Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This would result in a more intimidating AI earlier, my concern would be maintenance for the None and Low Bonus Games, the AI may not have enough resources, this would need to be tested and calabrated, but the result may be even a less intimidating AI in the Mid to end game.

Cybersol, what are the thoughts of the new way the AI is hard coded to use Population Transports for the se4 minister change?

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you have good ratios like 1 support ship for every 4 attack ships, and maintain that through all the doublings of the queue, then I don't see how you sacrifice late game performance. In fact where most empires just stop building quickly at higher bonuses in the late game, this should keep the AI always churning out more ships. And like a human player, you then end up utilizing most or all of your shipyards right up to the point maintenance becomes a problem. As maintenance becomes a problem the Maximum Maintenance Percent of Revenue kicks in and slows the building down. And because the queues are repeated evenly, you end up with a nice consistent force composition no matter when maintenance becomes a problem.

I am not aware of minister change you are refering to. Please tell me more about it. I played before 1.84 but I never got into modding the AI or using the ministers before then. I tried to search for more information, but all I found was a vague note in history.txt for 1.82.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you have good ratios like 1 support ship for every 4 attack ships, and maintain that through all the doublings of the queue, then I don't see how you sacrifice late game performance. In fact where most empires just stop building quickly at higher bonuses in the late game, this should keep the AI always churning out more ships. And like a human player, you then end up utilizing most or all of your shipyards right up to the point maintenance becomes a problem. As maintenance becomes a problem the Maximum Maintenance Percent of Revenue kicks in and slows the building down. And because the queues are repeated evenly, you end up with a nice consistent force composition no matter when maintenance becomes a problem.

I am not aware of minister change you are refering to. Please tell me more about it. I played before 1.84 but I never got into modding the AI or using the ministers before then. I tried to search for more information, but all I found was a vague note in history.txt for 1.82.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agreed, the Basic maintenance considerations, would probably not be a factor in Medium and especially High AI computer Bonus games as was stated in my Post, just its concern in None to Low bonus games.
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In regards to the loss of AI intimidation in mid to Late AI game play , overall Ship and Base Strength as it relates to score that is directly related to AI Diplomacy and the quality of the AI ship and base in itself.

If what has been posted is true, in regards to BUG 3, 3a and 3b.
And what you may be suggesting that; If the AI designer were to issue orders for the AI to build massive amounts of Ships earlier then in past designs:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As opposed to the gradual build up in the designers Current non-Moded and original se4 designs; then wouldn’t this exasperate the 3rd Bug you mentioned?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Follow up reference:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

[ June 18, 2003, 18:40: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ah, I think I see why we seem to be miscommunicating now. Obviously I was not clear. First of all, I am mainly advocating an EVEN build up of forces. Consider the AI in the midgame for now. Assume its in a state like defend (short term). Assume there are just three ship designs for the whole empire: colonizer, attack, and layer for example. I am saying the defend (short term) queue should look something like this:

name ppi mhal
attack 120 2
colonizer 360 1
layer 720 1
attack 60 4
colonizer 180 2
layer 360 1
attack 30 8
colonizer 90 4
layer 180 2
attack 15 16
colonizer 45 8
layer 90 4

Thus it starts out building small numbers of everything in the "right" relative ratios. Then it goes back and build more of everything in the same ratios. The top repeat is designed to handle the no bonus early game case while the bottom repeat is designed to handle the high bonus late game case.

Most people do something like this for their most important ships, say attack ships, but not for the entire line of attack, support, infrastructure, and colonizer ships.

Now in the exploration and not connected queues at the begging you have the normal build one attack ship, build one colonizer, etc. But after the initial preparations, you again have escalating copies of the heart of the build queue.

Does that explain it better? It thus builds very deliberately at first, then an even small number of all your ships, then an even medium number of all your ships, etc. Thus as long as you have resources all the shipyards will be producing full bLast. Only when the maintenance limit approaches will the AI slow down its building process. In a no bonus game it will produce a smaller number of ships and stop in the second doubled copy, but in a high bonus game it might get to the fourth or fifth doubled copy.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

[quote]Originally posted by cybersol:

Quote:

Originally posted by cybersol: [qb]Ah, I think I see why we seem to be miscommunicating now. Obviously I was not clear. First of all, I am mainly advocating an EVEN build up of forces. Consider the AI in the midgame for now. Assume its in a state like defend (short term). Assume there are just three ship designs for the whole empire: colonizer, attack, and layer for example. I am saying the defend (short term) queue should look something like this: name ppi mhal attack 120 2 colonizer 360 1 layer 720 1 attack 60 4 colonizer 180 2 layer 360 1 attack 30 8 colonizer 90 4 layer 180 2 attack 15 16 colonizer 45 8 layer 90 4 Thus it starts out building small numbers of everything in the "right" relative ratios. Then it goes back and build more of everything in the same ratios. The top repeat is designed to handle the no bonus early game case while the bottom repeat is designed to handle the high bonus late game case. Most people do something like this for their most important ships, say attack ships, but not for the entire line of attack, support, infrastructure, and colonizer ships. Now in the exploration and not connected queues at the begging you have the normal build one attack ship, build one colonizer, etc. But after the initial preparations, you again have escalating copies of the heart of the build queue. Does that explain it better? It thus builds very deliberately at first, then an even small number of all your ships, then an even medium number of all your ships, etc. Thus as long as you have resources all the shipyards will be producing full bLast. Only when the maintenance limit approaches will the AI slow down its building process. In a no bonus game it will produce a smaller number of ships and stop in the second doubled copy, but in a high bonus game it might get to the fourth or fifth doubled copy.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The results are the same in respect to a quicker build up of the Ships and Base amounts, from previous se4 Designs, in the opening to mid stages of the game. Possibly, the maximum depletion of the AIs Resource Reserves, well before the latest and strongest ship designs can be built in the Mid to Late game and leading to probable exasperated retrofit problems (“50% bug3, 3a,3b”) in the Mid to late game for the old existing designs the AI built and NOT lost thru combat from the early to mid game builds.

Possibly resulting in a loss of AI intimidation in mid to Late AI game play, and overall Ship and Base Strength as it relates to score that is directly related to AI Diplomacy and the quality of the AI Ship and Base designs built, in that of itself.
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With this aside, you are not suggesting that a Designer would start his Short Term Defense State in the manner as you described.

The objective of the AI Player, in the Short term defensive State; will be to expel the other Player out of his territory as soon as possible and for that AI Player to consider Defensive and Counter Offensive, options; thru a Strategic State Change and/or Diplomacy measures.

Colony ships would not be a good early placement in this AI Strategic State.

