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Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread
Great pic CJ. This particles effect is totaly awesome!
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I really like it too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Great work.
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Pretty pictures!
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I'd like to start moving stuff over to the official Adamant Mod Forums. It is hard to keep track of stuff in this megathread...
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Such as this thread .
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I have created a number of posts with inquiries about the current state of Adamant mod in the official forums. I am looking for all sorts of feedback on how I can improve the mod. Please drop by if you have the time. Also, feel free to create posts about any other issues you would like to bring to light or discuss. Thank you.
http://www.spaceempires.net/home/mod...forum&f=17 |
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Machine Races and Physical Races are practically the same paradigm (techology based), except coming from opposed sources of intelligence (computer versus biological). For weapons, I am thinking that the Machine Races will use the same types as the Physical Races. I am trying to think of some way to tweak them to be different, yet still balanced. Any ideas?
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What would be the major differances between such races? Use that as a starting point. Machines do not reproduce they build replacements. Machines are great at maitenance so those costs should be adjusted if not already. They can build faster as they do not need sleep. They have superior strength but less agility.
They are emotionless for the most part. I doubt any of this will help you though. Good luck. |
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Machines would have no reproduction so they should have the AI Workshop type facility at the start.
They would have no need for life support or crew quarters. Therefore a Master Computer component should be made available from the start. This would make ALL of their ships vulnerable to computer viruses which will help offset their many advantages. They should be able to get a neural net type component early. Training is simply downloading the latest combat protocols. Perhaps have the training happen either very quickly or instantly but have the experience cap lower than that of normal training centers. Radioactives would be much more valuable since their entire population would need energy to operate. Their organics requirements would be either very low or none at all. Colonization components would require many radioactives since new colonies would need a large store of energy to keep the population online in the early stages. Solar Collectors to generate radioactives would be a good tech for them to have early on. Thier effeciency and lack of physical needs would allow them to utilize planets very effeciently. Therefore they would have a lot more available space on their planets than most other species. Machines are not known for inventiveness so research capability would suffer. Espionage however would be good due to advanced database hacking technology. Perhaps giving them a seperate set of intel projects centered around computer overrides and digital database infiltration. They would not have to be emotionless, but of course they would all be mechanoids. Unless you want to put cyborgs in this category. Too bad there isnt a Non-Breather trait. Machines can typically operate in any atmosphere without consequence. Well, thats all I can think of right now. |
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Eh? Machines have to build new copies of their race just like the squishies.
Machines need to be kept powered and topped off on consumables to stay alive, just like squishies. And they need their daily maintenance cycles, just like the squishies. That sounds like reproduction, lifesupport and crew quarters to me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif |
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Reproduction would depend on if each unit is responsible for making more units or if the creation of more units is done in a factory. If it is the population's job, then yeah, reproduction makes sense, but if done in a factory they need a special factory facility for population construction. Perhaps making a sub-trait for population construction that costs exactly as many racial points as reducing reproduction to non-existant gives.
I'm with you on life support and crew quarters. It would work fine that way. I just prefer the mandatory master computer idea since it gives them a much needed weakness. |
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How is factory production all that different from a beehive, where the queen makes all the babies and the rest fight and work?
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SE4 reproduction is based on a percentage of the total population amount. If the population isnt responsible for reproduction then it should not be factored into it. They only way to do this in SE4 is to use the AI Factory ability.
Hive insect races would ideally have a similar setup with a Queen's Chamber facility on their homeworld responsible for primary reproduction in the empire. Hive races would need a lot of pop transports since there is only one queen which is at the homeworld. |
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You only need a million-to-one ratio of workers to reproducers in order to make the system indistinguishable from a typical 2:1 reproduction scheme or the popular "everybody reproduces" bacterial system when you're measuring it on SE4's scale.
