Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Give me 1 example.

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Are you familiar with the term of "Post-Diction" as opouse to pre-diction?

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Give me 1 example.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Give me examples of supposedly accurate predictions the Bible made. You made the claim that it has made accurate predictions, yet you have not defended that at all. The burden of proof currently rests on you.

(I edited the Last post, so you may have missed the edit, by the way.)

[ February 26, 2003, 21:59: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">From the new testament: "There will not remain any stone of this temple"

Last time i check the Western Wall (wailing wall) was still there.

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Give me 1 example.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Give me examples of supposedly accurate predictions the Bible made. You made the claim that it has made accurate predictions, yet you have not defended that at all. The burden of proof currently rests on you.

(I edited the Last post, so you may have missed the edit, by the way.)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yup, I missed the edit.
And I don't just "blindly" accept what the Bible says. I didn't just read the Bible and say, "hey, this sounds good, I'm going to believe this." I had to prove to myself that what I was reading was correct. I did, and still do, much study and research in order to continue proving to myself that what I believe is in fact the truth.

I can give you lots of examples.
Just to list a couple:
When man believe that the world was flat, the Bible clearly stated it was round. (Not a issue of prediction but showing how if man would have looked into the Bible before thinking the world was flat, they would've realized it wasn't.)

It was foretold that Jerusalem would be destroyed in one night by the Babylon army, those that survived would be carried off into exile for 70 years and then return to their homeland to restore their city. This in fact did happen.

It was foretold that the Messiah (Jesus) would come through the line of David. If you look at Jesus' liniage you will find that he did indeed come through the line of David.

These are but a few examples to back up what I'm saying. I shift the burden of proof over to you.

Aloofi, I am very much aware of "Post-dition" and "pre-diction," and the Bible is not a book of post-diction. It was written well over 2000 years ago and has not been changed one bit.

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">From the new testament: "There will not remain any stone of this temple"

Last time i check the Western Wall (wailing wall) was still there.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you study that verse a bit more, you'll come to see that you are taking that verse a bit too literally.
You will also see that the meaning of the verse indicates that the city will be completely and utterly destroyed.

[ February 26, 2003, 22:09: Message edited by: Ragnarok ]

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nah, that guy didn't come from King David, since genealogy back them was kept only through males and if he is not the son of a man.......

None of the "predictions" of the new testament have ever ocurred. Not even one.

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nah, that guy didn't come from King David, since genealogy back them was kept only through males and if he is not the son of a man.......

None of the "predictions" of the new testament have ever ocurred. Not even one.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You are correct in saying he is not the son of man. God put the embryo(sp?) into his mother Mary. His adoptive father (Joseph) was through the line of David. Thus, he could be said to have come thorugh the line of King David.

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">By your saying that, is basically saying that proven secular history did not even happen. The fall of Babylon for example.

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you don't take thing literaly then anything can mean anything.
For example, did you know that the New Testament quotes from the Book of Enoch, a book known to have been written centuries after the events it describes and that is not part of the Old Testament as if it were part of it?.
Check the letter of John if you don't believe me.

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Now there is a good question...

He does have a talent for pushing buttons, doesn't he? This thread is only a few hours old and it's pages long already!

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, a lot of people did believe that the earth was round long before the Bible was ever written.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok. Now you are taken what is written in the Bible as proof of the Bible's validity. That is a huge logical fallacy.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Babylon fell into ruin milennia before the Bible was written. How could a Babylonian army sack a city after Babylon is gone?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sure it has. Books are always changed at least a little bit in translations, whether it is intentional or not.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So now you alter what the Bible means to fit in with the facts of what happened later. Very good evidence, if you ask me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif Randomly varying interpretations of the Bible can not be used to say whether it is right nor not.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well... in the Reality that the rest of us live in, that doesn't happen. Everyone has a human father and human mother. Some guy named Jesus most likely lived, but Joseph was either his biological father, or someone that Mary cheated with is his biological father. Immaculate conception is 100% impossible, and you are using flawed evidence to support flawed claims. Another logical fallacy.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No it doesn't. There is no basis of comparison between the two things.

[ February 26, 2003, 22:30: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you don't take thing literaly then anything can mean anything.
For example, did you know that the New Testament quotes from the Book of Enoch, a book known to have been written centuries after the events it describes and that is not part of the Old Testament as if it were part of it?.
Check the letter of John if you don't believe me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Anything and not mean anything. That is only if you look at one verse and one verse only to try and get the meaning of it. To understand the Bible you must look through the whole thing and derive how it is speaking. Some parts of the Bible are literal, others are sybolic, it all depends on the context it is in.