Even, Mine and Sat Layers would not be a good early choice unless they followed Attack Ships with a few STALL entries to increase their survivability.
=================================================
Possible early entries for the AI, Vehicle Construction File Layout for the AI Players Short Term Defense:

A much higher Attack Ship MHAL should be suggested not to mention *Displacement Attack Ship Grouping to expedite the need for a quick preemptive measure. A few Mine Sweepers /(types) also must be introduced very early if your (minefield value is :=False) , as not to have your AI, suckered into uneeded and continued losses; thru other players Minefields

Another possible, less likely to be successful scenario, in the short scope, but safer for your AI. Would be, If your Minefield Value was :=True , then you could build ALL attack ships and CV's first, and ending a preconceived fleet with many Standard Mine Sweepers, at that point your AI Players Offensive Attack Ships will be in near Position to Counter attack or in defensive actions with in, and the AI Players, latest built; Mine Sweepers will attempt to clear the way for the INITIAL Counter Offensive in the enemies terrotory.

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*Reference:
(EE, FF, DD etc..Displacement Attack Ship Grouping. Please refer to PvK’s Proportions, and PvK’s XiChung race Design File of an Excellent if not the best; Displacement Ship Design Group, example.)

Link
> Proportions for se4 <

[ June 18, 2003, 23:24: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

Ah, I see more what you are saying now as well. I guess I'm not as worried about obsolete (old tech) ship designs on the battlefield. If you are at war, then there are two possibility for these obsolete ships. If they survive then your fleets must be strong enough to conquer the opposition without having the latest tech (so it doesn't matter). And if they die, then the resources are free for modern ship designs to start rolling off the line.

As for the example I gave, I was assuming for demostration purposes that only three type of ships existed (which would be a dumb thing to do, but makes the example easier to show).

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am not confirming what you say is true, in regards to Bug 3, 3a, and 3b.

From “your play testing trials”, and in all aspects of your Posts and the follow-up post of others, it gives the impression that your “ obsolete (old tech) ship designs ” may never make it to a " forward battlefield ". For this reason, that you have declared, only the Newest and Strongest designs in a fragmented fleet will do the forward fighting, as the “ obsolete (old tech) ship designs ” will remain in a Ship Yards "orbit for a very long while"?

Please Refer to the Follow up reference:
quotes 5 Posts down.
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==
=

The AI Strategic State Planning and Layout is important, I posted the rebuttal only so others may understand that; your choices here, may decide the out come of that AI Players situation. A bad layout in the Short Term State (or many other AI States) may result in a prolonged and time-consuming Solid AI LT-Defense State; spelling the doom of this AI, with little hope for that AI Player changing the fortunes; of the chance for a Counter Offensive.

Also to point out the AI State Vehicle Build layout must have strong consideration as to the AI settings; you made for (Ships don't move through minefields := True or False) as well as all the other changes and/or additions you made thru the entire AI Race’s Folder
==============
Opinion only, for the need of a structured AI State plan, is outlined below:

The most forgiven AI State may be Not Connected.
The most flexible AI State may be Secure Holdings and/or Incursion.
The most, Strait forward AI State is Prepare to Attack and Attack
The most need for a meticulous planed AI State, may be explore and Infrastructure.
The most unforgiving AI State is Defend Short Term, Prepare for Defense and Defend Long Term.

[ June 19, 2003, 14:55: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Are you saying I'm crazy and I like to make AI bugs up? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Luckily AI bugs 3, 3a), and 3b) do not occur all that frequently. I've only seen up to about 5 ships affected simultaneously so far.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks for this great insight on AI State and its implications. I am still learning a lot here. For now, I am still using basically three build queues. One for exploration, one for not connected, and one for everything else (similar to Mephisto's AIs). I may expand on that later, but right now there are more critial areas under development.

In the meantime, why don't you explain a little more about AI state. You start out in exploration (assuming you are connected). Then encounter another empire. If they are far away, not a threat then you most likely go into infrastucture? If the are close by and maybe a threat then defend (short term)? What other state transitions are possible starting in the exploration state? The reason I ask is because it is important that my AI manage this transition from being alone in the universe to encountering another race, because right now it is very aggressive with colonization in its expansion phase (exploration state).

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

I also have used a few of your Posts to redo a few changes in AIC...

EDIT:
If I came off a little scruffy, I had the flue most of Last week http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

Thanks for this thread, Cybersol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 21, 2003, 23:36: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

(Yes) In the very first turn of the game. If the AI Starting HS is void of a warp point and unable to Explore and not a Ancient Race, the AI will Change to the Not Connected State.

~

Quote:

Then encounter another empire. If they are far away, not a threat then you most likely go into infrastucture?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
(No) The AI will remain in the Exploration State, if there are more Systems nearby still unexplored

~

Quote:

If the are close by and maybe a threat then defend (short term)?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

There is not a (maybe a threat), for the AI. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Threat would be constituted, if the other Player was not in an (Right Of Passage) Agreement, that Player would be considered the (Enemy) for the sake of this discussion.

(Yes) There is an Enemy ship in your AIs Claimed territory… Your AI may Change to Defend Short Term State.

(No) If there is an Enemy Near but not in the Claimed Territory, then your AI may go into Infrastructure State
~

Quote:

What other state transitions are possible starting in the exploration state?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Again, there are many possible Scenarios that can occur.

However, along with the AI Exploration State change in the Scenarios posted above. I would say the most Common would be if:

Your AI had an agreement with another Player and Your AI no longer had Systems, reasonably close to Explore, your AI would go into the Infrastructure State.

Definitions.

AI Exploration Strategic State:
This is where the AI; will explore new worlds and seek out new life, and boldly go where no other, AI has gone before.

On the serious side, your AI is expected to colonize more in this AI Exploration State and the Secure Holdings State then any other State.
However, it is recommended the Designers; AI Colonizer Production, stay within the Parameters of the MOD he, or she is designing for.
The finished product, in my opinion. Would be measured not how your AI competes against another AI, but how that AI deals and interacts with a Human Player http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
-
AI Infrastructure Strategic State:
This is where the AI, will build up its Infrastructure, to setup Passive defenses and to Start long term Projects. Example: Non-Offensive Stellar Manipulation devises and other Vehicles that would require a long and extensive build process.
-
AI Defend Short Term Strategic State:
This would be the first stage for the AI Player, to boot the other Enemy player out of his territory and for that AI to analyze its current Status for that current Situation.
-
AI Not Connected Strategic State:
This AI Player has colonized all of its available systems, and this AI player is currently disconnected from other systems in the Quadrant.
The basic goal for the AI here is to Research Techs that will Colonize new Planet types, open news Warps, Create new Planets and to stay competitive with its own Ship Designs, so when the Warp is opened; this AI has not opened Pandora’s Box http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 24, 2003, 04:52: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Quote:

Originally posted by cybersol: Scout and Colony ships with mine sweeping and cloak died horribly without sweeping any of the mines. Mine sweepers will de-cloak for a previously marked mine field, but then they will cloak and move forward and happily die without sweeping any mines on the next warp point that has not been marked. So it sort of works for mine sweepers, but not at all for the rest.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Cybersol, thanks for the tip.
I was able to change a few things around in a few of the AIC designs in this Last Version http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Again, thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 21, 2003, 23:30: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm glad you found something I wrote useful, because you have been much more helpful to me in my AI design efforts.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How would the AI go from Exploration to Prepare for Attack? Or to Incursion?

