Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Since squirrel reported it here, I've tested it many many times.
A limit which can be exceeded isn't really a limit is it?

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Deleting all messages will not return the contents of the 21st.

Also, there are plenty of display issues in dom3. It was not immediately clear that just because display stopped at 20 meant the actual number of messages sent was capped at 20. (For example: all of income, army size, and dominion have a maximum display value in the score graphs. Those values can be exceeded, but the scoregraph will flatline at that maximum).

Nor is deleting the contents the expected output in such a case - the expected output would be a return of the sent objects to the location from which they came (lab, treasury, etc..), and the game telling you that no more messages can be sent.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

The reason it's not on the bug list is probably because everyone it happens to shrugs, learns their lesson, and resolves never to do it again instead of thinking to post about it. That was certainly how I handled finding out about the message limit.

And as Gandalf said, the message counter not incrementing tipped me off to it being fishy, so I went and tested it before submitting my turn. Again, never occurred to me that it was a severe bug, just another case of the GUI sucking.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

It might also not be on the bug list because some people have years of experience with Johan and Kristoffer. Some things are "it works the way I have it working". And pushing the opinion that its bugged is not productive. In fact, quite the opposite. On the other hand, making it a wishlist item and requesting a change has been known to be effective.

But its probably moot anyway with the new project they are working on so continue as you wish.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Did anybody notice Grudge just quit?

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Hopefully not.
Just quitting a game is one of the few things that create a reputation that does follow you from game to game without anyone arguing that it shouldnt. There are multiple things that could be done if someone wants out of a game.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

What do you subscribe to, the Nelson School of computer programming? (You found the 'screw you' feature, HA HA!) In what world is the described behavior 'intended' or 'acceptable'?

I'm sorry, I really don't understand the 'its not a bug' camp. I accept shoddy UI despite it being for a game that costs quite a bit of money despite its age, but this type of program behavior should be considered unacceptable in a commercial product. But this is not just bad UI - bad UI is it being unintuitive on how to get the program to perform a particular action; it is not being misled that you've performed a specific action when in reality something totally different and unannounced had occurred.

Proper behavior in this case would just to stop you from sending a 21st message. Period. Anything else is a bug.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Well, I think that the game eating stuff that it never sends is certainly buggy. I'd certainly say though if you sent more than 20 messages ssuming that the display no longer increasing after 20 was only a display issue that's your own fault.
If that wasn't the case then I think it's better to have a rollback than to get on with the game where one team is hit by a nasty bug. I personally hate rollbacks though, and if there is any way to recompensate for it in another way (i.e. a third party could check the messages and every team could send 1/4 of the missing money to you) this would be actually better.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

My two cents- i agree with what GB said. and i think this game just needs to end. since i have had no sub yet, i've been playing my turns anyways, but at this point, it needs to be shut down. i will not be subbmitting any further turns, and i urge you all to just drop the game before people get angry.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Yeah me too FL.

I appreciate the good advice Gandolph but I think i'll take my chances that my 'reputation' will stay intact if I quit this game. Everyone who has played with me or knows me has seen me fight on with Guerrila warfare after my last territory is gone, and it takes 2 to 3 small armies to pin me down. I don't quit games that are being played,

If not....I can always direct them to this thread, where the Titans and the Gods decided to do battle, but instead squabbled over points of the game that don't need to be argued over.

What the heck do you guys mean "you should have known about the 'bug' that's NOT a bug because some know about it. And they shrug their shoulders and go on"?


IF, it was SP you would already have written a report (or whatever you do) and started the game over after perhaps testing it.

Thank you Stagger for noticing my post that I'm sure was dismissed by the rest of the group as I am a mere mortal and not one of the 'Titans', and as I listen more and more to the rhetoric about this... the more I am determined to not be caught up in it.

I will not let my team or my Captain down as I will wait until a sub is found, lets just find it quick please.

I will use a phrase from Sports Center for you US players and one that will make no sense to our brothers in other parts of the world.....C'MON MAN!!!!!

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I hope you are not directing this at me. Because my dislike of the rollback has nothing to do with wanting to win (actually I am the least competitive person in the entire world). It does, however, have everything to do with having an irrational hatred of rollbacks having seen the drama and issues they create in almost every game that they're given in.

