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you, and you get to pay some lawyers.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, you are right. It would be "contributing to the delinquency of minors." I had my first "public" drink at the age of 13. I was a big, strapping, muscular guy and looked somewhat older than 13. Our family had taken a trip to Fargo, North Dakota, USA. My parents, older sister and I went to a country bar (with sawdust on the floor), where I had a Hamm's draft. I didn't like beer then, but I did like the experience. Most 13 year olds want to be accepted as grown up and I was no exception. My dad was taking a bit of a risk. But even if he was charged and convicted, he would only have a criminal record in the US. At the time, a criminal record outside of Canada was only minimally pertinent to Canadian authorities in Canada.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey, I like places like that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
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[ April 13, 2003, 06:39: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ] |
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Too bad my moderator status blocks out my rank... otherwise I would have a pathetic rank compared to Fyron's!
I'll just let my user number (292) be less than Fyron's... so Ive been here longer I take it. And SpecOps is so much cooler than ruler of world. [ April 13, 2003, 09:41: Message edited by: Instar ] |
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[ April 13, 2003, 09:48: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
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While giving a minor (who is a son/daughter) a drink in the privacy of your home is technically "contributing to the delinquency of a minor", it is seldom enforced.
Technically, a glass of white wine during a meal falls within that definition. Common sense dictates that parents teach their children how to cope responsibly with life's attractions. Just saying "No!" doesn't teach a child much. It may even be counter-productive as it can increase the allure of alcohol. Much better to give the minor the experience in a controlled setting where the minor can experience the event in safety and comfort. Most cases hit the limelight when the cops have a "hard-on" for someone, the parents are in conflict and one complains to the cops or the parents have encouraged drinking to such an extent that the minor was either an alcoholic or fast becoming one. [ April 13, 2003, 14:44: Message edited by: tbontob ] |
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In sweden you are allowed to drink in restaurants and pubs when you are 18, but not at home or anywhere else until you are 20. Then you can drink wherever you want to that is not forbidden by local rules (i e you can't drink on public markets etc). The logic is that you then have two years to learn to drink socially under some kind of supervision by the employees at the pubs/restaurants. If people get too drunk and still get's served the pub/restaurant will loose their permit to serve alcoholic beverages. (I read Fyrons comment but still thought this was an interesting remark) Studies has shown that children who are allowed "social" drinking at dinners etc at home, tend to consume more alcohol then those who get's a simple "No". The early "controlled" allowence theory doesn't work. [ April 13, 2003, 16:34: Message edited by: Ruatha ] |
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You can have a glass of wine with your parents at dinner table.
I was not talking a bunch of 17 year olds hanging out with a bunch of 22 year olds... |
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Heh. I spend alot of early childhood in Spain and there it was not uncommon during special events (new years eve etc) to recieve a small amount of watered down wine.
When I moved to the United States I found the attitude quite different, especially among younger teenage peers etc. I have known people who go out specifically with the intent to "get wasted" and I just can't understand that mentality. I myself have never gotten drunk and it is not really an experience I would care to have based on others I have seen going through it. |
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In sweden you are allowed to drink in restaurants and pubs when you are 18, but not at home or anywhere else until you are 20. Then you can drink wherever you want to that is not forbidden by local rules (i e you can't drink on public markets etc). The logic is that you then have two years to learn to drink socially under some kind of supervision by the employees at the pubs/restaurants. If people get too drunk and still get's served the pub/restaurant will loose their permit to serve alcoholic beverages. (I read Fyrons comment but still thought this was an interesting remark) Studies has shown that children who are allowed "social" drinking at dinners etc at home, tend to consume more alcohol then those who get's a simple "No". The early "controlled" allowence theory doesn't work.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmm. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif There may be some misinterpretation here. Very young children should not be allowed to ingest alcohol for many reasons. The most obvious is that they are in a state of accelerated growth and excess alcohol is a poison. The studies are probably correct. But I think the conditions under which they are conducted are relevant. If the parents are excessively permissive, I can see the study giving the results it does. The opposite extreme is the rigid, domineering parent who says "no" with implied malice. Somewhere in between is the loving, concerned and involved parent who oversees the event. The latter parent is excercising the discipline most young children have not developed. As the child displays appropriate responsibility, there is less need for the overseeing parent. Some societies drink wine with their meals every day. I believe the French may be a good example. However acceptable it is to have alcohol with their meal, I don't feel it is appropriate for a child to have the same privilege. IMO, that would be excessive. |
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Well, for my part i belive that as a loving parent I'll say no so long as I can, atleast until they are 18.