When is Prepare for Defense used?

How long do Prepare for Attack and Prepare for Defense typically Last?

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good questions... and I have only a few answers.

Defend Short Term: The most important thing, is know that 95% of the time during the game, the AI is under the "Defend (Short Term)"...
IF the AI see a enemy ship into a system where the AI have a single planet, then the AI will change to "Defend (Short Term)".

Exploration: the AI always start into the Exploration state until the first contact. The AI could move again to the Exploration state, after some time without see ships/planets of another race.

Infraestructure: can remember that Aaron said that the AI move to Infraestructure state, after a long time without change the current state.

When Gold was near to be released, some beta testers had a chat into a Shrapnel forum with Aaron (I was unable to be Online when this happened http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ). Can remember that Aaron did a post explaining how the AI change the state, but now this forum was erased.

Anyway IMHO, because the AI most the time will be into the Defense Short Term (and exploration in the early game), the modder should consider the these states as the most importants.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Assuming no changes from se4 Version 1.78
============================

On average the most AI State Changes, from the Exploration State is to:
1: Defend Short Term State
2: Infrastructure State
3: Not Connected State

Ok, from the first Exploration State; your AI just went into Infrastructure State, as we have previously discussed, by either (A)or(B)

A: Your AI had an agreement with another Player and Your AI no longer had Systems, reasonably close to Explore, your AI would go into the Infrastructure State.

If (A) was the only Variable, the AI or AI’s will live happily ever-after. Remain in Infrastructure and (may) Consider Not Connected State, at some point.

However, ALL: AI Settings Files, Anger Files, Politics Files and Accept Treaties; WILL always be in play. It is probable at some point, that/those AI may not like; living happily ever-after forever, and break the (Existing Treaty with the other Original Player)

===

B: If there is an Enemy Near but not in the Claimed Territory, then your AI may go into Infrastructure State

If (B) is the only variable to consider, and other Player had no agreement, then from the Infrastructure State.

If the Enemy Players System are Nearby, the AI may Consider the Prepare Attack State then to consider the actual * Attack State.
(This is why continuing a new game, when you start next to Psychos, like the XiChung; is not usually a winnable choice, in any se4 Game)
-
The AI may just consider the Incursion State early with a quick Muster, if that AI considers the enemies systems, is not well defended.
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(C):The AI (may) Consider a Prepare for Defense State.
If the (adjacent system vs. Home/System) Ship strength numbers are not even near favorable
====
((D)): If your AI, IS IN any State mentioned above, and ANY ENEMY Player has entered your territory, then your AI WILL Change to Defend Short Term State for a few turns :

Your AI will now; analyze its current Situation, IF-THEN :

IF enemy is still in its territory after a few turns go by, it will remain in the Defend Short Term State * that may continue to * Prepare for Defense State, and in the end; to Defend (Long Term) State. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
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Until:
(E) Enemy is NOT IN that AI’s territory and there are NO Systems to Explore; then your AI may revert to the ~(B) Infrastructure State

FROM (E)to(B)THEN and IF , Enough time since the Last Attack has passed from your AI Settings File (XiChung @ Turns to Wait until next attack := 6) then your AI WILL consider from (B) Infrastructure State again, for an Attack or an Incursion

(F) However, from Defend Short Term, if no enemy is in that AI territory, or nearby and there are Systems to Explore still; then your AI may revert all the way back to the Exploration State and start the above process, from the Scenario you presented; all over again.

========================================

* ~Tip~ * (IMO) To maintain the continuity and the transition to the next AI State; designers may want to stay with the default format intact for both:

AI State := Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)

(AND)

AI State := Prepare for Attack, Attack

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Also (IMO FWIW):
Absolutely, a deviation from the from the above Format, may yield some FUNKY results, but this may also, lead to a distortion of the intended MODs, logical and total Combat (or Design TYPE) Ship totals.
It may also lead, to the dreaded Defend (Long Term) or just to stay stuck in Defend (Short Term); and/or resulting in no logic.
===========================================

Definitions and Actions:

AI Defend Short Term Strategic State:
This would be the first stage for the AI Player, to boot the other Enemy player out of his territory and for that AI to analyze its current Status for that current Situation
(Continues for about 5 turns. Then this AI will make a decisive decision; for the next State Change) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
As outlined in ((D)),(E), and (F).
-

AI Prepare to Attack State:
AI considers a nearby enemy system is weak and could be conquered. Your AI will now prepare a Fleet/Fleets and get ready to attack that system.

AI Attack State:
Your AI will now consider this to be a valid and doable Attack, if so, then the AI will attack that Enemy System and attempt to conquer it.

In both the above, Prepare for Attack, Attack States, your AI has some save guards, so your AI may revert to various other states, however, the State you DO want to see, as the next change, is the:

Secure Holdings State
Your AI’s attack has been completed and it was VICTORIOUS. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Your AI will send in ships to secure the system (a few pre-built defense ships will do well here, if any planets were captured +Happy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif , and your AI will now want to colonize any empty planets… http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
This is were your next best Colony Expansion Policy, should reap, the next best and safest rewards http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

When in the Secure Holdings State and that newly conquered System is now totally secured; your AI will revert back to ~(B) Infrastructure State...
And your AI, may start the process all over again, begining from ~(B) Infrastructure State http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Also note: If any Enemy enters any Territory, also from the Secure Holdings State.
Your AI will revert, briefly; to the ((D)) AI Defend Short Term Strategic State:
To re-evaluate
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END
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After over 6 hours, with this post. I think, I thought; every thing, trough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Any questions, please don’t hesitate to ask.

[ June 24, 2003, 02:07: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Absolutely MB, I agree. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
This is by far the most Critical of all the States to set up.

Actually the entire Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term) upto the Defend (Long Term) AI State falls under this need, for that AI; to do its best to oust the intruder; ASAP. (*See Note)

If it is unable, this AI has, in essence; resigned, to defend it-self with a costly, Defend (Long Term) State http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
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==
=
(*Note):
Without this AI designer, distorting and/or undermining the se4 or MODS, LOGICAL total Combat(or Design TYPE) Ship PPI and MHAL Parameters.

[ June 22, 2003, 23:27: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

MB and JLS, thanks for both of your very helpful comments explaining more about AI state to me. I am beginning to have enough of an understanding to break out construction queues in more detail. Here are my thoughts so far.

Right now I'm using these 3 groupings:
Exploration

Not Connected

Infrastructure, Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term), Secure Holdings After Attack

I'm considering the following 6 groupings:
Exploration

Not Connected

Infrastructure

Secure Holdings After Attack

Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion

Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)

In the new groupings, I broke out Exploration and Not Connected for critical early game considerations. I broke out infrastructure because its the only relatively peaceful mid-game state. I broke out secure holdings after attack to emphasize a little extra colonization (but not as much as exploration), and with expectations of another attack soon. Finally I group the aggressive states together, and the defensive states together.

