Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

The problem is they are twice as expensive as chariots, only compounding the disparity.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Mr Trollman,

How about you set up a battle and run it? So far, everyone who has tried to fight a vanjarl + 25 van army has demonstrated they are overpowered. Please don't talk about your theories. Let's see some evidence. Feel free to utilize your level 2 AOE spells because I think that is quite reasonable. How about using Arcoscephale MA (Old Kingdom)? They have both elephant tramplers and chariots for you to choose, plus a wide variety of magic for your level 2 AOE's.

The pattern here has been that after people try testbeds, they come around to seeing that vans are overpowered.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I would like to see FrankTrollman do a test as well. He has an incredible grasp of how magic works in Dom3, or atleast he seems to in the nooby game where he was pwning everyone.

I think if there is a person that can find a definate magical way to counter a heim in the early part of the game, it would be FrankTrollman.

Midgard (LE Vanheim)
 

True. I think all people are complaining mostly about Helheim and MA Vanheim. I would like to add, that even if EA Vanheim and Helheim would be toned down, IMHO it's important that these changes would not affect Midgard. (LE Vanheim)

Midgard is significantly weaker than Helheim or MA Vanheim. Their mages are much worse on the battlefield(they don't have neither air 3 van commanders, not earth 2-4 dwarves), they don't have flying sacred valkiries, and all other Midgard's national troops are relatively weak for the LA and their prices and stats, comparable to other nations. Plus because other nations have generally much better national troops in LA than in EA/MA, the advantage of van's sacred is correspondently smaller.

So personally I am ok with increasing price of sacred for Helheim and ME Vanheim a bit, but I would strongly vote against doing the same for Midgard. Notice that all people on this threat only complain about Helheim and ME Vanheim, not Midgard. If some sort of nerf will happen, it would be sad if Midgard would also be nerfed just because they also have "van" troops, despite the fact that this nation it doesn't deserve it.

Re: Midgard (LE Vanheim)
 

A nation that comes as part of the basic game is not optional, except in single player, where game balance is virtually irrelevant.

Re: Midgard (LE Vanheim)
 

I agree with you, Corwin. Although Vanheim MA vans need to be more expensive, I do not think Midgard LA vans merit the same treatment. You leave out one of the most important reasons why Vanheim MA vans are underpriced compared to Midgard LA - Midgard vans are limited to capital only production. I actually don't mind seeing viable Vanheim MA double bless rush strategies. However, I think there needs to be a penalty for gambling on the double bless rush. Since you can mass produce Vanheim MA vans from multiple provinces then choose the location for the battle with glamour, there is no down side to the rush at the current price point for middle age vans. They need to be more expensive so that if you can catch the Vanheim player and kill the van army, that player will be devastated. Since they can rebuild from all over, taking the capital isn't a viable response.

I think the solution is to increase the resource cost of Vanheim MA vans.
The spear wielding hirdman has a spear, helmet, chain mail hauberk, and shield for 20 resources.
The valkyrie has a spear, cap, chain mail cuirass, and shield for 15 resources. This is a 25% lower resource cost for pretty much similar gear. I'm okay with that though because valkyries are limited to capital-only production.
The van has a light lance, cap, chain mail cuirass, shield, javelin, and horse for 16 resources. This makes no sense!!! Here's a unit that has a horse, a lance, and a javelin -- much more than a valkyrie for only 1 more resource and for 4 LESS than the hirdman. I think this should be bumped up to 32 resources.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Inigo,

Why not just have MA Vanheim Vans limited to capitol-only ?
To me it'll be sufficient to rebalance MA Vanheim.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

That seem really more theory than practice : producing 3-5 Vans/turn the *heims can field 40 vans or HH from turn 10 or so, so really very few magic has been researched by anyone. Maybe one path to 3 and another to 1, 2 at best..

Then you have tramplers, that kills mirror images, and the Vans "are no longer effectively immune to swords or bows". But you still have to find something able to overcome 24 def (swords), and a way to protect your archers from 39-speed charges. What can hit 24-def units and is available turn 10-15 ? Nothing...

Even then you're talking of "Vanir lines". But Vans don't line up, usually I use 6-Vans groups quite largely spread out, using map borders, with groups set to attack archers and rear. With their amazing speed, they are quite rarely, if ever, grouped, and will just avoid a good part of enemmy army before wreaking havoc on the rear. Big AoE Evocs, even if available will usually kill more friendlies than Vanir in such a configuration.

Lastly noone in the "non-overpowered" side ever mentioned AFAIK that Vanheim *has* magic, and potent one ! Van-leaders all can banish skellspam easily, and as soona s they hit Evo-2 Shockwave is awfully effective with Vanjarls, and I don't even mention the obvious LB, then OL and TS !

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

yep, in my test they do banish skels, but NOT easily...
more dangerous that Vans have little 3E dwarves for Bladewind http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Sure, I even forgot to mention it ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif