Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">See, I think that's the kind of modding Geo was talking about avoiding.

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

Exactly right Loser. Q, I was suggesting a method to eliminate modding as a solution period. Of course your solution is very simple, but for the purposes of PBW play it would require something other than stock data files which is what I was trying to avoid. You can do it now by simply turning off the whole tech area, but some people think the economic facilities alone are enough of a reason to take the religious racial trait.

Geoschmo

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah. They rock.

Though if the Talisman were to be pulled, even those excellent facilities would not be worth the price one would pay for the whole Organic tech tree. (Mmmm... replicants... in tailer parks....)

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

no, i think the religious facilities are worth 1500 racial points on their own. and the talisman doesnt make sense. perharps maintenance-reducing components might do the religious comp trick?

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

You can certainly mod the Talisman to be weaker in some way. However, most games appear to use the base data files, which means the Talisman will dominate most games.

Gannging up on a Religious player does not work very well when 1/3 to 1/2 of the players are Religous. At least one of them will survive to get to the Talisman.

The relgious shrines are a nice help on the road to the Talisman. It is hard taking out systems that have pluses to damage and defense. The early game system bonuses give them a strong economy to defend with as they research to the Talisman.

How many widely played mods out there have a weakened form the the Talisman?

I created a Mod and made the Talisman act as 10KT armor so that it gets taken out right away without shields, or relatively soon if shields are stopping attacks. None of the players in that game took the Religious trait with that change. However, I also made some advanced traits cheaper so that lured them there.

At this point I will most likely only join games where the Mod reduces or eliminates the Talisman or Religous is turned off. I feel it is hard to design a race that is competitive with Religous without taking that trait. Organic races come close, but seekers are not a good counter as Point Defense can deal with them quite well. Ramming is hard gainst an enemy that hangs out at max range. Give the Religious player repulser beams and he will fling your ships away after he damges them, unless you use a bigger hull, which means you are to slow to catch them.

I have played a Religious race several times and really dominated and I have played against them several times and been really frustrated.

I think that Religious should be excluded from most PBW games until the base mode weakens the trait somehow.

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not sure I would. And, IMHO, a particularly offensive-prone player would lose a lot of the benefits by leaving his systems. Big deal with the event stuff---hardly anyone plays it in the games I've looked over. So, the best you are left with is added resource production if you lean toward an offensive game. (I'll confess I'm not a "student" or "expert" of the Religious trait, I've just played it a few times)

[ July 16, 2003, 19:18: Message edited by: Slynky ]

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It needs to be fixed in the unmodded game.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That has nothing to do with it. I still had some more to say, you just left prematurely.

[ July 16, 2003, 19:29: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

gee thanks fryon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif I never would have guessed that....

perhaps you can toss out one of your ideas that you have on it. :-p

Personally I think it should remain the same for the seiv game. As there are ways to deal with the unbalancing of the talisman by the modders and game setup.

SEV it should be resolved in concept before the game is released.

It is just one of those things that do not work. We all have learnt to live with the talisman.

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Players need to be less hung up on using unmodded games.

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

Only a small portion of those playing the game use mods (even on PBW, most games are unmodded). Using mods is not a problem, but mods are for different game styles and such. They should not be required to fix fundamental flaws in a game (such as the Talisman).

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

I disagree with you there.

The talisman concept in the stock mod may be flawed.

That is all.

The game itself is not flawed because of the talisman.

Playing the game under normal conditions it is not a problem.

But when you factor in fqm maps , changing the default systems to greater than 100 then yes it becomes a problem

but then your not playing stock. and your playing a modified Version of stock.

Simply put there is no way to fix it without creating other balance problems.

So why not leave it as is since we can deal with it.

This will most likely be the Last patch... Do we want effort spent in this area when we ourselves can change it ???

And there are other aspects of the game that should be looked at.

Unless of course you have a solution you would like to share with us that balances the talisman once and for all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

There are a lot of ways to balance the Talismans out. Make it a mount, make it not have 100% guaranteed to hit, have it make the ship it is on easier to hit, etc. That is what the beta testers are for, to test these things out before they go public.

