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Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
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I keep a picture of you, engulfed in flames but still typing the one Last post... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Please, no !!!! |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
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Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
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I am not living at home, and my family is safely away from the fire... Trust me, if the fire was near enough to be a danger to me, my computer (and my other belongings) and myself would be far away by now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif [ October 27, 2003, 22:14: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
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Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
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JLS my friends and me play Finite all the time and we think the balance has always been fine, I guess you did the impossible JLS and did balance all game setups with one set of files, AIC not only works great in Finite it Works Great in No-Warp. The Refining Community, Refining Society, and Refining Center are crucial to winning when playing finite, more so if you are not a Crystal Race. Oleg in a finite game radioactive can disappear quickly. The radioactive traded at these centers are real important, not to mention the research the storage and every thing that is included. Hey I am all for reducing the cost, but is it realistic, I think a Refining Centers are much more important in Finite then most Cities. If your playing a standard game then build Cities and when you need rads just build the Rad extraction facilities. I am not at my gaming computer but the Rad Community should be about twice that of the Colonial Settlement and close if not more then the Colonial Community where ever that falls it might. Oleg, did you notice JLS droped the Facilities upgrade cost to 40%. Now it is way cheeper and more productive to upgrade. But if building Cities strait up works for you, gp for it, although that does not make much sence Oleg because if you start at the Colonial Settlement you gain its production as you upgrade to a City, not to mention it a heck of a lot faster. This is pretty much the way it has been set up since Last February, to say 50% reduction in cost now with out even playing AIC Finite. Heck why now even think to use the Crystal Trait to get there Solar and Rad Value stuff. This sounds way out to me, if there was an older post I see why it was missed Quote:
In that scenario with a 100% mineral and a 100% rad combined planet If you look at all the numbers it would be more productive to build Mining Complexs that give 1000 Minerals a pop and if rads are need which is rare in a Non-Finite Game then I would build a few Radioactive Extraction Facilities this is a Mining Planet and get the pay check now. Not time consuming Huge Cities, think about building Cities on planets like only breathable 60%, remeber the Imperial trade is not subject to Planet Values. [ October 28, 2003, 06:13: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ] |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
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I play option 1 and 2 in AI Low Bonus games to get the competion down. I used mp 1-3 for my Dual Temporal and Organics Race. Thanks for the starting Temporal Yard, good Idea Oleg http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I also won a Medium AI bonus game with my dual Race that was v3.02 and I had the best start ever plus Strategic Fighters. The TIPS are a big help thanks |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
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[ October 28, 2003, 06:03: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ] |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
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I will perhaps try again a Finite Game, with or without High Tech cost this time. |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
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Upgrade routine indeed makes cities less profitable - refining community cost 30K while colonial settlement only 6K. 40% upgrade cost makes settlement->City cost 28K ref.comunity->ref.center cost 74K The 46K difference will be repaid in 230 turns http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Unless it was the first building on your first colony, game may be over by that time ! |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
I am at my computer now Oleg and you are right http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
JLS did you drop the Cost of Cities and not drop or raise the cost of the Rad and Agr? JLS you want to consider a decrease in the Refinning Com. but about 20 to 30% like Oleg recommended. 50% is to great. [ October 28, 2003, 15:59: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ] |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
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In se4 you will be to low on the planet value by the time you researched Planet utilization 4 never mind Planet Utilization 6 or 7. I dont think it is wise playing Finite at High Tech cost. Try playing Finite at default or LOW Tech cost with No AI bonus http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [ October 28, 2003, 16:07: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ] |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
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In se4 you will be to low on the planet value by the time you researched Planet utilization 4 never mind Planet Utilization 6 or 7. I dont think it is wise playing Finite at High Tech cost. Try playing Finite at default or LOW Tech cost with No AI bonus http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">*Cough* Deeply Religious *Cough* Well, I am not sure if the Nature Shrine would work as well as the Value Improvement facilities though. I have to admit I tend to beg for pain to be dropped on me from time to time. *Smirks* But would it work with a Nature Shrine instead of the Planet Utilization field? (Meaning no, or very late, Atmospher Converters though. Except with the use of Boarding Parties that is) |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
JLS I think the v3.02 AI in 4.0 is still great but you also said you were going to upgrade the AI to catch up to v4.00. You said this will be done for v4.01 or v4.02.
When and how do you plan on doing this is you are (AWAY) |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
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http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Right I heard this before from you JLS http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
Oleg, Alneyan and GLC, is this more in line with your desires?