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The fall of Babylon was long before the New Testament.
I said: None of the predictions from the New Testament.

The Old Testament is too old to try to put it against history. Not good records back then.

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, some people did believe this. But mankind in general was what I was driving at.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My mistake. But did come true, did it not?
I gave other examples to make up for that.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Granted. But those changes that are unintentionally made are not huge changes that will change the Bibles meaning all together.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In the new testiment parts of it are still being fulfilled down to this day. The new testiment brought out that we would see multitudes of bad things happening in the Last days. These things are indeed happening. You may say that they have always happened. Granted they have, but not to the extent that they are right now.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is perfectly possible when you are dealing with the Almighty himself. He can do anything he pleases.

Like I said before, you believe what you believe, and likewise with me. I do not wish to argue/discuss this any further.

This has totally changed topic from where this thread started. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
But I have to take off for a while. I will be back later tonight.

[ February 26, 2003, 22:33: Message edited by: Ragnarok ]

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

Stop replying until I am done with my post.

edit: ok, now that post is done.

[ February 26, 2003, 22:30: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

Guys, do you want another mandy to light it up? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

http://mandyfanatic.com/MadTV16.jpg

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Thanks!
Doesn't really help but hey. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
As far as I'm concerned this topic is over. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif This thread can now go back to discussing aliens.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The people living around the people writing the Bible, sure. But, many ancient cultures believed the world was round. Pretty much all of the people in those cultures believed that. Mankind in general was torn 50/50 between the two beliefs.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Almost all (if not all) of that stuff was written after the fact. It was not prediction, it was postdiction.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No they don't. They are all flawed.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No they aren't. What are some examples of these things that are supposedly happening?

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Whoooeee, you have a talent for starting discussions. Have you ever considered getting a job as a talk show host? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I think it's barely possible that earth has been visited in the past by 'aliens' from other solar systems. Given the difficulty of travel between the stars, especially the time scale of it, it would most likely have been in an era when there weren't even 'proto' humans to witness it. The 'little green men' would most likely have seen dinosaurs and ferns when they visited. And it's not likely that any other 'visitors' will arrive in any historical time that we can imagine.

Of course, statistics are only attempts to model reality. What really happens is what really happens and that's why bookies and insurance adjusters often have to pay up. If we saw real live 'aliens' arrive I think it'd be a huge shock to the world. Yes, many people would panic, and many people would proclaim the 'new age' of enlightened life in the galactic community. Which reaction was justified would depend on the actual character of the aliens, of course. But the actual long-term effect on our civilization would probably be more like the effect that 'discovery' has had on the various isolated primitive tribes that we've heard about in the Last century or so. Have you ever noticed how that goes? They learn about the huge, complex, confusing world out here and their own world-view is bLasted to dust. They lose motivation and incentive in their old system, as their religion and 'economy' such as it is collapses. I think something similar would happen to the whole world if we were suddenly exposed to a new context including intelligent life beyond earth. Not just because various 'fundamentalists' would be confounded in their view of humans on earth as somehow 'special' either. I think it would rattle the materialists as much as the fundamentalists.

For this reason, I think the 'conspiracy theories' about government cover-up of alien contact is not so outlandish as some have assumed. IF there were in fact clear evidence of extra-terrestrial civilizations I think the govt. would do just that out of fear of our society collapsing. They too have seen what happened to various isolated cultures here on earth when they were 'discovered' by the larger world...

[ February 26, 2003, 22:40: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No. That doesn't lighten anything up.

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Thanks!
Doesn't really help but hey. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
As far as I'm concerned this topic is over. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif This thread can now go back to discussing aliens.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well that's nice. Just abandon the discussion so you can't have your views questioned, and can go on happily living with them, even though they could be wrong. That is probably worse than that other horribly horribly wrong thing that happened earlier. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I'm not abandoning the discussion. If you wish I will return later and discuss further. But I see no point in it as neither one of us are getting anywhere. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I've had my views questioned many times before and it has never stopped me from beliving them.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How can you prove it was postdiction?
Again, if you examine each book of the Bible, and really look for dates and so forth, you can come out with a date of when the book was started and completed.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So you're saying that Babylon never did fall to the assyrian army?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">2nd Timothy 3: 1-5 has some. Earthqacks, wars, famines, pestilences, nation rising against nation, etc.