And yes, the Talisman issue makes the stock game flawed, as does the DUCS/PPBs/APBs (though esp. the PPBs), mines, fighters, PDCs/missiles, armor, etc. There are a lot of problems that are not hard to fix and should have been fixed in a patch for the game a long, long time ago. If you do not agree with a particular balance fix, you can always go and change it back. But for the rest of us that appreciate efforts to balance the game, the changes will have been done already and not require extra modding to make it better. Again, modding is not for fixing balance problems, but for creating whole new styles of play (ie: Pirates and Nomads, Proportions, Adamant's physical/magical/organic races, sci-fi mods, etc.). And of course you will never get 100% agreeance on any balance fix. But, that is irrelevant. MM does not have to please everyone. The lack of any attempts at balance changes is IMO more displeasing overall than not having them fixed in the way you want them fixed.

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is an excellent point Tesco. When I think about the few games that I have had problems with a talisman player, they have all been games with something unusual involved. A denser then normal map like FQM that allows the player to get established quicker, or a high tech start. In a regular stock game you just need to find the player and attack him as soon as you find him really. Cause there the research thing becomes a big deal.

The ideal is when you catch them just as they get to talisman, becasue they are normally way behind in other tech areas and haven't got the talisman fully emplyed yet. You don't even need a gang then. You could do it by yourself.

Geoschmo

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Only you, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Only you, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am sorry for suggesting that MM operate as 90% of the industry that releases frequent update patches does in regards to those patches. Most games get frequent balance fixes in patches. Se4 has only had one or two of them, which just sucks.

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

I say, leave the Talisman the way it is. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But basically he had come to the realisation his original statement was an exageration, he is just too proud to admit it publicly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, it's not the only way, but it is the most effective. The Talisman is powerful, probably too much so. A single player can beat him but it takes healthy helpings of skill and aggressivness, and a little luck too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif There is no simple counter for it like there is for so many other things in the game. It takes a complete all around effort.

Geoschmo

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

I have seen and been a part of Talisman disscusions over the years I have been playing SE. I have also watched space empire discussion evolve amoung a group of friends that I play SEIV face to face. I won't forget that one time I said what do you need extra cargo space for and my friend agreed that the cargo faclity was useless. Well now that I have played more I find that the cargo Faclity is very useful. I have also found that the game is very well blanced. The talisman is not the uber weapon that a lot of people imply. It can be defeated in many ways. I have found also that for every advantage there is a counter to that advantage.
I would suggest that Fryon play 5 people in ten games each player would get to be the Talisman player alternatly and see what type of win stats Fryon could rack up.

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

Without the Talisman, the Deeply Religious tech tree is interesting but not up to being a racial tech equal to the others. Given the component size, and generally in conjunction with the decreased Aggressiveness that many Religious players and races have, it goes down pretty quickly in a fight and leaves that ship next to useless. If the talisman is replaced by some component that works as an enhanced combat sensor, then the Religious tree needs other additions. I would suggest some mix of "religious" weaponry: a converter (works as Allegiance Subverter, perhaps with the same weakness or one that works on the master computer), a superior weapon destroyer (some sort of "pacifist hippie" device..hee hee) or reload limiter, and maybe a wormhole-beam style weapon or tractor/repulser. That Deeply Religious comes with no special weapons is an inherent weakness in the trait, but it also does not give that player the option having to research that tech line, and instead focus on the more standard options.

That being said, I enjoy playing with the Religious trait, irrespective of the Talisman. I do like the Religious facilities, the Nature shrine being perhaps my favorite. I love watching all my planets' resource values go up 3% on the .1 turn of the year!! I think the Time Shrine should boost more than resource production in that system. Given its description, it should raise research and intel as well!

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

Gozra, I have played plenty of games, and I know the effects of the Talisman very well.

Can you honestly tell me that a situation in which 30 ships armed with Talismans (I forget the size of the ships) managed to defeat over 200 max-tech Dreadnoughts with only 5 losses is a well-balanced system?

[ July 18, 2003, 22:36: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

One possible 'mod' of the Talisman is to make it really HUGE (100kt or more) and expensive and make it an 'area' effect device rather than only the ship it's on. Do the facility combat modifers work on components? For a whole fleet? In other words, a 'portable' death shrine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif That would make the 'Talisman' essentially area effect ECM/ECCM. This would let you have some advantages, but balanced with a vulnerability (if the enemy gets to that one ship and poofs it, you're advantage is gone.)