If so, it will be in v4.01 patch that is will be released in a few weeks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Name := Refining Community Description := The first stage of an organized self-sustaining community. Development of techniques, skills focusing on Radioactive Refining. Facility Group := . Advanced Communities Facility Family := 171 Roman Numeral := 0 Restrictions := None Pic Num := 85 Cost Minerals := 3500 Cost Organics := 8000 Cost Radioactives := 4000 Name := Refining Society Description := A large established society focused on energy production. This includes a local government, cultural institutions, and various interdependent communities and habitats. Facility Group := . Advanced Communities Facility Family := 171 Roman Numeral := 1 Restrictions := None Pic Num := 86 Cost Minerals := 5000 Cost Organics := 15000 Cost Radioactives := 10000 Name := Refining Center Description := A large established society focused on energy production. This includes a local government, cultural institutions, and various interdependent Societies and habitats. Facility Group := Zenith Urban Center Facility Family := 171 Roman Numeral := 2 Restrictions := None Pic Num := 80 Cost Minerals := 10000 Cost Organics := 45000 Cost Radioactives := 20000 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Name := Agrarian Community Description := The first stage of an organized self-sustaining community. Development of techniques, skills focusing on agriculture. Facility Group := . Advanced Communities Facility Family := 170 Roman Numeral := 0 Restrictions := None Pic Num := 84 Cost Minerals := 3000 Cost Organics := 3000 Cost Radioactives := 7500 Name := Agrarian Society Description := A large established society focused on sustainable agricultural development. This includes a local government, cultural institutions, and various interdependent communities and habitats. Facility Group := . Advanced Communities Facility Family := 170 Roman Numeral := 1 Restrictions := None Pic Num := 87 Cost Minerals := 5000 Cost Organics := 8000 Cost Radioactives := 12500 Name := Agrarian Ecosystem Description := A network of developed societies focused on maintaining, cultivating, harvesting, and living within an advanced ecosystem. Facility Group := Zenith Urban Center Facility Family := 170 Roman Numeral := 2 Restrictions := None Pic Num := 88 Cost Minerals := 10000 Cost Organics := 15000 Cost Radioactives := 40000 |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
GLV.
Alneyan and I have decided to test these Warp Open values. Any feed back on this? If its a go and after testing then it will be out in the v4.01 patch. I am not going (away) ??? = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Name := Gravitational Quantum Resonator I Cost Minerals := 16000 Cost Organics := 0 Cost Radioactives := 3000 General Group := Stellar Manipulation Ability 1 Type := Open Warp Point Distance Ability 1 Descr := Can open a warp point out to a system 40 light years away. Ability 1 Val 1 := 4 Ability 1 Val 2 := 0 Name := Gravitational Quantum Resonator II Cost Minerals := 24000 Cost Organics := 0 Cost Radioactives := 6000 General Group := Stellar Manipulation Ability 1 Type := Open Warp Point Distance Ability 1 Descr := Can open a warp point out to a system 60 light years away. Ability 1 Val 1 := 6 Ability 1 Val 2 := 0 Name := Gravitational Quantum Resonator III Cost Minerals := 36000 Cost Organics := 0 Cost Radioactives := 9000 General Group := Stellar Manipulation Ability 1 Type := Open Warp Point Distance Ability 1 Descr := Can open a warp point out to a system 100 light years away. Ability 1 Val 1 := 10 Ability 1 Val 2 := 0 Name := Gravitational Quantum Resonator IV Cost Minerals := 50000 Cost Organics := 0 Cost Radioactives := 18000 General Group := Stellar Manipulation Ability 1 Type := Open Warp Point Distance Ability 1 Descr := Can open a warp point out to a system 150 light years away. Ability 1 Val 1 := 15 Ability 1 Val 2 := 0 Descr := Sml Transport Mount. GQR-V requires MT mount Name := Gravitational Quantum Resonator V Cost Minerals := 50000 Cost Organics := 0 Cost Radioactives := 25000 General Group := Stellar Manipulation Ability 1 Type := Open Warp Point Distance Ability 1 Descr := Can open a warp point out to a system 200 light years away. Ability 1 Val 1 := 20 Ability 1 Val 2 := 0 Name := Gravitational Quantum Resonator VI Cost Minerals := 70000 Cost Organics := 0 Cost Radioactives := 32000 General Group := Stellar Manipulation Ability 1 Type := Open Warp Point Distance Ability 1 Descr := Can open a warp point out to a system 250 light years away. Ability 1 Val 1 := 25 Ability 1 Val 2 := 0 Descr := Med Transport Mount GQR-VII requires LT mount Name := Gravitational Quantum Resonator VII Cost Minerals := 80000 Cost Organics := 0 Cost Radioactives := 40000 General Group := Stellar Manipulation Ability 1 Type := Open Warp Point Distance Ability 1 Descr := Can open a warp point out to a system 300 light years away. Ability 1 Val 1 := 30 [ October 28, 2003, 19:33: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
One addendum about your Last post JLS. Please keep in mind there are differences in size between the different openers, which explain why the cost of some is lower than what you would expect.