I don't think anyone else is complaining about a rollback because they want to win either. Rollbacks are just bad business.


Eh? Sure, we've complained about losing luck events, but I don't see how that's relevant. We have never asked for a rollback because a rollback removed a very nice lucky event, or destroyed one of our really nice units. Dr P, for example, on the first rollback had a particularly good commander diseased by rain of toads which didn't affect it the first time around. I guess I just don't understand what this is about.


And for the record, I too have been significantly losing interest in this game, due in no small part to the rollbacks :P

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

If you reread the post I just sent I think you will see that I am NOT singling out anyone. I am just disappointed that all this we are going thru goes on at the level of play that you super vets play at.

It doesn't go on in the lower games for the most part, but we don't know all the ins and outs like you guys do.

I think everyone is losing interest for one reason or another and I feel sorry for Sept and all those who worked so hard to put this together. But if you look back at this game we have had defections from some pretty heavy hitters as well as some lower on the totem pole.

Why....No idea, unless its the stress of the captains having to make sure we actually do listen to them and do amount of work put in each turn. And then have to roll it back.

I like my team and for the most part am in other games with each of them. I just don't like all the bickering between players as I also play with a bunch of them and we have good relationships which I will not allow to be torn apart because of a game I really don't understand. ALL I WANTED TO DO WAS LEARN ABOUT THIS GAME, I already know how to B**** about things.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I also think we are devoting far too much verbiage to this. Since it's clear that we're not going to have a rollback (thank G-d), we can move on.

And since we're here to learn about the game, we've learned: do not send more than 20 things to any player in any turn, or the excess will be lost. Coordinate this among teammates as needed.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I can see where this might have caught some people off guard. If you dont use messaging in solo games, and it rarely comes up in such numbers in blitz MP games. But learning MP is at least in part this games initial descript.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Regarding any use of exploits, I doubt and would hope that no one has engaged in this sort of behaviour (stuff labs, etc). If winning is that important to you, hey you've got other issues going on, whether I've posted this or not.

The primary focus of this game is learning. Noobs learning by playing alongside of and against more experienced players. Winning is good but hey I just want to have fun, and frankly I have been having great fun and learning a great deal. Let's not let the lust for victory get the best of us or complain about possible bugs that may well be beyond our control.

I would call upon everyone to not act hastily and to honour the spirit of Baalz's pledge that you play till the end or at least stay in till a replacement can be found for you or your team concedes, dom3 bug or no.

If it were a server issue, that is a different story and we have tried to address them when they have occured.

We have completed the first stage in the game (expansion and conquering of the AI). The second stage is really only now beginning and promises to be the most fun and doubtless the most contentious part of the game. Teams will either die or concede at this point on.

I don't think it justifiable to call the game a draw over something that may or may not be a bug or limitation in Dom3, known or unknown. It is certainly not something I planned on or can really deal with. If it were a server issue or cheating, that is a different story. But failing that one team or another will have to be declared victor in this game in the end.

I have offered a poll of the players, that is the only fair thing I can think of doing. The team or player in question may say, well that is not fair, the truth is there are 16 players in the game and three other teams, we must let everyone decide.

Failing that, if a neutral expert on Dom3 bugs is available and willing to examine the .trn and last turns .2h files and reach a judgement I will allow this as well.

Hell, I'd even give gold to the team if I though it might stop the grumbling (rightly or wrongly, deservedly or not).

Let's keep our discussion constructive. If team ACGHHS simply refuses to continue or let this thing go and really wants to concede over such a thing, or won't agree to the above 2 measures, then there will be no rollback and the game will continue till the victory conditions as stated are met.

I may delay the current turn at my discretion and depending upon the response I receive from what I have stated. In the meantime, as for me, I'm checking in on my team's forum and playing my turn as usual just in case.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Huh? As far as I know, grudgebringer is the only one who was talking about resigning. Is team ACGHHS seriously considering resigning over this rollback discussion?

Grudge - I didn't mean the post, I just meant the sentiments.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Apparently, Yes, I've received a concession PM from Chris on behalf of his team. That is why I have posted this last message. I am asking team ACGHHS to consider my last post above/reconsider and send me a confirmation. Once I receive a confirmation, it will be final. I have provided and done all that I can do in the above post.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Rdonj,

NO, I wasn't directing the post at you or anybody specifically for that matter.