Facility slots are freaking huge, after all, where you get 5-25 facilities on a planet with billions of population. |
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Well I was just trying to find a way to make the machine races different from the others. That was the most drastic change I could come up with. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
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Well, you could always have two flavours of machine race... Its really all in how you justify it with your RP history and mod physics I suppose.
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You can't really set base reproduction to 0 for specific races, unfortunately.
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Machine ships would require no crew quarters or life support. Their bridge would most likely be a centeral control point or a MACHINE itself. (Like in BSG)
A Machine ship would require a power planet - on par with a Q reactor. They would have no need for biologicals but would most likely use neutron bomb weapons to kill biological infestations while keeping the infastructure of a world intact. They would most assuredly have a Machine World Ship (Death Star Type) |
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I like the sounds of a research penalty and production and construction bonuses for the machines. I also like the idea of not requiring any kind of crew quarters or life support on their ships. Whether that is done with a master computer or simply by having no requirements on the hull is not really all that important.
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You could also just assume that a fraction of the population is purely dedicated to fabricating new robots...
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I like the idea of a facility that lets them spread quickly.
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I have uploaded a new dev snapshot.
Energy race weapons are mostly present. I am trying to think of a few more to round out their selection. Currently, all of their weapons use 1 supply and are 2 to 4 times as expensive as normal weapons. I am still deciding if I want some of them to use 0 supplies, so they will continue firing once supply stores are gone. I have not yet decided how to make machine race weapons different from physical races, so they are currently identical. I also have not made the troop weapons race-specific yet, so all of the races use the same weapons for troops. Other than these things, and some sort of patchwork to get basic compatibility for machine and energy race AIs, it is about ready for release. Download location: http://adamant.spaceempires.net/dev.php History file: http://adamant.spaceempires.net/files/dev/History.txt |
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For machine ideas, try reading the 'Berserker' series by Fred Saberhagen.
Some ideas: Weapons that only work on biological species (Anti-crew/pop has been suggested), more research required for intelligence (To mimic biologicals), faster ships, faster missiles, better accuracy. Not as good training facilities, slower research (Biologicals are more creative). |
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I think Narf's suggestions would go a long way to making the machines play very different from a physical race.
Throw in some better production and construction facilities and then while the machines would not have as advanced of tech as a physical race, their many ships may acquire a kind of disposable aspect. I would recommend giving them better initial accuracy and poor or non-existent training facilities to enhance the cheep throw away aspect of their ships. You may also consider giving their fighters a boost over the other races or even better yet make that a paradigm specific racial trait like Organic's inherent regeneration trait. |
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Contrary to popular belief, the mod is not dead. There is in fact some discussion over the practicality of researching large ship hulls:
http://www.spaceempires.net/home/ftopict-853.html Also, there is a new dev snapshot available. Cue Atrocities posting "cool." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/stupid.gif |
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Ok here's the situation in the current dev version of 0.16.00 (which is not quite available due to SEnet having issues, but I have attached the data/ai files to this post)...
