Re: The next patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think it's an overstatement at all. I think it's very clear that in the long term, nothing will pay off as much as building clams. You have a limited set of three water queens that can summon their own troops, and the rest of the uses for large numbers of water gems only have effects for a few turns.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Only one of the water queens is amphibious, and abominations are astral summons, not water.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And that's part of the problem. Atlantis has no summonable or tough troops that can come onto land. The mother guard are nice, but its too expensive to haul around a lot of them.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">On land? I suppose they could go for enliven statues, but those aren't particularly impressive either.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The cost of astral pearls produced by clams is effectively 0 after 20 turns.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Like a 250 hitpoint vampire queen with immunity to every element, a 0.004% chance of MR spells effecting it, and multiple damage shields you mean? I suppose one could try and use mandragoras, but their sleep vines aren't particularly likely take effect and the fire shield will make mincemeat of them.

[ April 10, 2004, 16:55: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: The next patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is not something, I'm very familar with, as I have yet to get to the "uber-late" game mechanics in any of the MP games I am participating.

But my feeling is, that the only way to properly defeat an opponent's SC, is with your own SC... SC's are specifically designed to make mince meat of hordes of troops... summons or not.

The fact that she's undead, means there are weapons out there that do x3 AP damage to her... so you need somebody who can take and give a few hits, but it doesn't seem so hard to achieve...

But maybe I'm missing something?

Re: The next patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure, but you then need to get your SC's into the same place as her, which can be difficult with something so mobile and stealthy.

Re: The next patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure, but you then need to get your SC's into the same place as her, which can be difficult with something so mobile and stealthy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Her stealth is +0... which is not very scary. Just set all your provinces in range to 10, and you at least know where she is... obviously, she'll obliterate said defenders, but if she can't hide, then she will be a victim to your SC.

That is just a matter of being the better player... and/or being lucky.

She wants to stay in positive dominion, and doesn't want to be confronted in general... so that makes her weak.

Yes, this is all theoretical... I'm not an MP badass. (Though I wish I was!)

Re: The next patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That can be a surprisingly trivial exercise.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You don't have to find the VQ. Just force it to come to you.

Re: The next patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That can be a surprisingly trivial exercise.

Quote:

Sun Tzu, "Art of War" If we wish to fight, the enemy can be forced to an engagement even though he be sheltered behind a high rampart and a deep ditch. All we need do is attack some other place that he will be obliged to relieve.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You don't have to find the VQ. Just force it to come to you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">On the OFFENSIVE I think that VQ's are as strong as strong can be. If you let them dictate how it'd gonna be, then you've already lost.

However, if you force them to react to you, then they're no more than expensive scouts... *ouch* that guy had a flambeau! C'est la vie.

Re: The next patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That can be a surprisingly trivial exercise.

Quote:

Sun Tzu, "Art of War" If we wish to fight, the enemy can be forced to an engagement even though he be sheltered behind a high rampart and a deep ditch. All we need do is attack some other place that he will be obliged to relieve.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You don't have to find the VQ. Just force it to come to you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">On the OFFENSIVE I think that VQ's are as strong as strong can be. If you let them dictate how it'd gonna be, then you've already lost.

However, if you force them to react to you, then they're no more than expensive scouts... *ouch* that guy had a flambeau! C'est la vie. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually VQ is stronger on defense than on offense. That's because on defense she tend to fight in higher friendly dominion, and that makes her stronger (in addition to her immortality in friendly dominion of course). While on offense you more often than not press into hostile territory, especially if your opponent is aware what he is dealing with and has build temple/preaching priests everywhere along your borders.

I had a game where me and Truper come to virtual stalemate for about 20 turns, despite intense fighting and heavy casaulties. We both were using VQs and we both had to be very carefull about our armies and our pretenders, dominion-wise. I won the war eventually, but this was mostly because I managed to outmanerved my opponent and pushed my dominion deeper and deeper into his territory, as well as inflicting more losses on him than he did on me. The "attack with dominion" was performed though combination of temples, preachers, castles protecting most important temples, and my assasin prophet preaching and spreading dominion in most critical places deep behind enemy lines. Meanwhile it was mostly war of attrition, since any strong army than any of us could move forward could be easely wiped out by minimal forces lead by fully decked enemy VQ.

[ April 11, 2004, 07:39: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]