Ok, now I'm really leaving, but if you wish, I will return tonight. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hhhmm. You also referred to a book (a physics book) as and i quote: "It was in my physics book Last year, which is generally accepted as the best physics text book out there. "
So if it's ok for you to refer to a book, why can't Ragnarok do it. Just because your book is a scientific book and his the bible doesn't mean that your book is more inclined to be true.
History is full of scientific books that years later (or centuries later) proved to be utter crap.
And it's always easy to question a book:
"why do you think that physics book is any evidence? Why is it better than other physics book? What makes it right, and everything else wrong?"
Don't get me wrong i love science and i do believe that what you are saying about the speed of light is true, it just don't agree with the way you are trying to show there is no evidence that the bible is true (or wrong for that matter).
Any book can be full of crap.

And i personally don't believe that there is a good or upper being. When we die, there's nothing. The big void. The big zero.

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

i forgot: as for aliens, i do believe they are out there but i don't think we will see one very soon. I once saw a program on that string theory you guys where talking about earlier and it was amazing. 10 dimensions. go figure. to much for my brain to handle. I have trouble with 3 dimensions after a few beers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How can you prove it is prediction? That is the claim on which you base your argument. You can not prove this, so your argument has no base.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That was not an example you gave. You said that the new testament said that Jerusalem would fall to Babylon. In fact, you said this:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There was nothing about Assyrians.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, so he said that some very common disasters that had happened in the past would happen again? That is like saying the sun will rise tomorrow. Well duh. It doesn't make it impressive at all, and does not mean that anything else in the Bible is true just because of that.

[ February 26, 2003, 23:40: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">First off, there is a huge difference between subjective truths and objective truths. Objective truths are verifiable outside of the context of the beliefs and reactions of a single person. Subjective truths are not, and completely depend on the beliefs of the person in question.

The formulae and such in my Physics book have valid mathematical proofs that show that they are correct. Examining the proofs for error turned up nothing, so the forumulae and then the theorems and statements based on those formulae have a valid basis. So, I can conclude that they are more or less accurate, and are objective instead of subjective. The Bible lacks anything like this. It is based off of subjective opinion used as fact and evidence, which simply does not work.

The physics book could be full of crap, but at least it is not based off of crap, it is based of of logical reasoning. Frankly, the basis of the Bible is (to use your words http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) crap. A book based off of flawed subjective truths can not be right. A book based off of valid objective reasoning (such as my physics book) at least has a valid basis. It is very unlikely that we are completley wrong about the basic principles on which the information in the physics book is founded. If we were, we would not have these nice computers to be used to post on this forum. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The information presented in my physics book was used to design them, and the internet, so it looks to me as if it is not crap. However, the Bible does lack these objective facts that the physics book is based off of. It's basis is entirely subjective. So, it can not be taken as true, because it's claims have no logical proof. You have to take a huge leap of faith to believe the Bible. You do not have to take such a leap to believe my physics book.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think it is supposed to be 11, actually. Of course, it is an extreme theory, and has little chance of ever being proven satisfactorily. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ February 26, 2003, 23:54: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't say that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">11? Wow. It looked promosing though. In that program they said that suddenly a lot of "unsolved" mysteries of science could be solved by it or at least when they recalculated stuff it now worked http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I have no idea what to expect from it but it was quite complicated. Interesting though.

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

Discussing god existence, the accuracy of the bible, and even all this fight religion vs science, I have my own point of view but I will not join that discussion, just say you have a religious opposition to the existence of aliens and step aside for those who like to see scientific proof before believing something.

Considering the numbers of stars out there, even if a small fraction is similar to our sun and even a small fraction of them is orbited by a planet similar to Earth, there still remain billions of Earth-like worlds only in the Milky Way.
It would be very selfish to believe that Earth is the only inhabited planet in the universe.
Almost sounds like Paulo III telling Copernicus that earth is the center of the universe and it doesn't move. You agree Earth orbits around the sun don't you?

And if they exist and have the same dreams about the stars we have, I think they'll eventually try to reach other worlds, the same way I believe we'll eventually do that ourselves.

I don’t know enough about relativistic physics to seriously discuss if you can move faster than light or not. Most respected scientists claim you can’t, and I’ll take their word.
So unless a warp points, warp-drives, hyperdrives or other bizarre sci-fi twist of physics is possible, travel between even close systems will take several centuries or even millennia.
But that is not proof that interstellar travel is impossible, it just indicates that it takes a long time.

