Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

I do not really get this one. IMHO this is one of their weak points, but I guess you are thinking of bee-lining const 4 then 6 for skulls and lanterns? That would take quite a while unless you use a sagy pretender (but that is probably a good idea if you want any research done with these guys).

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

No,

Hinnom doesn't have to build a lab to build a mage. So you stick a fort in a hill or forest. Costs you 800.

You then turn around and move him to a location with no population with a fort/lab so he can research.

It isn't the lack of the cost, although that helps - but the faster scale up is invaluable. In the right terrains you just drop a fort, next turn you have mage support.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

I know this is the case, but that requires the right terrain, as you mention, and they still have an awful research-to-gold ratio. And even with good scales, I would think that money would be an issue, if you want to max recruitment of expensive chariots while building forts and recruiting mages. Unless, of coures, you have a vast area of independent farmland to expand into, but that just happens so rarely to me :).

I agree that they are very powerful, and perhaps one of the more straight-forward nations (in some areas), but I do not think they are "over-powered" to the extend that they should be banned. Also, being able to steamroll a bunch of normal AIs is not really the test for over-powerment imo. I would rather hear how people have fared in MP.

I have not had a chance to play them pre-nerf, but I can see how that was way too powerful...

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Well JR

I took a look at them again - because of our upcoming game.

Try this - make a two player game, map albatha. Try stopping Hinnom as EA Arco. or EA Tir. With fixed starting positions, after turn 3 or so - Hinnom is only prevented by taking (turn number) territories per game turn by geography.

While the death dominion of LA ermor may make you choose to attack elsewhere just because you get so little income from it - and the water terrain of LA-Atlantis may stop you - neither of these nations would be in a position of stopping you from conquering anyone else.

The game becomes - who can *not* lose to hinnom.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

OK, I just chose Hinnom, because I had a little experience with them and like their flavor. I will switch to another nation for our MP game :)

Lets continue this discussion in the MP game forum.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Hmmmm, at the risk of sounding pedantic, did you read the guide that starts this thread? Gold is not an issue if you manage this right, nor is terrain in the vast majority of cases because you can expand insanely fast with modestly priced expansion forces. That means your income climbs much faster than your expenses and you can capture whatever territory you want. FWIW, my experience is not against the AI, and my assertion that you have very strong research is empirically proven.

Ammi are 125 gold for 5 rp (in magic 1) is far from awful, that's actually very good. Even if you manage to scrounge up a better research mage the cost of a lab + temple = another castle, so Hinnom is instantly cranking out twice as many mages as anybody using holy mages. About 60% more than anybody with non-holy mages. In the MP game I based this guide on I just checked where I was at on turn 24 - tied for the research lead with a few SCs fully kitted, 22 blood hunters pulling in about 150 slaves per turn, and cranking out bloodstones. That's quite a lot of forgings (sanguine rods, SC gear, bloodstones) along with a large chunk of bloodhunters for this stage of the game, yet I'm still one of the research leaders. Granted, this is just one game, but I think it's a better illustration than rolling over the AI.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

That is is indeed a better illustration, but also, that game was pre-nerf iirc. If it is the consensus of the community that they are still too powerful for MP I just hope they get nerfed additionally either in an official patch or in the next CBM. To me, it is just a too fun nation to be completely left out...

Btw I am a great fan of your guides and writing in general - even if you have to risk sounding pedantic at times ;)

PS In my limited knowledge, Hinnom is not the only nation that can pull the no-lab mage building of. One of the Marignon's can as well, right?

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

There are a few - MA Jotun for instance.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Yeah, LA Marginon, chartmaker, however those mages are just used to be bought to make a lab since they don't require one for themselves and they are very bad. The real power is in Goetic Masters.

Sauro can do that also with Soothsayers and it's far better for them since they don't need a lab for mages you're gonna build like Marginon.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Ah yes, I was trying to address the question of why I thought Hinnom had strong research which I don't think the nerf impacted other than possibly indirectly due to potentially less gold being available for mages. At any rate, I think it's pretty clear that Hinnom should be one of the research leaders due to having reasonably efficient research mages while cranking out twice as many as most comparable sized nations. There are a few other nations that have mages recruitable without a lab, but as far as I can think of right now the only one which is comparable is MA T'ien Ch'i's Minister of Magic (which I highlight as a very strong research engine in my MA TC guide). Most of the other mages which can be recruited without a lab you don't really want to recruit even for research if a lab is available, there's just better options available.