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Re: OT) Best Turn Based Game: Fantasy or Space or War

KlausD:

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IMO its not only not hard its fully impossible. The spirit of tactical SE4 combat lies in that what you call "stupid quirk". What you dont like -the "disjointed movement and firing phases" are very important and nice to play (at least for turnbased fans) This kind of sequence is not a quirk, it a achievement of long standing gaming traditions. (computer and board)

No, it is not an achievement, it is an old limitation. I am a turn based fan; I do not like how se4 handles movement and firing phases.

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Then I dont understand why you are for a real time engine in SEV ship combat. If I hate something I am not for it.
BTW - RT games could be both strategic and tactical in scope. As TB games could be. The mode of play has nothing to do with the scale of game.

As I have said repeatedly, real time combat for se5 has no correlation with RTS games. There are no similarities at all.

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Maybe you have a different approach what "balanced" and " realistic" mean than I. Maybe you an explain when a game is for you realistic and balanced.

The "quirks" of turn-based combat are what makes it unbalanced and unrealistic.

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Secondly there are no problems at all with "all turn based combat systems". They are fine as they are. (at least if they are good designed)

No, they are not fine. The disjointedness of them causes absurd possibilities like a ship being able to move within range (and range of the enemy too), fire its weapons, then run away, with absolutely no possibility for the defender to do anything (assuming the attacker is faster, same range of weapons). Please tell me how situations like this are balanced or realistic. Real-time processing of orders eliminates these sorts of "quirks" of turn-based combat.

P-D:

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What Fyron's refering to as a "stupid quirk" is the way an -entire side- moves and fires at once. All your ships can be destroyed before they even do anything. Even turn-based systems can get rid of this, through initiative and not letting one side move all its units at once, and/or having phases of "Player 1 moves, Player 2 moves, both fire".

Even phased systems are imperfect. They can often create needlessly-complex rules systems, and still have many of the "quirks" of "normal" turn-based combat. What real-time combat is is a phased movement/firing system, but with continuous phases instead of segmented phases.

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I'd prefer a system like Combat Mission's myself; give orders, click go, watch them play out.

That is exactly what pausable real time combat is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

QuarianRex:

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This problem isn't really present in SEIV. You tend to start far enough away that niether player can get the "jump" on the other.

It has happened in every se4 combat I have ever seen.

Dogscoff:

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For combat, a real-time system might be made to work, but I'd prefer to see this done entirely by the AI with indirect human guidance, ie like strategic combat from se4 (although the strategic combat Ai=I would have to be improved considerably). Even with a "pause" mode in realtime tactical combat, you'd still miss opportunities if you weren't quick enough on the pause button, and the whole thing would be a horrifically slow mess with multiple humans anyway.

Most MP games of SE4 are done with strategic combat. Only hot-seat games can use tactical anyways. Real-time execution of strategic combat would not pose any problems. Hot-seat games already take a long time as it is. Real-time tactical combat would not be much slower, as long as you limit the number of pauses each player can make (so you don't get the combat paused every 2 seconds- which defeats the purpose of real-time anyways).

Re: OT) Best Turn Based Game: Fantasy or Space or War

"That is exactly what pausable real time combat is"

No Fyron, it's not. In combat mission you give your orders, hit go..and then wait for one minute. No matter what happens in that minute, there is -nothing- you can do. Pauseable real time you can adjust your orders at any time, combat mission only at the begining of each turn.

Phoenix-D

Re: OT) Best Turn Based Game: Fantasy or Space or War

Ok. So you get to pick how long you wait instead of it being forced at 1 minute intervals. This is bad how?

Re: OT) Best Turn Based Game: Fantasy or Space or War

I would also love to have a combat resolution system similar to Combat Mission's! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

If Aaron called it Gold Plus and charged money for it, I would gladly purchase it, in a heartbeat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT) Best Turn Based Game: Fantasy or Space or War

"Ok. So you get to pick how long you wait instead of it being forced at 1 minute intervals. This is bad how?"

Because it works better that way. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif More fun.. Minor benifits like PBEM working much better- i.e. at all, since both players don't have to be there. Even regular multiplayer tactical works better, since you don't have the other player pausing and unpausing combat all the time. It better represents combat, as well; units don't respond instantly.

Phoenix-D

Re: OT) Best Turn Based Game: Fantasy or Space or War

PBEM uses strategic combat, so there is no concern about both players having to be there for combat; it is run by the AI.