No malice intended, but if alcohol was introduced today it would have been Banned. As it is now I use it on occasion, but it is a powerful and potentially dangerous drug. Many people point at countries where there is a more liberal view on alcohol, France as an example and says "Se, you can drink without getting drunk". But France has a high rate of alcohol induced diseases. So for my kids sake I'll try to keep them from alcohol as long as I can, and I'll make sure they know what I think about it. I won't "punish" them if they get home drunk sometime, but there will be a discussion following when they sober up. I'm sure they'll get drunk before it's legal to be so, but I hope to be able to minimize these occasions and perhaps give them enough self esteem to say no, and hopefully learn after the first time that it isn't so grand to be loaded. But somethings one propably has to learn by doing ones own mistakes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif [ April 14, 2003, 07:28: Message edited by: Ruatha ] |
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interesting how the topic drifted
i dont even know my post count.. why do you all care so much for it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Edit: 816 Posts since July 19, 2001. Is that not alot or what? [ April 14, 2003, 07:31: Message edited by: Taera ] |
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to add on the current topic, i am the "child" who had been introduced to alcohol a while ago. Being curious as I am i was introduced to root beer and perharps beer (dont remember) at age of about 8. Didnt remember much of it, neither liked, but the curiosity went away.
I didnt even know the legal drinking age in israel (i believe its 18). I always drink wine (usually white) with my parents on special occasions (like birthdays or new year) and been doing so for quite a long time. I also have been, being 14 and 15 and 16 yrs old, drinking beer with my friends. I can sa that my curiosity satisfied, i dont find it too much interesting. Yes it warms you up a little and opens you up a little too but thats it. A can or two with friends is fine, thats it. OTOH those same friends come from NO families. They LOVE drinking. talk about the theory. EDIT: typo [ April 14, 2003, 07:35: Message edited by: Taera ] |
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Tehre is always exceptions to the rules.
There are people who have been smoking extensively and drinking often that live to become odler than 100 years. that doesn't make it a healthy lifestyle. AS to your friends, yes, these things happens. I've had friends whose been members of organizations against alcohol but still drank alot. But if you look on it in a bigger population scale, "No" wins. Will look up the reference later, (Should be working now). ----------------------- EDIT: Ok, it seems the significance is weak, 4% more of the children with parents "allowing" some drinking, drinks more than those who says "No". (Røysamb E, Friestad C. Rusbruk og foreldrerelasjoner gjennom ungdomsårene. Bergen: HEMIL-Sentret, 1998) Will look further into this. More info later... [ April 14, 2003, 11:46: Message edited by: Ruatha ] |
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..a quote from another thread... (by me of course http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) and for some reason it seems to fit here too! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
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Re: Fyron\'s 5000th Post
David http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
mmmble dldfo dladaij alja=a;ld g al;oaudln da What do you think? Do you agree? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: Fyron\'s 5000th Post
Seems the opinions on children and alcohol are divided into a number of camps.
1) The "NO" parents where as Taera points out curiosity and rebellion may be a factor. 2) The gentle "No" parent for children underage such as Ruatha. 3) The gentle "No" parent for children under age but with an occasional relaxation under controlled conditions so they can have the experience under supervision and not look for it elsewhere. (My position) 4) The liberal parent. (No ones position, yet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) Taera, I know 1) is not your personal position. Just your observation how children may react to the "NO" parent. An observation which I happen to agree with. |
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my parents are liberal, i think. AFAIK i can get as drunk as i want, we all (me and them) know what will that do to me. I just wont do it because I dont want to do it. I never been said a NO, YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DRINK. I just dont http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
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Funny how things work out huh? My parents never really had alcohol around and even when they did my sister brothers and I never realy cared.