What do you guys think of those 6 groupings?

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I do not under stand, Rollo, What other AI state Changes are you referring to, and what event or other, would make it very rare?

[ June 23, 2003, 19:53: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This may work for you, Cybersol. And you have the most critical States covered: Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
=
What (MAY or MAY NOT) prove to be problematic, is the AI in its pocket, has specific safe guards, for some specific events or order of events; in each specific State.

It will always be a wonder, if the AI did and has followed all the possable, reactionary State Changes and logic.

More fuel for thought http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

AI State := Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion

The interesting aspect of the default combined AI strategic state of Secure Holdings After Attack and Incursion, is that in in both these States, your AI will immediately MUSTER ships that are already available, to include the ships that are already nearby for your AI to direct towards that TARGETED system.
All in the same while, your AIs Ship Yards are cranking out the needed support ships and replacements for either mission, and if you really think about it. Both missions require the exact same needs.
=
Please consider:
For the Attack, your AI’s is required to: Prepare First, long before the actual Commitment will be made on an Attack State; for that AI's already been pre-determined, enemy targeted System.

Once Prepaired, and the forces are ready to attack. The AI WILL now evaluate if this Attack is still valid: and if so, then commit to the; AI Attack State.

To name a few COMMON events/safe gaurds, your AI WILL evaluate:
1: Is the target system even good anymore.
2: Is there enough ships to make this attack.
3: Can Target system still be conquered.
4: Fleet/System build up, is it (valid).
5: Does it have enough ships to continue this attack.
6: Too long in this state.

Please also consider, your AI may be taking on a big objective, so your AI will Prepare needed Attack Ships, loaded CVs, loaded Troop Ships and Mine Sweepers. In the Prepare State. Then after the deed is done and you should win, A few colony ships, layers, Pop Transports, etc. will only then be required.
====

I would consider the basic mission needs, and compare them.

Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion. Both here require a quick strike with a few assets and the need for speedy reinforcements.

[ June 23, 2003, 23:03: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I do not under stand, Rollo, What other AI state Changes are you referring to, and what event or other, would make it very rare?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am referring to the AI states that were not covered in queues 1) - 4). Namely: Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Long Term). I have seen the AI very rarely (if ever) in these states. When I say rare I mean less than 5%.

Defend (Short Term) is the dominant AI state. Infrastructure is second. Occasionally the AI goes to 'Prepare for Attack' and 'Attack' after that.

Rollo

[ June 23, 2003, 21:08: Message edited by: Rollo ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I do not under stand, Rollo, What other AI state Changes are you referring to, and what event or other, would make it very rare?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am referring to the AI states that were not covered in queues 1) - 4). Namely: Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Long Term). I have seen the AI very rarely (if ever) in these states. When I say rare I mean less than 5%.

Defend (Short Term) is the dominant AI state. Infrastructure is second. Occasionally the AI goes to 'Prepare for Attack' and 'Attack' after that.

Rollo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Rollo,
What Vehicle Construction File of your design, would you suggest be referenced, as it involves the less dominate AI states. Namely: Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion, Prepare for Defense, Defend (Long Term).

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

I have TDM (AI CONSTRUCTION VEHICLES DATA FILE - Cue Cappa)

Rollo,
Would this be your design to reference?

[ June 23, 2003, 22:32: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

Well, the Cue Cappa are a rather old AI. I think the best reference of my design would newer designs like the TDM United Flora or any of the newer Devnull Mod AI (United Flora, Sonne, Xi'Chung, Ukratal).

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

Thanks, Rollo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I had noticed this pattern in your UF, Vikings, and Cue Cappa. Thanks for interpreting it and telling me the logic behind it.

I was going to separate Defend (Short Term) from Infrastructure because the former implies a slight to moderate enemy presence while the later implies relative peace. When I actually get down to the details though, the queues might be similar enough to merge.

Also, I think JLS makes a good point about needing a few extra colony ships fast for the brief period you are in the Secure Holdings after Attack. Although it's a rare state, it only takes a minor effort to copy the attack queue and move colonization up in priority and location. (Feel like I need to thank gandalph again for giving me the link to renumber.exe, what a time saver).

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Could you elaborate on this, JLS? As I understand it now, the Secure state is to move into a conquered AI system, take hold and make it your own. Hopefully the AI is also priming for another prepare/attack/secure sequence of events. As such I was thinking of a queue similar to the attack states, but with a little bit more colonization.

The incursion state I thought was like a minor harrasment of the enemy. I grouped this with the more aggressive attack states because if I have the power to harass, I want to build up the power to attack. Hopefully more force will enable the AI to go through an attack instead of just an incursion. However, does a switch to incursion occur when I want to flood and co-colonize an enemy system? Only then can I see it being so similar to the Secure State, but again I would probably prefer to attack it if possible.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

I would suggest the following groupings:
1) Exploration

2) Infrastructure, Defend (Short Term) - this is your main game plan. Depending on the plan for your AI you could include Exploration as well. I have done that a couple of times lately.

3) Prepare for Attack, Attack - I use this mainly to churn out warships and with higher priority for troops and transports. But it really depends on the overall strategy of your AI what you do here exactly. High priority for fighters, carriers and fleet support ships also work good here as well as building more mine sweepers. Like I said, it mainly depends on the AI game plan.

4) Not Connected - Besides from the obvious Open Warp Point ship also make one Create Planet ship.

5) everything else - don't bother with this queue too much. Other AI states than the ones already covered are very rare.

Hope this helps,
Rollo

[ June 23, 2003, 14:17: Message edited by: Rollo ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

Originally posted by cybersol:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">TRUE

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You did not present a scenario here, but from the Secure Holdings State, and your AI Targets system has been secured:

-

Please refer to Definitions and Actions.

When in the Secure Holdings State and that newly conquered System is now totally secured; your AI will revert back to ~(B) Infrastructure State...
And your AI, may start the process all over again, beginning from ~(B) Infrastructure State

-
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">True, at any and or ALL Enemies Systems/Territories of opportunity; with only a few parameters and safeguards.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The results with the set up you have would be interesting.

Please remember, Prepare to Attack will only be triggered if there is a vulnerable target System near. IIRC, (Not more 2 systems away). As not to string out the AI fleets.
However, In the Prepare to Attack State; Your AI needs to prepare your Attack Fleets with all the needed ships for that Attack, to fulfill at least these two requirements

1: Forces are now ready to attack
2: Target System can be conquered
Just for the minimum chance to get to the, Attack State

I am unsure of how many base yards you will be operating, with your se4 AI. Could you indicate the expected amount? After the first 51 turns, but before the 70th Turn? (2 BSY or 3)
Attack Ships (many)
Units (optional, but recommended)
Carrier (loaded)
Troop Transport (loaded)
Drone Carrier (loaded) (if desired)
Kamikaze Attack Ship/Aux
Boarding Ship/Aux
Mine Sweeper (placement depends on AI Settings)

Support Ships
Colonizer: (IMO) Not a priority in the Attack States at least one, late.
Layers: not recommended at all.