If someone is arriving Earth now, they must have departed from their home planet long before our industrial era, and of course our first radio transmissions haven't reach there yet.

They can have advanced astronomy and be able to determine that Earth is a planet likely to hold life. There must be thousands of planet that fit the basic profile of our planet (assuming it’s similar to theirs and that's how they pinpointed Earth). It must have been a shot in the dark.

For such a long journey, their ship can be a small one carrying a handful of crewers in some sort of animated suspension.
Or it can be a large ship, carrying enough population to live several generations on board during the trip.
They will be cut out of their home, only a few thousand at best alone in a world inhabited by many billions.
Not enough for any war, at least if the objective is conquest even if they're armed with better weapons than ours, so they’ll surely try to be friendly towards the natives.

But of course all of this is a lie, aliens have been among us for a long time.
Not only they can travel several light years in days but they can also shift between dimensions.
Our governants have been replaced by alien replicants, and they are trying to make us fight each other to weaken us and facilitate their invasion plans....

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I didn't say that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You used "crap". I was just being consistent, instead of saying something like "unsound".

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

Andres:
Such travel is impractical- not impossible- and would take many generations of lives of the ship's crew (so their children's children many times over would reach earth, not the original crew), or advanced cryogenics to put them in stasis for several millennia. When they got back, their home would be nothing like what it was when they left. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

Just to clear up a few points before I do as Andres said and step aside for others in the conversation.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again, if you read the Bible, then look at secular history, you will see that the Bible does in fact predict future events, well actually, it's not the Bible that does this, God is. The Bible was inspired by God to be written. But we won't go into that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
But let me say this, since you say that I cannot prove my argument, then neither can you. You yourself have yet to prove that it is
postdiction. Therefore, your argument has no base either.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There was nothing about Assyrians.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Simple human mistake. The events were Jerusalem fell to Babylon, and then Babylon fell to Assyria. I simple forgot which example I used. But either one would be relevent as both were foretold years in advance.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, let me clearify what I was saying. Yes, these events took place in the past, no doubt about that, and it would be quite easy to say they will happen in the future, but what Timothy said was indicating that there would be more of these events taking place in the time of the end. If you do a bit of research you can find that there have been more earthquakes since 1914 up to now, then there was from the beginning of time. That is true. I forget the numbers but it's ALOT more then there used to be.

Ok, now I have said my peace and will do as Andres said, I have a religious opposition to the arguments you provided.
It was a enjoyable conversation to say the least. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Kind of odd when you consider that the Bible was written well after all of those historical events. None of this historical events were predicted at all. The authors of the Bible simply wrote it after the fact, and wrote it as if they were predicting the future.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My "argument" is that you are wrong. You have to prove yourself right for me to be wrong. Since you can't prove yourself right (as all of your evidence is wrong), my argument is true. You are wrong. There is little extra work going from showing that your arguments are wrong to saying that you are wrong.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Except that the Bible was written after those events took place. Nothing was predicted.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">First off, that is 100% wrong. There were a lot more earthquakes from 4 billion BC to 1914 than there have been since 1914 to today. We were not around to record them all, and not all of the earthquakes that happened when we were around were recorded, and so are not known about now. Nowadays, we can record every little earthquake that occurs, so you get the illusion that there are more earthquakes.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Basically what you are saying is "I have no real proof, but I know I am right, because I am, and the Bible says so." All of your arguments have been rather circular, and prove absolutely nothing. The biggest problem for you is that the Bible was written well after the real historical events took place, not before.

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

Fyron, all I'm going to say, AGAIN, is this:

Lack of proof is not proof of abscence.

Well, one other thing. If you are talking about God or a god-like being, science does not work; you can't prove or disprove. Science is based on observing the natural world an determing how it works. These beings, almost by definition, could -change- those rules at a whim. Just because it is impossible now and was impossible before doesn't mean they couldn't make it possible then.

re: the sound barrier vs speed of light
Oh? Why is that then.