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I made the suggestion to increase size and/or cost of the talisman several times but some people apparently want a change of the standard SE IV game for reasons I never really understood (which is certainly my problem). I would prefer to leave the talisman as it is.
Facility abilities as the death shrine abilities will not work on components (with few exceptions). If this could be changed it would open up huge new modding possibilities.

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

*lightbulb* why cant the talisman be the same as the Neural Net Computer, but cheaper, smaller and racial??

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes they do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes they do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I can't believe that I did not see this. You are right the death shrine ability seems to work on components. Not my day today. However on the bright side this opens up some very interesting possibilities for new components. Thank you for correcting me Fyron.

[ July 19, 2003, 13:31: Message edited by: Q ]

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes they do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I can't believe that I did not see this. You are right the death shrine ability seems to work on components. Not my day today. However on the bright side this opens up some very interesting possibilities for new components. Thank you for correcting me Fyron.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually you are both sort of right. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif The Death Shrine ability apparently works, but it is one of the few exceptions. It would be very nice if every facility ability would work on a componernt and vice versa.

Geoschmo

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

noone notice my idea? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

But neural combat net (or whatever is the name ) is not a very useful tech. - if you get experience from training facilities, most likely all you ships in the fleet will have same level. If it is from battle, that is very rare in SEIV, you need a very tough ships that survives several battles and killed a lot of enemy ships on the way. That may work in some other game, but SEIV is not about an invincible Enterprise or Avenger, but about big fleets with no regards to any individual ship survivor.

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

it could come with the very first tech, be only 10kT large and cost 1/2 as much. Then their fleets would have 45% experience when you'd have 20%. Combat experience is slow, but when you gain experience for EVERY SHOT DONE in combat, well, it moves fast. You just need some good weapons and good sensors. Thinking about it, you'd just need 125% agg, berz and sensors 1 to be very powerful early on.

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

I am in a game right now where a player claims to have 200+ experience points. Two other players in the game have the talisman. I chose the middle route and I am the largest player in the game. So far in the titanic struggle everyone is holding their own. Ad for fryon's example of 30 to 200 well I have found your tactics can have a lot to do with how battles turn out also formations who fires first etc. I have found in this game that it is uppredictable and balanced. And SEIV is set up so that you can balance it in a multiplayer game very easily. I will also point out that a great deal of winning a game is dependent on starting position and surrounding systems. Give me a good start position and you a bad one and you can have the talisman.

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

I think experience go up only when you kill enemy, not when you shot and hit !

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Only you, right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am sorry for suggesting that MM operate as 90% of the industry that releases frequent update patches does in regards to those patches. Most games get frequent balance fixes in patches. Se4 has only had one or two of them, which just sucks.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That is not true ! Let see what play balance issues have been addresed in patches as I remember: missile speed, APB damage, ionic dispersor, allegiance subverter, organic armor, mines, range mounts for WP and satellites, order of firing. Might be many more.

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

Gozra, I think experience is limited to 50 points per ship and 50 per fleet...

Oleg, almost all of those are not balance changes, but hardcode bug fixes. Balance changes are tweaking some values in the data files. Make Phased - Energy Weapons cost more, for example. Only missile speed, APB damage (wasn't it PPB damage, not APB?) and range mounts qualify as balance fixes. So, 3 instead of 1 or 2. Same difference. But either way, they are relatively minor changes, and most of the important balance issues have not been addressed.

[ July 21, 2003, 19:57: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

AS vs. MC.

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

Again, that is a hardcode change, not a simple balance change. The point that balance changes are few and far between is still quite valid.

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

Most games get balance changes? I don't play many other games, so I will have to accept this contention at face value Fyron. But most games do not allow the players to make simple data file changes and tweak the balance to their hearts content the way that SEIV does. So one could make a valid point that Malfador has made all of the balance changes you want, by giving you the tools to do it yourself.

Claiming that most people don't play mods is completely irrelevant. Most people that buy a game don't even bother to download patches for them. What does that prove?