This, all must be done with out taking to long to prepare.

Now for the actual Attack State to take, your AI must pass the requirements in the Previous post.
=
Sorry, it took so many words to get to this point. With to few words in the First post, on Incursion.

If you have the Incursion State with the Attack State, this does not mean your AI State will automatically change to the Attack State, and you may already no this, sorry, if that was the case.
You will remain in the Incursion State and build every ship on this Prepare to Attack list.
Until:
For a your worse case scenario.Lets not consider, Defend Short Term State, were an enemy entered your territory.
1: Enemy forces destroyed and you win.
2: Target system to well defended, and you lose.
There is no time limit in this State.
Therefore, you will build what ever is on that Prepare to Attack State, List. In addition, to all this implies. Until, condition One or Two is meet, this may be awhile and you really may not of needed many if any of these builds to complete the Incursion mission/s.
Because the AI, all ready calculated, to use what localized Ship or Ships it had available to it, when it decided, this attempt to wreak havoc, with-in the enemies Territories.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, a switch, to the Incursion, will only happen, as I posted below from Scenario (B) Infrastructure.
===
When either 1 or 2 is satisfied:
1: Enemy forces destroyed and you win.
2: Target system to well defended, and you lose.
Your, AI will revert from Incursion State back to (B) Infrastructure State and may reconsider another Incursion, or even a Prepare Attack;
When,
-

“ Enough time since the Last Attack has passed from your AI Settings File (XiChung @ Turns to Wait until next attack := 6) then your AI WILL consider from (B) Infrastructure State again, for an Attack or an Incursion”

-
And now, that you just invested, in Actuality a Prepare for attack (when a Incursion was the call). Can you say that your AI can afford another tumble thru Prepare for Attack, again, and again? Please consider, will you have exotic ships like the Planet or System Destroyer, etc… In the Prepare for Attack.
If not, then were would you request them?

In regards to Colonizer flow after a, successful or unsuccessful Incursion. The follow-up Colonizers will come from the Infrastructure State.

You also may have colonizers that were built in your Prepare Attack,Attack,Incursion setup

Or that would have been built, with a healthy Coloizer PPI/MHAL in the:
AI State := Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Please consider the possible event that a military ally or two, could have fueled the Ships used in your AI’s incursions.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Secure Holdings State will only arise from a newly conquered System, as a result of the Attack State. This was preceded by a Prepare for attack State; a vulnerable target System that was not more then 2 Systems away triggered that.

==

Also, please note , at some point in this AI’s game, this nearby System WILL be some Players Home System, that your AI WILL be considering the Prepare for Attack State; that may decide the game.

Alternatively, it could be your AI’s Home System, which Will be considered for a Prepare for Attack. Vulnerable and not more then 2 Systems away from another AI Player in that same (B) Infrastructure States, and now it is your AI, that WILL be considering, Prepare for Defense State; that WILL decide the game.

Believe it or not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

=================================================

The AI strategic state of Secure Holdings After Attack and Incursion, is similar in that, both these States your AI will immediately MUSTER ships; that are already available.

One Last consideration, for this format.
AI State := Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion

If combined, it is extreamly flexable, and often returned to by your AI http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The only ships you really need is:
Attack Ship (a few or many)
Colonizer (on par with reasonable explore numbers)
Defense Ship (only a few light Hulled, recommended)
Units.
Mine Layer
Satellite Layer
Population Transport
A few more Attack Shps if you feel little more padding, or any builds you feel may be to your AI's best interest.

[ June 26, 2003, 12:54: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

Originally posted by JLS:

============================

On average the most AI State Changes, from the Exploration State is to:
1: Defend Short Term State
2: Infrastructure State
3: Not Connected State

Ok, from the first Exploration State; your AI just went into Infrastructure State, as we have previously discussed, by either (A)or(B)

A: Your AI had an agreement with another Player and Your AI no longer had Systems, reasonably close to Explore, your AI would go into the Infrastructure State.

If (A) was the only Variable, the AI or AI’s will live happily ever-after. Remain in Infrastructure and (may) Consider Not Connected State, at some point.

However, ALL: AI Settings Files, Anger Files, Politics Files and Accept Treaties; WILL always be in play. It is probable at some point, that/those AI may not like; living happily ever-after forever, and break the (Existing Treaty with the other Original Player)

===

B: If there is an Enemy Near but not in the Claimed Territory, then your AI may go into Infrastructure State

If (B) is the only variable to consider, and other Player had no agreement, then from the Infrastructure State.

If the Enemy Players System are Nearby, the AI may Consider the Prepare Attack State then to consider the actual * Attack State.
(This is why continuing a new game, when you start next to Psychos, like the XiChung; is not usually a winnable choice, in any se4 Game)
-
The AI may just consider the Incursion State early with a quick Muster, if that AI considers the enemies systems, is not well defended.
---
(C):The AI (may) Consider a Prepare for Defense State.
If the (adjacent system vs. Home/System) Ship strength numbers are not even near favorable
====
((D)): If your AI, IS IN any State mentioned above, and ANY ENEMY Player has entered your territory, then your AI WILL Change to Defend Short Term State for a few turns :

Your AI will now; analyze its current Situation, IF-THEN :

IF enemy is still in its territory after a few turns go by, it will remain in the Defend Short Term State * that may continue to * Prepare for Defense State, and in the end; to Defend (Long Term) State. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
-----
Until:
(E) Enemy is NOT IN that AI’s territory and there are NO Systems to Explore; then your AI may revert to the ~(B) Infrastructure State

FROM (E)to(B)THEN and IF , Enough time since the Last Attack has passed from your AI Settings File (XiChung @ Turns to Wait until next attack := 6) then your AI WILL consider from (B) Infrastructure State again, for an Attack or an Incursion

(F) However, from Defend Short Term, if no enemy is in that AI territory, or nearby and there are Systems to Explore still; then your AI may revert all the way back to the Exploration State and start the above process, from the Scenario you presented; all over again.

========================================

* ~Tip~ * (IMO) To maintain the continuity and the transition to the next AI State; designers may want to stay with the default format intact for both:

AI State := Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)

(AND)

AI State := Prepare for Attack, Attack

---
Also (IMO FWIW):
Absolutely, a deviation from the from the above Format, may yield some FUNKY results, but this may also, lead to a distortion of the intended MODs, logical and total Combat (or Design TYPE) Ship totals.
It may also lead, to the dreaded Defend (Long Term) or just to stay stuck in Defend (Short Term); and/or resulting in no logic.
===========================================

Definitions and Actions:

AI Defend Short Term Strategic State:
This would be the first stage for the AI Player, to boot the other Enemy player out of his territory and for that AI to analyze its current Status for that current Situation
(Continues for about 5 turns. Then this AI will make a decisive decision; for the next State Change) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
As outlined in ((D)),(E), and (F).
-

AI Prepare to Attack State:
AI considers a nearby enemy system is weak and could be conquered. Your AI will now prepare a Fleet/Fleets and get ready to attack that system.