It just seems that for the few hours I have to play this game and all the time it takes to do these turns, that one little mistake amonst players of this caliber can mean complete chaos for you and your team.

It is that chaos that has seemed to make this game a chore from all sides.

You know, I couldn't tell you off the top of my head who is on who's team and who has quit for one reason or another.

Dr. P, thank you for pointing out that I really have learned something valuble (besides what Chris and Squirrel have taught me about micro management and what it can do) to take with me into other games.

Thanks Sept for all the hard work, I hate to see your plans go awry because of a game.

Maybe it will become less tedious once we have moved on, I know it will for me.

Thanks agian to all:up:

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I meant SOME of the sentiments. Any of the sentiments. Anyway, it is kind of pointless for me to be quibbling over such minutia, I am afraid that is a habit of mine.


So, what's the state of things? If chris' team quits, are we going to set them AI and keep playing? Or are we just declaring the game over? This game just keeps losing credibility with every post :(

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

This is the situation as it stands:

Chris says that his team will likely not want to play on unless a rollback is done.

I have said, as admin I cannot countenance another rollback (espcially since we've just gone through one) unless their is a server error and confirmation from Gandalf, evidence of cheating, or other serious issue that I as admin and Gandalf as host and server admin have control over.

If a team or player has breached a built-in messaging limit in the game that has caused them to lose gold or items or a bug has occured (perhaps because of player actions) that is inherant in the game that is known about and that we have no control over I cannot order a rollback without all players consent.

I am going to open a poll on the subject on our team forums, I encourage all to vote. If team ACGHHS wants to bring in an expert to examine files to determine whether the limit has been breached that is fine, unless I hear from someone very high up that this justifies that we immediately do a rollback without all players consent, we go with what the everyone in the game wants to do via majority vote.

Gandalf is in agreement with me on this issue.

I will extend the current turn if necessary to allow all an opportunity to vote.

That's all I can do people. The decision rests with you all. Regardless of the outcome of the vote, the victory conditions as stated still apply. Last team standing who has not been defeated or otherwise concedes wins the game. Plain and simple.

Poll is opening now! :)

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Another 14 hours has been added to the current turn timer to allow for voting and any turn submissions.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Not exactly. Not one played voted to continue.

I do not understand your statement. Neither of those conditions are true. The bug is controllable. The only person that claimed to have some idea of the bug was DrP and he was consistently wrong on the details. I really don't understand what you're asking me to accomplish here. What does "higher up" entail - anyone that is an acknowledged veteran of the game?

As I've seen the turns, anyone that examines the turns will conclude that the game did in fact eat items. But fine, I'll go see if I can trouble a vet to verify what squirrel has said, and that he thinks its worth a rollback. I do think it should be a matter of honor that squirrel doesn't lie, but.. ok.
:)[/quote]

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Chris asked me kindly to have a look at the turn. Sorry Chris, I am an IRC thug, not a respected member of the forums! http://www.slateman.net/images/gamin...kura-dance.gif

Besides, this thread does not have enough drama in it. However, I will be taking this useful "Majority Vote" concept away from here, as I've got a bunch of minorities I need to go oppress. Thanks!

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Could everyone please vote in the poll:
http://noobsvets.silverforum.net/vie....php?f=3&t=193

one way or another so we can move forward (or backward)? Right now, we've got a tie, of all things.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

For those of us who've stayed out of the drama, what's the short version regarding why or why not to rollback?

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

One of the players sent messages with gold and items to other members of his team. 20 messages were sent and properly processed by the game.
(this much is verified by the game logs)

He didnt notice that the "## message sent" counter stopped incrementing at 20. In other words at message 21 it did not say "21 messages sent". Apparently he had not run into this in solo or blitz play (understandable I guess since those rarely involve so many messages)

Also they found out that messages over 20 do not return the items.

They feel this is a bug and wish to redo the turn. Im guessing to more selectively send fewer items and retain the lost goods.

Pretty much all of our rollbacks have been caused by player action so far.

The precedent is....
Since this is partially a "newbies learning multiplayer" game should "I didnt know" learning experience constitute a rollback and redo. Particularly if an incident is not easily verified. Possibly not a problem with this one but it opens a door for misuse later.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I think a less pejorative shorter version is:

Squirrel sent more than 20 items and gold to teammates, amounting to almost an entire turns gold to one player; the items in excess of 20 were around around 50 gems worth of magic items.