Phoenix-D

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

Well pretty interesting discussion (although not much to do with Alien Contact http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) I'd be very interested in knowing exactly what passages of the bible supposedly predict future events and what those events are. If there is one thing I know about the bible it is than many passages are open to wildly different interpretations. (For example the passage that prohibts Jehovahs from accepting blood transfustions)

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And what says these events weren't predicted? And no, you saying it does not count. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But you are saying, "I am right because I say everything was postdicted." You have yet to back that up either. Therefore I am right in saying your arguments are not based either. For you to argue that I am wrong you must prove it as well, which you have failed to do thus far.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You are taking the points that I bring out and turning them into something I did not mean. It may be my fault for not being more clear but still.
Sure from 4Billion BC to 1914 there were alot. But I wasn't speaking of that time frame. I'm speaking of when mankind was put on the earth to 1914.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have given real proof in that the predictions that were written in the Bible were intold fulfilled in secular history. You have denied this by saying that these things were written after the fact but that is not the case.
You are providing no evidence yourself in order to prove me wrong, you are simply saying that I am wrong because you say so.
Therefore, since you have yet to truely prove one of my points wrong your arguments to do just that have failed and it is a draw. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edit: I am finally done with my part of the discussion. Neither one of us are getting anywhere with it so lets move on. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edit2: And also I believe the forum guildlines prohibited getting into Bible discussions on this forum so I will refrain from doing just that. If others wish to continue conversation feel free.

[ February 27, 2003, 02:52: Message edited by: Ragnarok ]

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

I agree it’s impractical, but it was also impractical to send a ship to the moon.
IMO that’s the most plausible way aliens could get here.
Yes anyone embarking on such a mission would be saying goodbye to his/her/other(what sex can aliens have) home planet forever. I see that even if their cryogenics were good enough to send them and take them back during a lifetime, so long after they departed the world they return to would be as alien for them as any other they can visit.
I’m sure that if we had the technology to build such a ship, we’d do it. And it wouldn’t be so difficult to find volunteers for a 1 way trip to another planet.
If aliens are anything like us in that regard, they’ll do that too.

About multiple dimensions, excuse me if this has nothing to do with what you were talking about:
The same way you cannot place a 2D figure on a 1D line, or a 3D body in a 2D plane, you cannot put a 4D hyperbody in 3d space.
There can be infinite 1D lines in a 2D plane, infinite 2D planes in a 3D space and infinite 3D spaces in a 4D hyperspace.
Mathematically there can be any number of dimensions.

Unfortunately as we're 3D beings our minds have been designed to think in 3D, it's impossible for us to imagine a 4th spatial dimension.
Now imagine that the 1D line is not straight or that the 2D plane is crumpled. For someone moving along the line, or someone moving in that plane, it is impossible to see his universe is crumpled, you need to step out of their universe to see that. And when you do that, you can see that the shortest way between two points in the 1D or 2D universe is a straight line that jumps out of the crumpled universe.
This is the original concept of hyperspace, assuming that our 3D space is crumpled within a 4D hyperspace, and that you can find a shortcut by moving in straight line outside the universe.
Can anyone remember who was the sci-fi author that invented this?

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And what says these events weren't predicted? And no, you saying it does not count. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wow you guys are just getting confusing now. I'm sure IF will have an answer but it would seem to me the fact (which you don't seem to be disputing) that the bible was written after these events would sort of mean it didn't predict them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

[ February 27, 2003, 04:02: Message edited by: DavidG ]

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

the post is long and i dont want to read the whole 6 pages, i'll just post my opinion on the original topic.

In my opinion there IS intelligent life out there, though i dont believe in super-intelligent aliens because evolution simply cannot go that fast (remember - they couldnt have evolved before galaxy was born) and it seems that human evolution was hastened on its own (if you think about it humans are highly unsuitable for life in wilderness without intelligence - no protection, no real claws or anything). Which means there is no way we're going to see them any soon. Aliens, if they are, are most likely more primitive than us or at the same level. By the time we meet them (if we do - most likely all we would get is a radio signal) i presume we would have a space force (you dont have to go FTL to get to mars, for example) and it would be a little more difficult. That is, of course, given that Earth and its population can survive that long (resources are running low... and governments are going crazy)

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well I don't thikg I agree with this. The galaxy is what... 4 billion years old? (or is that just the Earth?? ) Just think how much we have advanced in the Last oh say 200 years. Either way we have advanced a hell of a lot in a time space that on a cosmic scale is extremely small.

[ February 27, 2003, 04:53: Message edited by: DavidG ]

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well I dont thing I agree with this. The galaxy is what... 4 billion years old? (or is that just the Earth?? ) Just think how much we have advanced in the Last oh say 200 years. Either way we have advanced a hell of a lot in a time space that on a cosmic scale is extremely small.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Galaxy is something like 6-8 billion years old, and the Universe is between 12 and 20 billion years old. The Milky Way was around long before Sol and the Earth came about.