However, today my step sister and brother are big time drinkers. I found out that their grandfather is an alcoholic but there mother is not. Their real father is though. Not that any one cares, but this I think proves that it is possible that alcoholism runs in families. My blood brother and I will drink, neither he nor I care for it. My real sister is gone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif No, not by a drunk driver thank god, just some kid learning how to drive. I guess that makes it better. I think it does. |
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Back on topic for just a sec, Fyron has made 57 Posts to my 28. Fyron you are the Ruler of the World.
Don't let it go to your head or we will have to depose you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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even with perfect parents, it doesn't garentee perfect kids.
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There is no such thing as perfection. Everyone is flawed in more ways than they can realize.
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Yes, what one must remember is that being a "good enough parent" is really good enough!
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agree with ya all.
edit: hell, if being a good brother is hard enough, what'll being a good parent be like? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif [ April 15, 2003, 06:10: Message edited by: Taera ] |
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there is perfection, becuase there is imperfection. nothing can exist without it's opposite. find me something without an opposite:)
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What is the opposite of a clock?
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a clock is a temporary aragement of molecules.
anti-matter clock. |
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Anti-matter clock? That's the best you could come up with? That is not the opposite of a clock... Anti-matter isn't really an exact opposite to matter anyways.
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Not a perfect opposite but maybe a start to get the discussion going:
How about a stone, or a rock. Something that doesn't change for a long time, in opposite to a clock that changes frequently. This all depends on what timespan we use, but in a human perspective I think that a rock might be seen as a opposite to a clock. |
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opposite charges. goes boom if slammed together. now, if you made sure that every single particle in it was opposite ie whatever a quark with a reveresed charge on it is and so on.
rock still temporary collection of atoms and molucules. or maybe the opposite of matter is no matter. well, opposite is that which opposes, so anti-matter closer. or if you were refering to the function of a clock, that would be whatever function most opposes that of a clock. and i'm not going to get into the concept of a clock unless you meant that. to long. [ April 15, 2003, 09:54: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ] |
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Am I good or what? LOL Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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Ruatha's idea actually has some merit. Just saying "anti-matter clock" is a pretty poor attempt because it is the lazy way out. An anti-matter clock is not the opposite of a clock because it is still a clock, so is not truly opposite.
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That depends on how you define the clock. Are you defining it in terms of its physical makeup or in terms of its purpose. It seems that you are defining in terms of its purpose and function therefore anti-matter clock is a poor fit. And while I can't think of an oppossite off the top of my head that does not mean there isn't one.
In fact all of us could fail to think of an oppossite to a clock and that would still not justify the statement that there is no oppossite to a clock. In fact if a person wanted to they could go out and create the oppossite of a clock assuming one doesn't already exist. Based on the function and usage of a clock principle one would first have to come up with a definition of a clocks function. Here goes: A clock is that which is used to keep and measure amounts of time that have passed, or a device to tell at what point in a day one is currently at. Thus the oppossite of the clock would be: That which is used to lose track of measured amounts of time that have passed, or a device that fails to tell at what point in a day you are currently at. Thus I conclude that the oppossite of a clock is SE4. Or you could go for the super impossible oppossite definition: That which is not used to keep and unmeasure amounts of no time that have not passed, or a non-device to not tell at what point in a day one is currently not at. Maybe I should throw in a few more nots and nons? A non-day? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif What is my point? My point is that how you define the oppossite of a clock is based purely on how you define what is a clock. |
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A clock is all of those definitions that have assigned to it, plus others. It is not just one of them; that would be too simplistic to model reality.
SE4 keeps track of time, just in a different manner than a standard clock. So, it is not an opposite to a clock, because it possess some similar traits and functions. In fact, SE4 incorporates a clock! It can not be an opposite to something that is a part of itself. How about this: What is the opposite to a Sony DVD Player? And don't say an anti-matter Sony DVD Player, cause that is in no way an opposite. Matter having an opposite spin and charge from anti-matter does not make a particular matter and anti-matter object pair a pair of opposites. You're claim of everything having an opposite requires a much more black and white universe than the one we live in. Most things do not have anything that qualifies as an opposite. [ April 15, 2003, 20:33: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
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Urika! I just figured out what the opposite of a clock is... here's my logic...