The simple fact is that balance is subjective. No, Malfador doesn't have to make everyone happy. It wouldn't even be possible even if they wanted to. But if the result of a change is a just a different group of unhappy people what's the point of the change? Especially when you consider anyone that is unhappy with it in the first place can change it themselves.

But I will tell you again what I have told you before. A lot of things could be changed and would be improvments, I will totally agree with that. But if you have something like that you'd like to see changed, whining about it in the forum isn't going to help. Send the suggestion to Malfador. Not just a "balance this" gripe, but actually do the change yourself and do the real work and playtest it. Send your playtest results to Malfador along with comments from the players involved in your playtests, if there are any.

Make a clear and convinvcing case for a "simple" change and I would be suprised if it didn't get done. Especially if you can hand him the text and all he has to do is proofread it and paste it into the data files. It worked for you before on the formations problem didn't it?

Of course whining is a lot easier.

Geoschmo

[ July 21, 2003, 20:52: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Like we say down here, "You can't please the Greeks and the Trojans."

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

"Again, that is a hardcode change, not a simple balance change. The point that balance changes are few and far between is still quite valid. "

No, it was a balance change that required hardcode doing. Same with the ID vs shields; I doubt it was a bug that made it skip shields, since other "kills x" weapons do.

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Please reread my statement. Games that get frequent patches (as SE4 does) generally get frequent balance fixes.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have seen no whining here Geo.

P-D:
AS vs MC was a bug. It was not supposed to convert ships with a damaged MC, but it did. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

From History.txt:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Note how it says "Fixed" and not "Changed"? This shows that it was meant to fail against ships with a damaged MC.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That one was a balance change. So that makes 4. Still not very many.

[ July 21, 2003, 22:21: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

SEIV is as blanced a game as any. The ablity to modifify the starting set up allowes players of varying ablity to play fairly equally. (See set up page on PBW for Cluster command) There are way to many other variables in SEIV to say that this or that racial trait allows someone to win more often. We have no stastical data to base these statements on. I do have a gut feeling that this game from the outset has more balance than most games.

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">They don't. Most GOOD multiplayer games, however, do receive additional balancing tweaks after release.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If he was talking about single player games, yes, it would be. But making a mod has an impact on the number of people you can play against, so it is an important consideration. Decreasing the pool of available players can lead to stagnation.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That most people aren't hardcore gamers.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not strictly true, I think it is quantifiable to a point. However, MM doesn't track multiplayer games so it doesn't collect the data it would need make an informed decision on balance tweaks. However, some of the balance issues are big enough that I'm surprised they haven't been addressed.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Art for art's sake, maybe? The game isn't perfectly balanced, though , so a lot of the choices that you appear to have aren't valid (in a competitive game). Making more choices available makes the game more robust, and therefore "better". If the happiness quotient stays the same, as you argue, then why not strive for perfection?

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why not? Frankly because there is no incentive for Malfador as a business to strive for perfection. I can't deny perfection as a noble goal. However, I think giving players the tools to make their own view of perfection is a perfectly acceptable method of acchieving that goal.

When you get down to it Malfador is a business. If the game was so hopelessly flawed that I did not feel I had gotten my money's worth out of it I could totally agree with you and even Fyron. But frankly I have gotten much more then I could or should expect to get out of a game I paid 40 bucks for. Even 80 if you count the Gold Version.

If something about the game bothers me enough I try to make a case to have it changed. Either it does or it doesn't get changed. Fortuntly at least for me the flaws I see with SEIV are not game stoppers. Even parts that are as goobered up as intel and mines are playable. They just aren't as deep as I would like. The weapon balance issue I see as such a non-issue. Mainly because I don't think it's that bad, and also because it's so user customizable.

The kind of changes I would like to see done are more fundamental then could be done in a simple balance tweak. A lot are more extensive then could be expected even in a patch. They require a new Version entirely. So for me it's more of a priority that Malfador start on SE5 then get tied up on an endless, and ultimatly futile search for perfection.

You say it's more of a factor for multiplayer games. I am sorry I don't get this at all. For me playing against a human isn't at all about what weapons I choose, but about the tactics and execution, building an empire, and then watching it get destroyed, or destroying my enemies if I am able. To me it's almost irrelevant what weapons are used.