AI Attack State:
Your AI will now consider this to be a valid and doable Attack, if so, then the AI will attack that Enemy System and attempt to conquer it.

In both the above, Prepare for Attack, Attack States, your AI has some save guards, so your AI may revert to various other states, however, the State you DO want to see, as the next change, is the:

Secure Holdings State
Your AI’s attack has been completed and it was VICTORIOUS. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Your AI will send in ships to secure the system (a few pre-built defense ships will do well here, if any planets were captured +Happy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif , and your AI will now want to colonize any empty planets… http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
This is were your next best Colony Expansion Policy, should reap, the next best and safest rewards http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

When in the Secure Holdings State and that newly conquered System is now totally secured; your AI will revert back to ~(B) Infrastructure State...
And your AI, may start the process all over again, begining from ~(B) Infrastructure State http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Also note: If any Enemy enters any Territory, also from the Secure Holdings State.
Your AI will revert, briefly; to the ((D)) AI Defend Short Term Strategic State:
To re-evaluate
=
===
=
Any questions, please don’t hesitate to ask.

Continure next post

[ June 24, 2003, 23:19: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So let us say my AI has plenty of resource reserves and is half way through building everything in the "Prepare for Attack" queue. Then it switches to another state, say "Defend (Short Term)" to repel a small enemy fleet from its territory. Lets say theoretically that it manages to do this without taking any loses, without building any ships, and without colonizing any planets. When it switches back to "Prepare for Attack", the first ship added to construction queues will be from what location in the "Prepare for Attack" queue? Will it be the first entry at the top, the Last entry at the bottom, or would it be the exact entry it would have produced next if it had never been interrupted by the "Defend (Short Term)" state?

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cybersol,

From the Variables you described above:

Your build queues will continue the construction process to complete, all Items, which are already under construction from your previous, Prepare for Attack State. (IIRC) Any Items, other then top in processed Item, will be cleared from the queues.

-

Please remember, your AI now had a change State; to Defend Short Term, basically for (5 Turns)
Now, with this new State Change, the AI will fill all available build queues, Starting at the top of the AI State: = Defend Short Term List (Irregardless of the format: i.e. Combined with any other AI State or not. Subject to AI State rules.

It is recommended, that units be placed at the top of this Defend Short Term, because the AI Switches in an out of this State frequently. This way, thru out the game your Home World will be assured of a fresh supply.
Any available BSYs or Yard Facilities will continue on with the Defend (Short Term) list, of course the BSY will only receive, Ship or Base requests.

This reminds me. Cybersol, about how many BSYs do you expect at about turn 55?

Defend Short Term:
Entry 1 Type: Weapon Platform (Highly suggested, to insure steady and continues builds of fresh designs for your se4 AI’s Home World.
2: Satellites and or Fighters
Attack Ships
Defense Ships (Optional)
Etc

Please note: From the Defend (Short Term) With no enemy in your Territory, the AI will only change to Infrastructure State or the Exploration as out lined below.

(E) Enemy is NOT IN that AI’s territory and there are NO Systems to Explore; then your AI may revert to the ~(B) Infrastructure State

FROM (E)to(B)THEN and IF , Enough time since the Last Attack has passed from your AI Settings File (XiChung @ Turns to Wait until next attack := 6) then your AI WILL consider from (B) Infrastructure State again, for an Attack or an Incursion

Or

(F) However, from Defend Short Term, if no enemy is in that AI territory, or nearby and there are Systems to Explore still; then your AI may revert all the way back to the Exploration State.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Your build queues will continue the construction process to complete, all Items, which are already under construction from your previous, Defend (Short Term). (IIRC) Any Items, other then top in processed Item, will be cleared from the queues.
=
When the AI; picks a selection based on the AI State, the first item in the queue is selected, and evaluated , the AI will fill all available build queues.

=

Reference:

AI CONSTRUCTION VEHICLES DATA FILE
Rules:
1. The game picks a selection based on the AI State. There cannot be duplicate
AI states.
2. Item will be placed at whichever spaceyard is available and can get it done the fastest.
3. First item in the queue is selected, and evaluated. We construct if:
Please refer to file for formula. If I post data, a HTML error here will, exist http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
4. If the Build at Least value is greater than 0, we check if the Planet Per Item condition
is still true. If it is, then we purchase another one, if not, we move to the next
queue item. If we do purchase another one, we continue in this loop until the
condition is false, or we have purchased the number in Build At Least.
5. When the Last item is reached, it restarts at the beginning.

[ June 25, 2003, 02:07: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When it switches back to "Prepare for Attack" after my hypothetical situation, it will indeed process the first entry. But it has already completed this entry since neither PPI nor MHAL has changed since it was Last in this queue (because no ships were made or destroyed and no planet were made). Thus the first "ship" it will add to a construction queue is exactly the one it would have added if it had never switched to the "Defend (Short Term)" state.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Given the example above about how the queues work, I don't really see why it would be expensive to make multiple passes through a "Prepare for Attack" like queue. Either you have a ship already and it can skip the entry or you still need it so you build it. If you call for one star destroyer (PPI=0,MHAL=1), then as long as it is either being built or already built and still surviving then you will never build another.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Being in the proportions type frame of mind, you are not going to like the answer. Right now, it would have zero. I may eventually add one or two to better handle single planet starts. By turn 55, it would have a large number of planetary yards though.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I disagree slightly here. In the unmodded game there is very little cargo room on planets. The small cargo room makes it more important to plan which units are built on each planet type. The construction_units file allow this type of specific assignment. Using the construction_units file also free's up planetary space yards to work on ships instead of units. With a few exceptions based on needed cargo for carriers or layers, I think most units should be built through the construction_units file in the unmodded game.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Indeed: Yes, exactly as I posted.

When the AI; picks a selection based on the AI State (in your hypothetical situation, to: Prepare for Attack; (as in any AI state change), the first item in the queue is selected, and evaluated , the AI will fill all available build queues.

However, what you are not excepting, Cybersol, too be true; is that your AI will NEVER return to the Prepare for Attack State, from the Defend (Short Term) State.

In addition, your build queues will continue the construction process to complete, all Items, which are already under construction; from your previous, STATE.
~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cybersol, again, your AI WILL NOT, return to the Prepare for Attack State, from the Defend (Short Term)" state, as I explained in all my Posts you, you have read, and commented on.

Respect to your hypothetical situation:
IF the AI will NOT return to Prepare for Attack State from the Defend (Short Term)" state, how can your AI start off, were it left off?