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since you don't have the other player pausing and unpausing combat all the time.

That is why you have a configurable limit on the number of pauses per combat (including a no limit option as default, of course). The game could easily be set up to function in either method. All it needs is a few toggleable options. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 26, 2003, 23:55: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT) Best Turn Based Game: Fantasy or Space or War

Before I got SE IV, I filled my free time with The Operational Art Of War.

G

Re: OT) Best Turn Based Game: Fantasy or Space or War

yeah. the link to that article, anyone? a responce?
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Re: OT) Best Turn Based Game: Fantasy or Space or War

"PBEM uses strategic combat, so there is no concern about both players having to be there for combat; it is run by the AI."

Which means there's no difference between the two systems. I was really thinking about tactical-style PBEM, which is irrelevent to SE4..

"That is why you have a configurable limit on the number of pauses per combat (including a no limit option as default, of course). The game could easily be set up to function in either method. All it needs is a few toggleable options."

Defeats the purpose of being pauseable in the first place.

[ March 28, 2003, 04:29: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

Re: OT) Best Turn Based Game: Fantasy or Space or War

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Defeats the purpose of being pauseable in the first place.

Well what would you do?

Re: OT) Best Turn Based Game: Fantasy or Space or War

"Well what would you do?"

Already told you. Combat mission style or initive based turn-based. Pure real time is fine if the AI is running both sides (as in Strategic mode)

Phoenix-D

Re: OT) Best Turn Based Game: Fantasy or Space or War

An initiative based turn-based combat system still has the same problems of se4's combat system.

Re: OT) Best Turn Based Game: Fantasy or Space or War

Well, as for the original intent of the topic, right now I'd pick Civilization II for Windows, Line in the Sand for DOS http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif , and likely when I get the full SEIV, that will take the lead.

Re: OT) Best Turn Based Game: Fantasy or Space or War

"An initiative based turn-based combat system still has the same problems of se4's combat system."

But reduced in scale to the point where it is almost irrelevent.

Phoenix-D

Re: OT) Best Turn Based Game: Fantasy or Space or War

What sort of initiative system would you propose?

Re: OT) Best Turn Based Game: Fantasy or Space or War

Fairly simple one.

At the begining, all ships make a check, based on whatever factors you like. Say its out of 100, all modifers equal (same ship design, whatever)

Lowest numbers move first. A tie for any particular ship, the defender goes first.

ex:
6 ships, 3 side A 3 side B. B defends.
A1 rolls 50
A2 rolls 25
A3 rolls 80

B1 rolls 80
B2 rolls 10
B3 rolls 30

So the order would go:
B2
A2
B3
A1
B1
A3

Another:
A1 rolls 85
A2 rolls 57
A3 rolls 87

B1 rolls 76
B2 rolls 47
B3 rolls 94

Order:
B2
A2
B1
A1
A3
B3

Re: OT) Best Turn Based Game: Fantasy or Space or War

Yeah Line in the Sand was very fun. heh with the action in the middle east right now it might perhaps be fun to install again.

As most I have played Civ 2 and like it. However it's the 400+ highly quility scenarios I have for Civ 2 that makes it so much much better than it otherwised would have been.

Went through my vast collection of games and discovered SSIs Definitive Wargame Collection... can't believed I forgot it but the game --- Sword of Aragon --- must be considered one of the best ever. Being a Strategic RPG Tactical combat quest it got it all. Highly recommended for anyone!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I am sure I have forgot a bunch of other great games... bound to happen when you are a big time fan and collector of Strategy and RPG games.

Re: OT) Best Turn Based Game: Fantasy or Space or War

P-D, that still has the unrealistic factor of some ships being able to fire at and destroy enemy ships before they can do anything. In most situations, both sides would be able to fire at about the same time. It also looks like it would get very messy when you have 100s of ships on each side. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT) Best Turn Based Game: Fantasy or Space or War

Time to revive another thread...

Have any of you played one of the games by Schwerpunkt ? I played one of their demos some time ago (OK, a long time ago) and kind of liked it, but I'm not sure if they're still in business. Their web site looks like it hasn't been updated in quite a while.

Re: OT) Best Turn Based Game: Fantasy or Space or War

I'm with Imperator Fyron on this. I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Medieval: Total War so far. Its strategic system may be weak, but it's real-time pausable tactical system is by far my favorite.