<hr> Every facility that is labor intensive promotes unhappiness. Miners, farms, research facilities have -1% planet happiness per turn (which stacks fully). Some other random facilities that you won't be building much of anyways have -2% or -3%. For happiness facilities, you start the game with a +2% planet happiness facility, the Entertainment Network. Psychology 1 costs 50k and leads to Applied Political Science, which has a cost of 20k. Levels 1-4 improve the Entertainment Network by 2% per level, up to +10% at level 4. Levels 3-5 give the UPC, which has +1% to +3% system happiness. Troops do not provide any anger management, due to a drastic change in the nature of the ground combat system that makes it trivially easy to build 67 or so 2 kT troops in a single turn from a 2000 build rate planet. The goal of the UPC is not to replace the Entertainment Network, or to eliminate unhappiness concerns. The way I see it, it provides great benefit because only 1 of a hundred or two facility slots (10 planets with average size being medium for 15 facility slots) in a system is being used up to provide its 1% bonus to all planets. I see it's power in terms of space efficiency. <hr> The following has been brought to my attention (strung together in a piecemeal fashion from an IRC conversation): Entertainment Facility IV + 8% happines, Urban Pacification Centre I + 1% happiness across the whole system? Isn't that a bit lame in comparison? Level 1 of Urban Pac is like 8x as inneffective as 1 entertainment network. Its per planet thats important. If one of my planets it rioting, I want to help as best I can from another planet. UPC is a very small insignificant supplement after years of research. I think it should be available earlier on if its a supplement. What I meant was: you research 3 levels of Applied Poltical Science, and you get Entertainment Network III + 6% happiness. You think, wooh, if I research it one more time I get Urban Pacification Center I. So you do, and you get Entertainment Network IV, +8% happiness and Urban Pacification I +1% happiness across a system. <hr> Discuss. |
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I think that the bonus, while small, since it applies to an entire system and not just one planet, is really more than it seems. (In stock, all players HAD was the per-system happiness effect, so they were in a sense spoiled! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif) However, since you don't get a stacking effect from building multiple UPC's, I'd think that it might help to do something different with the UPC's - maybe make 5 levels of them, starting at level 1 of Applied Political Science, or increase their effect to 2/3/5, or something like that.
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Nobody else has any thoughts?
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I like your ideas for the happiness facilities, but with the other facilities having a negative effect, will this be enough to offset that? Without the troops to aid in this matter, we will need to build empty base hulls or something to increase the happiness, as long as ships in the system still help. But then we pay maintenance every turn for them.
Can a population modifier be added to a component? If it can, maybe make expensive components for troops, so it takes like 5-10 turns to build one. Maybe even making it oversized with a troop to match so you end up with something like a police headquartes or such that is 300kT or something like that. I don't know if that would work, but you might be able to pull the basic idea from it and make something work. I was also wonering how the other two races were coming along, the machines and the energy based. |
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I think Fyron was going to boost up the happiness amounts for the planetary facilities, which will help to some degree. I think he'll also need to adjust the natural decrease or make other events like ship construction or colonization bring bigger boosts to happiness - to balance out the loss of happiness from troops. Of course, in this case, you might expect to have unrecoverable planets when they start rioting (especially during a large attack etc) since you can't just drop troops and you might not be able to build ships in that system...
One problem I've found using a similar happiness model in my Space Food Empires mod is that the AI planets will tend to drop to a rioting state before the happiness facilities are built. On the other hand, if you queue up happiness facilities before industrial facilities, you'll get a bunch of small planets with just a single happiness facility and stuff ot that sort. So you'll probably need to have the AI build a couple facilities first, than a happiness facility, and then some more industry and so on. Planets with just 2 or 3 industrial facilities will need either a system happiness facility in the system or be able to benefit enough from changes in the happiness.txt file. Lastly, in my mod where troops are treated differently than Adamant, they still provide a boost to happiness. In that case, I have my idle queues build some troops which will help the smaller industrial planets going. |
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Wolfman77 said:
I like your ideas for the happiness facilities, but with the other facilities having a negative effect, will this be enough to offset that? I think so, but only testing will tell. Each point of happiness from a facility is the equivalent of 5 stock troops. The Entertainment Network V counts as 50 troops. Wolfman77 said: Can a population modifier be added to a component? I do not hold out much hope of this working, since abilities on cargo do not generally work for the planet/ship carrying them, but it is something I was meaning to test before my hard drive went belly-up. Wolfman77 said: I was also wonering how the other two races were coming along, the machines and the energy based. All data except for weapons and AI is pretty much done for them. Energy races only have a few weapons, pending ideas for new ones. Machine races currently have the exact same weapons as physical weapons, as I have not yet determined how they should be differentiated. CaptainKwok said: I think Fyron was going to boost up the happiness amounts for the planetary facilities... Only for the first two levels, bringing them to 4/5/6/8/10 instead of 2/4/6/8/10. This is primarily to reduce the amount of scrapping micromanagement necessary. At the start of the game, 20% of facilities will need to be happiness facilities. You can keep this ratio later on and get lots of extra buffering against large negative events, as you would in stock by building 100-120 police troops on every colony. You also get a bit of insurance against an unlucky loss of a happiness facility in a battle. CaptainKwok said: So you'll probably need to have the AI build a couple facilities first... They will have staggered builing of happiness facilities with industrial facilities, once I get around to working on the AI stuff. There is also the possibility of adding less productive facilities that do not create unhappiness. They would need to be at least 25% less productive to make level 1 of normal facilities worthwhile to build. |
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How about some nonobot weaponry for the machines?