A clock keeps track of time in the present. As in 'Now'... So the opposite of a clock is what keeps track of time in the 'past' and in the 'future'... Drumroll please.. I therefore conclude that the opposite of a clock is a 'Calendar' I'm so good it's almost scary! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Cheers! |
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David, both keep track of time in the same manner, so they are not really opposites. A Calendar keeps track of what time it is now just like a clock. It can track the current day, so you know what 3 days from now will be. That is the same as with a clock. It keeps track of the current hour, so you know what 3 hours from now will be.
[ April 15, 2003, 20:44: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
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Your arguments are interesting but there are some holes in them. The sum of the parts is more than the parts themselves. Because a thing is made up partly of the thing it is supposed to be the opposite of does not mean it cannot still be its opposite.
One could make a strong argument for a dead horse being the opposite of a living horse and yet both are still horses. And as to SE4 being or having a clock within it. I contend that that is just plain false. It makes use of a clock but is not itself a clock or have as one of its parts a clock. A clock may be necessary to use it as in the clock in the computer but simply making use of it does not make it a part of it. Let us look at a generally accepted definition of clock so that we can begin to possibly view what may or may not be the opposite of a clock. clock n. An instrument other than a watch for measuring or indicating time, especially a mechanical or electronic device having a numbered dial and moving hands or a digital display. A time clock. A source of regularly occurring pulses used to measure the passage of time, as in a computer. Any of various devices that indicate measurement, such as a speedometer or a taximeter. A biological clock. This being the case it is clear that not all definitions can be true in all cases of what is a clock. Would some people perhaps argue that a watch is in fact a clock despite this defintion? watch A small portable timepiece, especially one worn on the wrist or carried in the pocket. A chronometer on a ship. So if a clock is not a watch can a watch be a clock? If not then anything of the above is not a clock. So what is a chronometer? chro·nom·e·ter n. An exceptionally precise timepiece. So what is a timepiece? time·piece n. An instrument, such as a clock or watch, that measures, registers, or records time Thus we have that a clock is something cannot be a watch but that measure time. But a watch can be a chronometer on a ship and a chronometer can be a clock. So by simply placing any clock on ship it simply ceases to be a clock? With such variable and contradictory or almost contradictory definitions is it even possible to define what a clock is and thusly come to grips with what the opposite of a clock is? I would therefore define the problem as thus. Clock is to vague a term. It applies to to many. It is like saying find the opposite to planet. One might be able to find the opposite to a planet but almost certainly can't to planet. The same holds true for clock. I could find the opposite for a specific instance of a clock but not to the wide range of things that clock itself might represent. Clock is merely a concept and as such it's only opposite is anti-clock which is a broad group just as clock is. Why don't we have a unique desciptor for anti-clock then? Is it because it doesn't exist? Possibly. But more likely it is simply because we only name and make those things for which we have a use. A clock is usefull and has uses therefore an anti-clock must be useless and have no uses. Why would someone make a thing that must by its very nature is useless and has no uses? They wouldn't. That does not mean that such a thing does not exist it simply means that we have not made it ourselves and have no reason to define or know of it. |
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by defining opposite as that which opposes, and a clock as a temporary collection of matter, i reduced the question down to the oposite of matter. and i think my reversed matter would opose matter.