* The level opener 5 requires a Medium Transport, as its size is about 450kt. * The Last opener (level 7) needs a Large Transport, its size being above 700kt. As for the facilities, I will let Oleg and GLV speak, I am no expert about Finite Games, and since these facilities are above all useful in Finite. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
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My main concern: If so, we need to keep an eye on the overall combined research package versus the AI over all Techs in the late Mid Game. In-game play testing will decide the future of these changes. However if this is another step in allowing more (but not easier) AI low to Medium Bonus Game; Human Player Victories, I am all for it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ October 28, 2003, 19:45: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
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Since I also do not play finite I forget that Imperial trade is not subject to Planet Values and is very helpful also in non-finite. I see what you mean GLV it does make more sense building pure Extraction Facilities instead on 100% plus planets http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [ October 29, 2003, 21:11: Message edited by: QBrigid ] |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
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This way you have the production of the base facilitie while it is up-gradeing and GLV mentioned that it is 60% cheaper to upgrade then to build "strait up" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [ October 29, 2003, 21:13: Message edited by: QBrigid ] |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
JLS I love the Raiders in AIC can you make it so they can block trade at far away warp points?
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Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
Yes and no, QB.
I have a plan, but I need to present it to PTF so he can work his magic to Refine and Test it, as he did with the AIC events file. In regards for the need to defend far away warp points, well if you notice there are many that say there is a difference in the feel of Option one’s addition to AIC that reduces the need for Star Liners. In effect this is similar to your desires, for if you can not build up far away or troubled contested Systems with Star Liners and an ongoing supply of POP then you are in effect; blockaided at that geographical location http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif This is one reason why many are fond of the Star Liners with MASS settings as with PvK's Proportions MOD and AIC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ October 30, 2003, 17:01: Message edited by: JLS ] |
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I also prefer not to have Star Liners, Fyron . http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Well, then again I like a few. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ October 31, 2003, 09:35: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ] |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
1: JLS, you should drop the Engines per move for the Fast Colonizer to 11 from 12 so you can get one more move out of it but you should raise its cost.
2: I like the newly revised Refining Communities Family. IMO you should drop the Rads on the Agrarian Family just a bit more but otherwise they test fine so far. 3: PvKs Culture add-on plays great!!! But as a result of AIC's Engineering Races you should have a -5 Research to that Culture for balance. 4: You also should add a few more Warp Openers to the Science and Engineering Races to open some Warps that close by AIC random Events. The new Fast Frigates are awesome, I also like the revised Military Barracks in AIC v4.0 you added a Military Presence Value that will make the planet Populations Happier. Alneyan thanks, the new warp openers play perfect. Early Warp Openers now can retrofit to the Create Planet and back. The Maintenance wont kill you and now having a Stellar Science ship always available, that is really needed for some AIC Random Event set-ups and quick to build in No-Warp games. [ October 31, 2003, 10:13: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ] |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
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[ October 31, 2003, 15:28: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
Oleg, the Medium Star Liner makes a nice fit for the beginning of the game. Thanks.
I also have the Large Star liner in at Ship Construction 5. Renamed the Small Starliner to Freighter. Again thanks Oleg; AIC now plays much better when Option (1) is not choosen; with the above changes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif AIC v4.01 will be out in a few days, so keep the Suggestions coming http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [ October 31, 2003, 15:43: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
The new, cheeper Stellar Manipulation makes easier to build planets from asteroids. Very high production values of asteroids makes them much better than "normal" planets. May be decrease asteroid values a bit ?
Also, in non-conected games, some AIs build nebula destroyers very ealier and promptly converts nice looking systems into boring emptiness with a star in the center. No big deal of course but I would really like to have nebulaes for longer ! |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
Originally posted by oleg:
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[ October 31, 2003, 16:21: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
JLS: do ALL the data/AI files have to be updated to the new Version or are critical ones that need to be updated?