I guess I have a little brain cause for me it's all I can do to maintain my empire at it's peak. If I had to think too hard to decide what guns were best to put on my ships... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

But hey, here's an idea!

Why don't you and Fyron take it upon yourself to acchieve the perfection? Make the mythical "Balance Mod" that so many have started, and noone has finished. Get suggestions from the forum, make the changes, and play test them thouroughly. Heck, I even have some suggestions and will help play test it. But I don't have the time or energy to lead the effort.

Keep it simple though. Don't get off track on new ideas. Just deal with the exsisting weapons, find the problems, suggest and implement simple changes solutions. "Small moves Ellie." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif No hard code changes. Just stuff that we can change ourselves in the data files and test. And try to form a consensus opinion on everything. If a comromise can't be reached, no change is better then a bad one.

Once you have it ready we can go to Aaron and try with all our might to encourage him to implement them in the next patch lock stock and barrel. That is why I say keep it simple. The simpeler the better. The less possibility for conflicts with other parts of the game the better the chances he will do what we ask.

Worst case he won't add them and you will have what could end up being the standard balance mod for Se4. Combine it with TDM for improved AI and we might be that much closer to what we all think this game can be.

I am not saying "Put up or shut up." because you are free to do nothing and say anything you want. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But people take you more seriously if you put some action behind your words.

Geoschmo

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

Geoschmo,

is it me or do you lately mold your sentences into bullets? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Anyway, nicely put about the mod but such a mod would be impossible to make. Everybody has different ideas of game balance. What you think is balanced could tick me off and vice versa. But making a mod to balance out the major points of discussion like the talisman should be possible.

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

Adamant already has a lot of balance fixes... I have put up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif But a balance mod is not a bad idea. Maybe for after camping trip...

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Eh? I don't understand. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, I know. But if I recall correctly it also has a lot of stuff that isn't strictly balance oriented, but is new ideas.

I wasn't trying to say noone had ever added certain balance tweaks to their mods. Certainly many have. But the idea of a balance mod is that it could be inserted into the stock files with little or no unintedded consequences, or at the very least be a mod standard such as the TDM mod. and thus get very wide play in the community. Such a focused scope mod has been attempted before, but never completed.

Geoschmo

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

Actually, people mostly seemed to agree with the changes I put in my balance mod. I just never posted a completed Version, but most of the hard stuff was figured out. I should probably take the time to finish it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

PvK

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Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

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Geo's point about compatiblility is a good one:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Since you mostly balanced the empire setup Characteristic and Trait costs, would this have an impact on modded races?

What else is important to consider? For example, would changing the size of a component mess with how an ai designs ships?

I suspect for components, messing with the tech tree and comp sizes would be a no-no. Anything else?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, yes you should http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

AI races, even the included ones, would be affected by a mod which only changes the empire creation costs.

All empires designed with the old point system would be likely to come out slightly differently with a new point system. Except for 5000-point empires, though, they might tend to come out better balanced than before, because the AI selects abilities until it runs out of points (or out of things on its shopping list).

AI empires which are set to capitalize on underpriced advantages in the unmodded game won't get to have as many of them, while AI empires designed to use overpriced advantages will get more of them, until they run out of things they are programmed to try to get, at which point they'll just lose their extra points.

Changing component sizes would affect AI designs. Not necessarily for the worse, though.

I think the main point of a balance mod is to help PBW games between humans, however - the AI impact isn't particularly important, it seems to me.

PvK

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The objective I stated was to come up with a balance mod general enough to have a chance of being implemented by Malfador into the stock game. So AI performance is quite important. Effect on exsisting mods and custom AI's should be considered, but not be a critical issue. If it becomes the stock they can be adjusted accordingly after the fact by the authors or others. But the stock AI's will have to be adjusted as part of the blance mod itself if any changes are made that affect them.

I am not saying any balance mod has to meet these objectives, but if it doesn't it won't have much of a shot of becoming part of the stock game.

Geoschmo

[ July 22, 2003, 18:55: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bad explaining on my part. What i meant was that it was a nice, to the point, witty remark.

edit: zpellinks

[ July 22, 2003, 22:54: Message edited by: minipol ]