energy race: EM pulse, Photonic Burst, Charged Tendril, Quantum Resonator If you want some more I can probably think of some. I also had an idea for the reproduction on machine races. reducing reproduction to 0 and giving them android construction facilities. It would give them higer growth rates for new colonies but they would slow their growth (percentage wise) as they grew. Maybe have their homesystem start with 50 or 100 per turn. New colonies can effectively build 2-5 per turn at the start of the game, maxing out at around half of the home system increase. Don't know if you like the idea for this race or not, but it would set them apart from other races. |
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Unfortunately, there is no way to set the reproduction rate to 0 for a race based on a racial tech trait. AI machine races could be set up to have 0 reproduction, gaining many points in the process, but human players would not likely wish to comply with this... If required traits worked, I could do this easily and force human players to take a trait which reduces reproduction by 100%.
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Does the modiffy reproduction ability work with negative numbers? I'm assuming there is now way to do this in the "RacialTraits" text, but negative reprodution, on all their facilities would give the same effect, if it's possible.
Also, I noticed a couple facilities that seem to be using the wrong pictures. Growth Chamber Facility I (HI), and Growth Chamber Expansion Project (Minerals), in case noone else has mentioned them yet. |
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I can probably add a racial trait that lowers reproduction, and state that machine races are supposed to take it... but it would be on honor system.
Negative reproduction modifier facilities do not work, sadly. Thanks for reporting the buggy pictures. My editor has been slacking off. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif |
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Could you adjust the cost of the racial traits so that they are forced to take it?
Also the Organic Mass Reactor discription is missing the word "matter" I think. I try to help where I can. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif |
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Hey all. I've spent the evening trying out this mod, but found it is the first mod that crashes my computer when it loads. The game hangs after getting loaded to 20% pretty consistently, though i've managed to get it going once I've stopped some routine background running programs (but then the computer crashes when I exit the mod).
I'm pretty sure this is a out of memory related issue that most of you won't be seeing since most of you have newer computers with more memory and there is probably not much I can do except to upgrade memory in order to participate (which means it is a non-starter for me). But before I write off participating in this cool looking mod in PBW, I'd thought I'd ask the group here if this is a problem that others had encountered or if there is a way to cheat down the memory usage in the mod on my computer that won't kill participation in the PBW games (I'm thinking by reducing some of the larger variables in the settings.txt file to be more in line with stock.) |
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How much ram do you have? You could try increasing your virtual memory setting.
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Ugh... my web host seems to have done a clandestine backup restoration of SEnet, which just so happens to coincide with the death of my hdd. The dev snapshot on the site predates adding workforce unhappiness and pollution models. Does anyone have a dev snapshot just prior to this that has mineral miners making people unhappy?
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Dunno if anyone cares at this point, but I have launched a revamped Adamant Mod site today:
http://adamant.spaceempires.net/ |
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Just curious, what's the deal with the space ports. I see it's a resource converter, but it says something about trading resources with local merchants?
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Could use some more pictures. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif
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Geo:
75% loss resource converter ability with the trade with local merchants description. Kwok: I am no artist. Care to donate a few? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif |
Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread
Oooooh, Nice. Could use a some more pictures though.
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