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Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
All players, please enjoy your current AIC v4.0 games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
AI Campaigns next players update v4.01 will patch into current v4.0 games and will NOT break any existing games. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Pathfinder also to mention: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif AIC v4.0 Upgrades v3.## This was a full upgrade and the v4.0 AI, does depend on much of the DATA from AIC v4.0. Some AI Players diplomacy was intentionally less aggressive for AI Campaigns v.4.0 release and many will be tweaked with AIC v4.01 to be a bit more aggressive. In addition, to include (some) increased AI Colonization. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [ November 01, 2003, 13:40: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
I have a complaint about "random ship teleportation" event. It is an innocuous event by itself, gives a lot of fun to humans and has no effect on AI in connected games. BUT, in non-connected it can wreck a total havoc on AI. Example: Terrans are usually robust AI with respect to stellar manipulation and colonization. However, in my latest game, terran vessel has been teleported to another AI system with open warp point. I am not sure what happened next, but I suspect Terrans switched from "non-connected" to "explore" state. They have steller manipulation ship buil but it does nothing. They also have two idle Rock colony ships and refuse to build any Ice colony ships despite having several colonizable planets in home system. Terrans are in complete mental block. I' pretty sure it is because they can see unexplored open WP but can not reach it. AI routine is completely confused. (i can send savegame file to anyone interested)
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Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
On the second thought, tt may be deeply rooted in the AI algorythm for WP opener. I think it operates this way: open WP from HW system to some other system and then use that system as an operational base for WP opening. However, if AI can "see" some other, unreachable, system due to random ship move event, it tries to send a stellar manip. ship there. Since it is impossible, it goes into total mental block http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
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Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
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Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
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Consider this change for v4.01. If it is of no effect then (Ship - Moved) event may be subsequently out of the AIC LOW-Default Event options http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Ship - Moved has little value when not connected because there is no link to the other Home Systems so in effect no diplomacy will take effect. In connected games it also has its flaws but is still neat non-the-less http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanks Oleg http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Reference Type := Ship - Moved Severity := Low Effect Amount := 2 (se4=3 and AIC v4.01 = 1 or zero Message To := Owner Num Messages := 1 Message Title 1 := Spatial Anomaly Message 1 := A freak spatial anomaly has transported [%VehicleName] to an entirely different solar system. Picture := ShipMoved Time Till Completion := 0 Num Start Messages := 0 [ November 01, 2003, 15:12: Message edited by: JLS ] |
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Also to say that being Random, that in every game the AI Players may play different depending on the Situation. The Higher the Event Frequency; the more Events will contribute to the situational changes in your game and many like this and set the Event Frequancy to HIGH. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif In regards to your Terrans, Oleg as it is with se4 Ship-Moved Event… Well maybe a mental Block in Stellar Manipulations at this point in time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif However, the Terran AI in your current game will still flourish with Research and Ship, Fighter and Base Upgrades in addition its infrastructure. However, not many Systems in that game, but in the next it may blow your doors off. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Please don't get too hung up on this in your game; at some point, another Player will open the warp and the Terrans will be free again to romp, grow, and play. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [ November 01, 2003, 15:53: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
Well, they MAY recover if somebody open a warp point into their system http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I collected an archive of poor Terrans stagnation - almost 100 turns with an idle WP opener. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I think AI operates this way: normal routine - only HW system is known - move somewhere, open WP. use the new system to open WP screwed situation - AI ship is teleported and AI "knows" another system. AI commands WP ship "move to 'some coordinates in new system', open WP". There is no path, so ship orders are cleared, WP ship stays idle. Next turn, repeat and rinse http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif The key problem : AI is programed to open WP from HW system then and only then when no other system is known. Once it get a map of some other system, it will never ever open WP from HW. Even though that other system is unreachable. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
Agreed, Oleg the Terran AI in your no-warp game will function, but not open Warps at this time...
At least it will continue to research and grow, and perhaps not to its full potential with total ship count... I do expect other Terran triggers in time for your current game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Nevertheless, in that game, at that situational time; consider your Terrens as a Neutral Player that will acquire the ability to chase and bite all postal workers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I may remove the se4 Event Ship-Moved from the Low-default event option and sure to raise Ship-Moved too CAT in all... And again, Thanks Oleg http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [ November 01, 2003, 15:46: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
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~TIP~ When the AIC AI Players asks you for a Research, Military or Partnership agreements; in most situations, it is for that AI Players benefit, and not so much yours. Please re-think all agreements that exceed the Trade agreements. Even a Research agreement will have long-range effects with the wrong AI Players and that may not be conducive for your Empires overall goals. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [ November 01, 2003, 16:29: Message edited by: JLS ] |
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Edit: Traveled may equal: 3 = 300 ly 2 = 200 ly 1 = 100 Ly and within some early AI no-warp game capabilities http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif 0 = not sure yet, still testing... [ November 01, 2003, 19:56: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
How can you agree to a question? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
Stop doing that! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif [ November 01, 2003, 20:08: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
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Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
A setting of zero or 99 has little effect.
Why se4 is at 3, eludes me. The se4 ship-moved event will be removed from the LOW default Events zip, for players that do not want this Event in their no-warp game. Thanks Oleg http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [ November 01, 2003, 20:33: Message edited by: JLS ] |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
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Thanks Oleg I forgot to bring this up. |
Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
GLV was it AIC v4.0, v3.02 or any other?
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