With your intended Formats, you posted below.
=
==
=
Regards to any other theoretical, AI State Change:
Also, please, refer to se4 Rules; regarding, were the AI will start the construction queue.
How is it interpreted, by you Cybersol, that:
“ Thus the first "ship" it will add to a construction queue is exactly the one it would have added if it had never switched '' state. ”

Please, point out your referance.
=================================================
Rules: AI CONSTRUCTION VEHICLES DATA FILE

1. The game picks a selection based on the AI State. There cannot be duplicate
AI states.
2. Item will be placed at whichever spaceyard is available and can get it done the fastest.
3. First item(Note:not "ship") in the queue is selected, and evaluated.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">We construct if:
a. There are less than X planets
per each item, (if there are 13 planets
and we already have 4 ships
of this design type,
and the Planet Per Item value = 3,
then we buy another one).
If PPI &lt; (Num Planets /
Num Ships of Type), construct.</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">~
4. If the Build at Least value is greater than 0, we check if the Planet Per Item condition
is still true.
If it is, then we purchase another one, if not, we move to the next
queue item. If we do purchase another one, we continue in this loop until the
condition is false, or we have purchased the number in Build At Least.
5. When the Last item is reached, it restarts at the beginning.

Cybersol groupings:
Exploration
Not Connected
Infrastructure
Secure Holdings After Attack
Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion
Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
=================================================
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am sorry, Cybersol. Your example above, as you can see was, flawed.
Since the AI will NEVER change to Prepare for Attack FROM the Defend (Short Term) as a logic, or even by your groupings, posted.
======

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cybersol.
Some how you have confused the Post I made; (IMO) Why, you should Not have Incursion State combined with the Prepare for Attack, Attack State.
With your Hypothetical Scenario about The AI Switching to, Prepare to Attack from Secure Defend (Short Term)" state.
---
As you recall, this is to say if you have a PPI on any of your ITEMS types, you gave in your format group of: Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion

And now knowing that the AI does enter the Incursion frequently, then, yes, your ships count will increase rapidly, PER the PPI every time you enter the Incursion state as I pointed out in THAT post, this will include every Item you have in your Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion

In regards to Exotic ships, I was just asking your intent, and where you thought a reasonable group would be for your AI to call it.

However, since you have now said, yes, you are going to have ONE star Destroyer, and it will be in you’re: Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion State.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am surprised you will have on hand, such an exotic and expensive Star Destroyer, “just for a minor harrasment on the enemy” from this, AI Incursion mission. Not to mention the Items that will continue to be built in that Incursion Mission in the way you have its group setup.

I have question, if, you run out of maintenance and will build no new ships. Yet your research continues, your designs are improving and you cannot retrofit, do to lack of resources and now you have a windfall of Resources. Can your AI, then retrofit considering the 50% rule.

What you suggest is an offensive, doctrine, however:
What of resources when your AI actually, will need to plan a: Prepare for Attack then Attack:
One, Nearby well defended system (Perhaps another Players, HS)

Just as important:
Now what if the AI, will need to plan for a; Prepare for Defense at some point in the game, will this be possible, if it has no resources.
(Perhaps Your AI Players, HS)

Most important:
Now what if the AI, will be in need to Defend (Long Term) at some point in the game, will this be possible, if it has no resources.
===

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting, is not the default Space Empires 4 AI Construction Vehicles file, the unmodded game.

reference:
Excerpt from se4 unmodded, default file:

AI State := Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
Num Queue Entries := 21
Entry 1 Type := Weapon Platform
Entry 1 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 1 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 2 Type := Satellite
Entry 2 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 2 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 3 Type := Attack Ship
Entry 3 Planet Per Item := 30
Entry 3 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 4 Type := Mine
Entry 4 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 4 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 5 Type := Fighter
Entry 5 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 5 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 6 Type := Mine Sweeper
Entry 6 Planet Per Item := 200
Entry 6 Must Have At Least := 1
Entry 7 Type := Colonizer
Entry 7 Planet Per Item := 100
Entry 7 Must Have At Least := 1
Entry 8 Type := Weapon Platform
Entry 8 Planet Per Item := 5
Entry 8 Must Have At Least := 10
Entry 9 Type := Satellite
Entry 9 Planet Per Item := 5
Entry 9 Must Have At Least := 10
Entry 10 Type := Mine
Entry 10 Planet Per Item := 5
Entry 10 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 11 Type := Fighter
Entry 11 Planet Per Item := 2
Entry 11 Must Have At Least := 20
Entry 12 Type := Troop
Entry 12 Planet Per Item := 10
Entry 12 Must Have At Least := 2

====
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Are you stating here, that the Home World or Colonies with a planetary space yard, will not build units, just ships.
Just kidding http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Actually, the Construction Units File, does for all the colonies. That the Construction Vehicles files, could never have achieved. As it relates to Units.
Wouldn’t you agree http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 25, 2003, 21:03: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I re-read your previous post, which has been edited since I read it Last. You are saying it will most likely transition through an Infrastructure state before it can get back to the prepare for attack state?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Assume all intervening queues were dummy queues with a call for one attack ship. Since the prepare for attack already build a lot of these attack ships, no new ones will be built.

The point of the example, flawed as it was, is that the AI will never rebuild anything it already has, so you do not have to worry about multiple passes close in time through the same queue of items.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally in the queue lets say it was just about to add the first ship from entry 15 to a build queue, but it never did add that ship because it just added the Last one from entry 14 when it left the Prepare for Attack state. In the example no ships were built or destroyed while in the other AI states, and no planets were colonized. When it looks at entry 1 when it returns to the "Prepare for Attack" state, it will see that PPI and MHAL are already satisfied because those ships or whatever the entry calls for have already in existence. Thus it will move on to entry 2 without adding anything to a build queue, and so on until entry 14. The Last time at entry 14, we had just added the Last ship that satisfied the PPI and MHAL criteria, so this time it will move on past entry 14 (it may still be building a few of these ships from Last time if they took a long time to build, but that counts as existence to the AI). Thus, the first ship it will ADD to a construction queue is the first one in entry 15. Right where it left off.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again, I think multiply not the ideal description of how the queues work. Every time it enters the Incursion state it will start at the top and try to build forces, but the nth time through it will have most of the forces from the nth-1 time, so it will only build the ones it needs. How does that result in ship multiplication?

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What I suggest is a difference in doctorine, to be sure. But it is not inherently an offensive or defensive doctorine. The doctorine is to utilize the AI resources of materials and building queues to their maximal extent as early as possible. This is how I, as a human player, would play the game, so why shouldn't the AI?

Now there are some minor drawbacks due to what the AI is capable of, but IMO there are major drawbacks to leaving the resources sitting idle.

On the obsolescence front, the AI will have ships that are older technology (so would I). In general this is a good thing because it means the AI is rapidly progressing in its research. It does leave the need to retrofit, which the AI will sometimes attempt to do. If you maximum maintenance percentage of revenue is set correctly, you will still have the resource reserves to retrofit. The 50% rule is always a minor problem, particularly for the mid-game LC to BC hulls. But, it will remain a problem even if I build fewer ships.

On the when your AI needs resources for attack or defense front, I beleive a large standing set of fleets is the best way to have a successful attack or defense. If I have the maximum number of ships fielded and replace them as fast as possible, then I have done the most I can to ensure a successful attack or a successful defense. There is then no need to build ships because they are already built.

