -5 to Trade, which if they are roleplaying properly, they shouldn't be using much. The Happiness penalty seems inappropriate to me, and contributes to the happiness problems of roleplayers using the appropriate "Neutral" happiness type. Removing the Happiness penalty makes this Culture's value 125 points to a player who roleplays by not trading (which has its own disadvantages), and -125 or more points to a player who chooses to be a trading xenophobe in order to get the Intelligence bonus. ============ Changes Log: ============ Version 1.0: This is the first released Version. ======================= Applying To Other Mods: ======================= To apply these balance changes to other mods, you should take the other mod as the foundation, and then apply the changes from this mod to the other mod's files. If the other mod makes important changes to the files this mod changes, then you'll need to cut and paste and maybe make some judgement calls. The files which this mod changes are as follows. (The other files included in this mod are just the stock 1.84 files, which are necessary for the mod to load properly.) * Settings.txt - only the section from "Characteristic Physical Strength Max Pct" to "Characteristic Maintenance Aptitude Threshhold Pct Cost Neg" is changed. * Cultures.txt - most of file changed. * RacialTraits.txt - most costs changed. The following mods are known to already incorporate some or all of this mod's changes, or to have made similar balance adjustments already, and so it would generally be redundant to apply this mod to them: Proportions AI Campaign Adamant Pirates and Nomads No doubt there are several others which also have balanced their starting costs. Also, in some mods, the modded abilities will affect the usefulness of various abilities. In general, check with the other mod's author for advice about combining mods. - PvK |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Keep in mind that many of these ideas have been in use for months in Adamant. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Great to see them finally solidified into actual data files! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
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Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Outstanding PVK.
Knowing that we can’t overwrite data files on AIC and most other MODs with out errors and destroying that mod. This is great for se4 gold and I plan playing with the new data this weekend. I like the high maintenance costs and this should keep down the work by reducing the total ships JLS you are going to incorporate PVKs balance mod into AIC v4.0? PVK you should include all the original data file as well so people can revert to the default se4 gold if they want to http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [ September 17, 2003, 13:38: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ] |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
GLV, the mod instructions are to install like any other mod, rather than stomping your default DATA directory. I believe there is a NULL mod posted somewhere with all the default data files.
I think that like Fryon, JLS was already considering these things for his most recent AIC work. However unless I'm mistaken, I think AIC already considered costs based on Proportions, which already did this sort of consideration (though a bit less thoroughly). And yes Fryon, we'll all be keeping in mind that you integrated much of this into Adamant Mod months ago. I'm sure it will give us all a warm feeling inside. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif PvK |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Quote:
Thanks PvK Great stuff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ September 18, 2003, 03:54: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
Quote:
[ September 18, 2003, 06:08: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
Re: PvK Balance Mod Version 1.1 posted (for SE4 Gold Version 1.91 - Patch 4)
This is excellent work, and exactly what I needed. Thank you very much.
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