The items in excess of 20 and gold did not show up.

It has been verified that this can occur.
Its a bug that has never been listed in any forum.

The proposed solution was to verify the problem did occur, and if so, run the exact turn files with the only difference changed or canceled "sent items" to teammates.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Sorry. Didnt know the amounts lost. Thats part of the "hard to verify" thing.

And saying "bug" might be abit pejorative also. At least to Johan.
It has been discussed altho not as a bug. I find specific discussions of it which includes expert vets, and beta testers, and Edi (who handles the bug list). So it was known even if it was not listed as a bug. Altho I am surprised no one has added it to the wishlist to have it lock the menu and grey-out more message making when it hits the limit.

Im not sure what it would mean anyway. Do we roll back for known bugs? for new bugs that arent listed? Im not sure its one but Im also not sure what the point is if it was.

I too am concerned about this sort of precedent. I don't want to be rolling back again and again here. We will never get anywhere. But this is why it is important that everyone playing decide.

Now, has anyone else, other than squirrel, lost any items, gems, or gold through this message limitation quirk this turn? I.e. Have you sent anything that was not received?

The reason I ask, is that if a rollback is done, our policy generally has been to allow only the affected individual(s) to resubmit. If it comes to it, the least pain and time involved the best.

Turn out and vote if you have not already. Democracy only works if people get involved and utilize it. If anyone is unclear as to the question or the issue (I know I was) don't hesitate to ask as Algae has done. 9 votes so far, we should have at least 16 if everyone votes.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Yes, don't be racist, to the bugs. Please call them "features".

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I had misunderstood the nature of the bug, and this one is even more known. On the bug I thought this was about - if player A and player B both try to send 20 items to player C in the same turn, even if player C has plenty of lab room, sometimes it doesn't work. So don't do that.

Since it appears that the vote is going against me, the procedure I suggest would be - let Gandalf open up the one .trn file involved twice, and redo it from start (since that is the only way to get items back, they're still gone if you delete all messages,) restoring whatever orders Gandalf can see and the one or two most important messages.

This should only take a few minutes and then we can get on with this. But, let us give the remaining players time to vote in the poll if they have an opinion.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

No one other than Sauromatia lost messages this turn. I can verify that because the game log shows the 20 messages sent by Sauromatia and no other nation came close to 20 messages sent or received. (player to player messages since those are the only ones that count against the limit)

@DrP: Id suggest that Sauromatia redo the turn if thats what is voted. Of that he find a 3rd party if thats desired.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I sent out messages to wraithlord, executor, and vfb.

Vfb declined inline, I haven't heard from executor, however wraithlord has very nicely agreed to help. As soon as we get an email address I'll be forwarding the turns to him, and to KO.

Edit: email address received. Wraith will do it tonight!

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

OK, I'm closing the polls, the results were 8(9 if Grudge is included) to 3 in favor of a rollback. Some of us may not be happy, I know me and Gandalf are not, and I know for sure DrP isn't but we must adhere to the decision. I am proud of all of you. We've handled this in a most civil and organized manner like adults should.

Gandalf has been informed to start the rollback, restore everyone else's .2h files except for Sauro and to only allow Sauro (squirrel to resubmit/redo). ACGHHS may opt for a neutral party to do the turn, but as long as Squirrel doesn't make any other changes, I'm fine with him doing it. The turn is to be sent directly to Gandalf. No other submissions will be allowed.

Lets get this done and over with as quickly as possible. While I frankly can't understand why any single player might send more than 20 messages per turn, it is possible I suppose. Lets avoid it and any more rollbacks in the future if we can.

Thanks.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Really sorry to have been such a bother.

I am happy to do the turn and let gandalf verify it is otherwise identical to the previous turn except for messages sent.

That said, I will not be able to do so until tonight sometime, so if someone wanted to repeat my actions and redo the messages with an appropriate number of things sent in the meantime, I'd be fine with that. Please coordinate with Chris as to the nature of the messages that should be sent. A review of our team forum by a neutral party would confirm which particular messages we know did not arrive, that they had been requested/proposed earlier, and that we were confused by their absence, if people want to be satisfied that we aren't ordering new sendings in response to the new turn.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Thanks all.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Chris tells me Grudge was able to cast a vote, though apparently he still cannot use the message system (for reasons that I still don't yet comprehend). We shall therefore assume this to be the case in any future vote. 8/3 final tally.