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Because IT WAS WRITTEN AFTER THOSE EVENTS TOOK PLACE. Maybe you will see that if I capitalize it.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sure I have. If you take a look at my previous sentence, that pretty much sums up how you are wrong.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ignoring the erroneous "put on the earth" bit... there were many more earthquakes from about 2 million BC (when the first ancestors of modern humans evolved) to 1914 than there have been from 1914 until the present day.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Umm... Babylon was long gone by the time the Bible was written. Basic elementary school history lessons will tell you that. Your real proof is not real at all, and certainly not proof. It is completely wrong. The New Testament was mostly written about the time that this Jesus guy was alive, which is millennia after Babylon fell. It is millennia after they sacked Jerusalem. Since you are a Christian, the New Testament is the most important part of the Bible to you, so it is the most relevant part. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Very basic knowledge of history is enough to know that your arguments are wrong. I guess not everyone learned stuff in school. Should I go get a 6th grade history book for you to prove these things?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Only because you ignore basic historical facts so that your beliefs remain valid. Noone knows exactly when past events occured, yet you seem to claim that you do, and you know when they happened. Does the Bible tell you when they happened?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Forum guidelines? I have not heard of those. I have also seen a number of discussions similar to this one on Shrapnel over the years that were not moderated away. There is no problem continuing this discussion.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No clue. I don't think Asimov used hyperspace, and Lucas didn't really create anything original. I don't read a lot of older sci-fi, so I couldn't tell you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is indeed a fact. It is a fact that Rags enjoys disregarding, as it directly contradicts his beliefs. Can't possibly look at facts that would do that, now can we?

To Rags:
Me saying it comes from going through school and becoming educated enough to have a basic understanding of when historical events took place. If I were a historian, I could probably cite you references that would dispel that myth that you believe about the Bible predicting actual events quite quickly.

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

i dont like getting into this topic but i'll just post my thoughts. dont go too far people, and keep it civil.

it depends what bible are you talking about.
the original bible (forgive me for not knowing the name you call it on English) which i studied in Israel, AFAIK, had been written in parts. Near a thirdth of the books were written as events happened, another thirdth was written after things happened and the Last one was written from stories and memories. That is what i remember, i might be wrong. I know at least one book though which is proven to have been written as events in it took place. I cant remember the name now and wouldnt be able to translate it into English anyways.

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

it is entirely plausible that aliens could/would be more advanced than us. we have made huge leaps in technology in the Last 50-100 years. but there is a period in our history called the dark ages in which knowledge was repressed, iirc, it Lasted about 400-500 years. if that either did not occur or did not Last as long then current technology could be even greater than it is now. so if an alien society was about to avoid it then they could/would be more advanced than us technologically.

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

makes me think and i agree with you desdinova. if aliens could have avoided the genetical will of people to spit into their neighbour's soup (quote from somewhere) - or put his head on lance, if its Dark Age - their advancements could have went much faster and in a way different way. (yea right)

Such species would make a lethal mistake would they ever contact humanity - their weaponry would be inferior and once WE could get there someone would initiate a crusade against them (sooner or later - im skeptical about that part of humans). If they came to here they were intilligent enough to realize this and simply left us alone http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif which returns us to the quote:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well... Christians almost always refer mostly to the New Testament when refering to the Bible, as that is the part with the fictional tales about Jesus and all. Either way... written as events took place is wholly different from written as predictions that came true.

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

Wow, this topic is getting way out of hand. First, there needs to be some clerity on how the bible was written, it was not written by one person (not even god as some christians claim) it is a collection of parts written by numerous authors. Jesus himself never actually wrote anything, it was all his disciples. Other parts of course were written by the jews long before christianity.

As for being "educated," that means nothing. Most people have some education, most just have it in different fields.

I once had a reall awakening in thought, that changed me forever, it started with one simple phrase, "China does not exist, it is a myth made up by the government to scare small children into eating their vegetables" consider:

Have you ever seen china? No? Then how do you know it exists. Pictures can be forged, people can lie, books are just things written on paper. Without seeing, you cannot know, and even then there is no way to validate reality, as it is all perception. We all choose our reality to live in, that cannot be denied by anyone, so choose to live in a good one, and don't !@*% with my reality....

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The only point of mentioning that word was to tell Rags where my information about the Bible being written after the events it supposedly predicted came from.

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

i say, topic's closed. back on original topic.

Re: OT: Alien Contact
 

I say, it will continue to be discussed as long as we want to.

I think I ticked a few people off. I got 4 more Ratings, and my average dropped by .05 points. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ February 27, 2003, 08:29: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]