now, a device which renders a clock useless, would be the oposite of a clock. or, if you talk about oposite as 'across from' then a device which would cause you to keep track of time worse, would be the oposite of a clock. |
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My arguments have had far fewer holes in them than those arguing for an anti-clock, actually. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Your point about something useless being the opposite of something useful does not mean that all useful things actually have something that is the opposite of them. In fact, almost none of them do. Only a very small range of objects/ideas/concepts actually have an opposite. You have yet to prove that there is anything that could be the opposite of a clock (even with a narrower definition of what a clock is). Just saying that it is theoretically possible is not any sort of valid logical argument. Furthermore, by your definition, any useless object could be the opposite of any useful object. But, opposites are by definition unique. They are 180 degrees apart (and they have to be able to be compared to each other for any sort of opposite to be able to make sense). You can not have 2 objects that are opposite, and hten have a 3rd object that is opposite to one of them. Useless A is the opposite of Useful B. But, it would also be the opposite of Useful C, as useful is the opposite of useless (going along with your reasoning, ofc). So, are Useful B and Useful C the same thing? Probably not. You can not isolate one trait of an object and find something that appears opposite to that trait, and then say that that object is the opposite of the first object. Is a black horse the opposite of a white horse? Hardly. Black is the opposite color of white (one being no visible light, the other being all wavelengths of visibile light (which is a highly artificial definition that only makes sense with our extremely limited perception of reality)). But, the black horse and the white horse are still both horses. They are still the same objects, just with very slightly differing DNA, resulting in different pigmentation. So what would be an opposite to a black horse? Or a white horse, for that matter? Such an object would have to be the opposite of a horse itself. Is a pony (very small horse) the opposite of a Clydesdale (very big horse) just because they have opposing sizes? Not at all. |
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Even a stopped clock is still a clock. And a stopped clock is right twice a day. Of course a clock can be running but have the wrong time and never have the correct time. But even then it is still a clock. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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it's an anti-matter device that never lets any clock run and always gives incorrect time.
unless you want the oposite of a single clock, in which case it only has to never let that clock run. and for most of this, theoretical is as good as were gonna get. [ April 15, 2003, 22:05: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ] |
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what does that have to do with what i said?
i'll be playing the non-existant seIV now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ April 15, 2003, 22:29: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ] |
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All the arguments have so far had many holes in them and the fact that opposing arguments have holes in them does nothing to fill the holes up in either of them. Just because my sinking ship has more holes in it than your sinking ship (which it does not) does nothing to stop your ship from sinking. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I never once claimed that everything has an opposite. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Proving some is theoretically possible is in fact logically valid. Proving something theoretically possible does not prove it does exist but it shows that it MIGHT exist. I have in fact not shown that it can exist but that it might. But my entire point in my Posts has not been to prove that it does exist but to attempt to show a method in which one might be able to identify the opposite of clock should it exist. In point of fact opposites are not necessarily unique. A is the opposite of B C is the opposite of D E is both B and D and thus the opposite of both A and C. It is a matter of how you group things. A smaller group may be contained by a larger group. Just because it is the opposite of more than the smaller group does not make it any less the opposite of the smaller group. You can isolate all the traits of the thing and while the smaller grouping is not the opposite of the larger the larger meets all requirements for being the other. Thus you could have the opposite of grandfather clock and clock and the opposite of clock INCLUDES grandfather clock. My conclusions have been it is not even possible to identify the opposite of clock as the identification of clock itself is impossible. If you can't identify the components of the thing you need to identify the opposite of then you have no chance of ever identifing the opposite itself. Thus as things get more and more complex it gets harder and harder to define the thing and thus harder and harder to define an opposite. Thus the only things we have opposite for are indeed simple things. This does not however preclude the existence of the opposites themselves. It just means we have no way of identifing them and thus no way of proving or disproving their existence. Leaving us in limbo. |
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And to answer the question. Opposite my clock is my bed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
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Ok, so my logic was flawed and full of holes. I'm not Vulcan, but I'll give it another try...
You are trying to find out what is the 'opposite' of a clock, and by definition the 'opposite' of a clock cannot itself be a clock. Well, I am not a clock, and therefore must be it's opposite! So the answer to the question "What is the opposite of a clock?" is Me! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
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If you apply set notation and treat opposite as complement, then the opposite of a clock would be the set of (all objects union all non-objects) which are not in the set of (all clocks).
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David:
I am not trying to find the opposite of a clock because such a thing does not exist. I was saying that most everything that exists in reality has no opposite. The clock was just one example. Jack: Quote:
[ April 16, 2003, 00:08: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
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http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well not if you follow the laws of anti-logic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif |
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