Turn 33 Revisited. Looks like we are back in business and back again at turn 33. Generally on a rollback you expect two sets of turn files (the rollbacked turn (32) and the redo (33) but apparently Gandalf has just sent us the only the necessary one). I suspect that Gandalf has either decided to leave the forced timer off till the end of this redone turn (which we should be expediting) or till he can get a chance to set it.

At least 7 or 8 of us, had went ahead and sent in a our turns for 33 last time before we learned of the outcome of the vote (and to cover our bets :D). But it is IMPORTANT that everyone delete their old .2h files (which contains your orders for turn 33) from the folder. While Dom3 generally won't let you load up the old .2h file with the new turn file (you'll get a nagok gik fel) it has no control over what you do on your own, i.e. do not just send in the old .2h file done with the old turn assuming all will be fine. You MUST redo your turn to avoid any issues when you send it to the server and when it comes time to host.

If you've forgotten what you've done you can review the old turn and .2h before placing the new one in the directory and deleting the .2h file. This is just an FYI for those who may be new and for those of us who may have forgotten.

You'll notice that this time, the message stating C'tis has been vanquished is not present and are therefore still officially in the game, but it won't be for long I suspect.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Well, the first time I saw the poll it wouldn't let me hit one of the choices.

Ten minutes later....I hit the wrong link and was back there, tried agian and bingo, it worked.

YOU don't understand why I can't post?

Try looking at through this end when I have to go thru 10 PM's with Chris and spend all his time (not to mention mine) giving and getting orders!!!

My wife thinks my Computer is haunted as it NEVER shows the same thing she gets on hers, and I'm to dumb to know how to change it.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

i got the turn sent to me.
remember to set tirnanog to the new player please.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

The file came in JUST as I was logging off for bed. I hosted but forgot to restore the timers. They are back now.

The change of player I probably would have missed anyway. Restoring all files for the previous turn also restored the outmails file. I think I did a manual just now that worked. Let me know if it didnt. The outmail list is fixed for next hosting.

PLEASE everyone be careful to use the latest file sent. Even if you are only making the same changes you did last time and already sent. We need a new one based on this latest trn file.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

You did a manual what just now? I'm confused.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Sorry.
I did a manual sending of one player file to a replacement player. The rollback also rolled back the send-out addresses file and failed to send that one file to the new person.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Ah. Alright. Nothing I have to worry about then.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Grudge your not dumb! Don't say such things about yourself. However, I don't think your computer is HAUNTED either. :D I do remember that you had been having an extremely difficult time accessing and/or getting the forum website and posting system to work correctly for whatever reason. I know me and Chris had tried to get you sorted out (I asked for a screenshot at one time) but I don't know what has happened in the intervening time.

A note to self and others, game 2 and 3 will state clearly on the opening post, NO ROLLBACKS unless a server issue or other event occurs that the admin and host have control over. Tis a difficult thing, you want to cover a lot of eventualities and try to cover as much of the rules of the game as you can in the opening post, but you have to sacrifice completeness for brevity otherwise you end up with a 10 page opening post that no one will read. I am sure that those who have admined games can understand what I mean.

I've updated the opening post to revise my ongoing evolution of what I think is at least a good general measure of what constitutes a Vet, Intermediate, and Noob player for our purposes anyway.

Veteran: 3 or more years of Dominions (not limited to Dom3) experience (both SP and MP) and/or Hall of Fame Member (Hall of Fame indicating extra-ordinary skill level).

Intermediate: 1 to 3 years of Dominions experience (both SP and MP).

Noob: 1 year or less of Dominions experience (both SP and MP).

The above can be further broken down (if necessary) into:

Green Noob: 6 months or less of experience (1 month or less = Fresh and Green :)),
Lower Level Intermediate: 1 - 2 years experience,
Upper level Intermediate: 2-3 years,
and Seasoned Veteran: 4 or more years of experience.

This usually can be determined in most cases by looking at a players Shrapnel forum join date (Space Empires and other games of course will throw this off).