Now, your way, you are invaded and you start to enter the defense state, and only then do you begin a buildup of the forces you need to defend. What if you can not build fast enough?

My way, the standing fleet engages the enemy. As loses are incurred, newer 'modern' replacements are built. The faster the loses are incurred the faster the resources are freed for new construction. In the worst case scenario my standing fleet is demolished and I begin a buildup of new forces to defend.

In the worst case scenario, my strategy defaults to your fresh buildup as the resources are freed nearly instantaneously. If I can't build fast enough now, I am doomed, but you would have been as well. And you never had the extra chance of winning that the standing navy provided.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So let us say my AI has plenty of resource reserves and is half way through building everything in the "Prepare for Attack" queue. Then it switches to another state, say "Defend (Short Term)" to repel a small enemy fleet from its territory. Lets say theoretically that it manages to do this without taking any loses, without building any ships, and without colonizing any planets. When it switches back to "Prepare for Attack", the first ship added to construction queues will be from what location in the "Prepare for Attack" queue? Will it be the first entry at the top, the Last entry at the bottom, or would it be the exact entry it would have produced next if it had never been interrupted by the "Defend (Short Term)" state?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What are you talking about: Assume all intervening queues were dummy queues ???
Why would I do that.

Where was this stated that there are; intervening queues were dummy queues in your POSTED; hypothetical situation, Or all the first 15 PPI settings are unobtainable) above?

Regards to:
“And now knowing that the AI does enter the Incursion frequently, then, yes, your ships count will increase rapidly, PER the PPI every time you enter the Incursion state as I pointed out in THAT post, this will include every Item you have in your Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion
“
Please refer to:
Cybersol,
Now knowing that the AI does enter the Incursion frequently, then, yes, your ships count will increase rapidly, PER the PPI every time you enter the Incursion state as I pointed out in THAT post, this will include every Item you have in your Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion.

Cybersol, all you need to do now, is Study and Learn the:
AI CONSTRUCTION VEHICLES DATA FILE, Rules.
Focus on line 3, first sentence.
3. First item in the queue is selected
Unless of coarse your first 15, lines are, what, dummies. (Or all your first 15 (PPI) settings are what, unobtainable) In your: AI STATE: Prepare for Attack, Attack, Incursion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Please, consider what I posted in regards to the AI state Changes, and all that it implies.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 25, 2003, 22:37: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It was not originally stated they were dummy queues but it was stated that nothing was added to the build queues, this is a pratical way of acheiving the stated assumption.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I decided to make the example more concrete by saying the 15th entry was the half way point as mentioned in the original hypothetical situation. The first fourteen entries are not dummies, they are normal construction_vehicles entries. But if I asked for 1 attack ship per 4 planets and at least 5 total the first time through the queue, and if no ships were lost and no planets colonized, then I still have 1 attack ship per 4 planets and at least 5 total the second time through the queue when I return to the Prepare for attack state. So nothing is added to the construction queue becuase I have already satisfied the construction rules. Thus the first 14 real construction_vehicle entries in the prepare for attack state do nothing the second time through the queue because the ships are already built. The first ship added to a construction queue the second time is thus the first one in the 15th entry, because of the first 15 entries only its PPI and MHAL have not been adressed yet.

In my experience, you do not get a second helping of ships from the first 14 queue entries. I have observed no ship multiplication from multiple passes through the queue.

[ June 28, 2003, 04:19: Message edited by: cybersol ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

I'm still working hard on making this no special racial trait AI. I watched a previous Version soundly trounce the Sallega, who were in the top 18 in AI death match 2. The Sallega expand increadibly well, but thier ship designs could probably be better.

Since then, I have been re-working the research and design files. I've changed so much now, that if I had saved the old revision I might have two different AI's.

After I wrap up the research and design files (hopefully for the Last time), I'll go back and re-work the construction files.

[ June 28, 2003, 04:26: Message edited by: cybersol ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

I am just starting work on this AI again after a two week vacation. The AI is currently trading blows with the Fazrah and continuing to undergo final ship design tweaks.

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

How exactly do you get the AI to put missiles on their ships?

Re: My AI Design Q&A
 

Enter the Weapon Family number from the Component File: in either the Majority Weapon Family Pick or the Secondary Weapon Family Pick that is located in (THAT) AI Folders Design file.
Then adjust the Comp Spaces Per to load your desired amount - This may take a little trial and error, but you will get the load you want http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

= = = = = = = = = = =
Reference se4 Terran Race

from se4 component data file
Name := Capital Ship Missile I
Description := Heavy duty missile with nuclear warhead.
Pic Num := 67
Tonnage Space Taken := 50
Tonnage Structure := 50
Cost Minerals := 400
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 80
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat\Drone
Supply Amount Used := 10
Restrictions := None
General Group := Weapons
Family := 2001
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Missile Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 0
Weapon Type := Seeking
Weapon Target := Ships\Planets
Weapon Damage At Rng := 60 60 60 60 60 60 60 60 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Weapon Damage Type := Normal
Weapon Reload Rate := 3
Weapon Display Type := Seeker
Weapon Display := 1
Weapon Modifier := 0
Weapon Sound := capshpms.wav
Weapon Family := 2 ( all weapons have a number, place this # in that AI's design file)
Weapon Seeker Speed := 5
Weapon Seeker Dmg Res := 30

- - -

to that AI's Design file loacated in its folder
Name := Attack Ship
Design Type := Attack Ship
Vehicle Type := Ship
Default Strategy := Optimal Firing Range
Size Minimum Tonnage := 20
Size Maximum Tonnage := 5000
Num Must Have At Least 1 Ability := 1
Must Have Ability 1 := Weapon
Minimum Speed := 4
Desired Speed := 6
Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 2 (if this was a 1 and not the 2 etc. then it would load Missiles)
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 25
Majority Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 1 := 1 (this will load Capital Ship Missiles)
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Shields Spaces Per One := 200
Armor Spaces Per One := 1200
Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 1200 (less will load more)
Majority Comp Ability := Weapon
Secondary Comp Spaces Per One := 500 (less will load more)
Secondary Comp Ability := Weapon
Num Misc Abilities := 11
Misc Ability 1 Name := Point-Defense
Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 400
Misc Ability 2 Name := Cloak Level
Misc Ability 2 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 3 Name := Quantum Reactor
Misc Ability 3 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 4 Name := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Misc Ability 4 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 5 Name := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Misc Ability 5 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 6 Name := Multiplex Tracking
Misc Ability 6 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 7 Name := Shield Regeneration
Misc Ability 7 Spaces Per One := 800
Misc Ability 8 Name := Emergency Resupply
Misc Ability 8 Spaces Per One := 800
Misc Ability 9 Name := Self-Destruct
Misc Ability 9 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 10 Name := Scanner Jammer
Misc Ability 10 Spaces Per One := 10000
Misc Ability 11 Name := Supply Storage
Misc Ability 11 Spaces Per One := 500

[ June 23, 2004, 19:13: Message edited by: JLS ]