Also experience alone does not take into account skill level but generally with experience your skill is assumed to improve. This also doesn't account for number of games played. But it's a reasonable guide I think.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I don't know, game bugs that have a severe impact should warrant rollbacks (and i would have supported another team in rolling back for this latest reason on that principle), especially if the game bug is relatively unknown (by a reasonable reader of the forums), extremely poorly understood, or impossible to control.

That said, given the nature and the scope of this game, and given there was apparently an issue in Preponderance with the message limit (according to Namad, people had to negotiate the value of a message in addition to the value of the goods being actually exchanged, which is crazy), I'm really surprised some vet didn't mention this bug before the game even got going, knowing that it would likely be an issue in a team game.

I would be curious to know how many teams' vets:
a: knew about the bug beforehand (chris didn't, Dr.P apparently had some inkling)
b: actually told their teammates about it beforehand

This particular bug is the kind of thing it would be really useful to point out in the OP of future games (of this style), because it will come up in a team game.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Good. Rollbacks for purposes other than fixing game killing bugs are generally a very bad idea. I only wish that had been the case for this game as well, as I am probably not playing anymore mp games for a long time and will definitely not be in any of the sequels.

@squirrel: When I found out how much you guys actually lost I was... disappointed. 50 gems? And what, 6-800 gold? Losing one turn's forging and some gold is, in this game, annoying, but not really a big deal unless you're absolutely fighting for your life. I don't think this game is hanging on such a fine thread, and indeed I don't think very many do period. What you guys lost was basically a drop in the bucket. The only scenario I could see your team's loss of said goods as being really important is in a duel scenario between two evenly or very closely matched players. And even then, I doubt it would have much impact on the overall outcome of the game.

I really don't understand why you guys made such a big deal out of it. As far as I can tell, in most dominions mp games unless a bug or weirdness hits more than just one player you NEVER see a rollback. This being the sole exception in my memory (which is not to be relied upon btw).



Dr. P knew about the bug, but didn't mention it. I was not aware of it myself and doubt anyone else on my team had any foreknowledge of the message limitation.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Knowing and mentioning is always rough. Experts tend to settle into things "we all know" and not mention them. But THIS one would have be particularly hard. I learned of it years ago in my solo games but it doesnt come up much when all the other players are AIs.. And there arent really that many team games played so I dont think its the kindof thing that sticks to vets minds. I dont think it comes up much in blitzes.

"Ive got a mind like a computer. I will remember anything, as soon as you ask me."

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Yeah, even though many of us played the noobs vs vets series we never encountered that issue. We never had anyone sending out so much stuff in a turn. Maybe the vets did, but they never said anything about it.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Well, we didn't run into it because we knew about the bug :)?

I recall there was a discussion of the 20-send limit for the forge *****, but it didn't have a strong impact in the Noobs vs. Vets game in which I played *because* we got completely clobbered.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Speaking of Noobs vs Vets, some things did run a bit smoother, and you'd think that message limit, if it was going to have been tested, would have been tested with 12 people on a team. It might have been, if certain strategies had been implemented.

There were a lot of things in this game we were not expecting/did not know about. Some may criticize and say "Well you should have known". They said this of Gandalf, that he should have known that people would upload all sorts of weird stuff to the server. They said this of myself, that I should have known that AIs cannot be customized and played via Llamaserver. They said it of ACGHHS, that they should have known about this 20 message limit. There are/were just a lot of unique and challenging circumstances in this first game.

Still, we've overcome these challenges and we must roll with the punches. We're human after all, sometimes we get caught up in micromanagement and details, sometimes we are blinded by our own biases, sometimes the desire to win at all costs blinds us, but we regain our vision and right ourselves in the end.

If we are biased in one way or another we seek the opinion of the majority to neutralize it. If we get caught up in details we take a moment to see the big picture. And if our zeal to win overtakes us, we are reminded of what we are really here for. Play enough team games and you will learn to how to work with all kinds of players. You will learn the importance of compromise and teamwork, and most importantly, you shall learn to take it in stride and just have a good time.

I say, put whatever frustration or anger you may have to good and constructive use. Take it out on your enemies in the game. Make them pay! Let loose those dogs! It is time for blood to flow! Where is it? Where is the blood? :D