Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Well, thanks for looking into it at least :) 12 hours is going to be cutting it pretty close for me I fear, as I will not have access to my computer again until very late tonight. Hopefully it will be enough.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I meant we have 12 hours to allow Septimius or Melnorjr to respond.
It hasnt been turned down either.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Oh. That's what you meant. I thought there was some sort of server issue preventing it. I also thought that septimius had granted the request? Oh well, I'll leave melnorjr a message and see if I can't coax him into responding.



Edit:

That is the exact quote. I guess it is sort of nebulous though. On one hand, it could mean what I want it to say. On the other hand, it could mean that he is willing to grant the extension so long as no one objects. Or he could just be taunting us :D. It really is hard to pin down an exact meaning on that statement.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

rdonj, have no fear, Septimius is here! Yes, I'm about to add the original 24 hours asked for to the timer. If more time is needed, I'm sure you or DrP will let me know.

Edit: That is, if it is still wanted/needed.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Thank you!!!!

I'm pretty sure we'll still need the time, because I am pretty sure we're going to need to get a sub for illuminated one.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Thank you rdonj for your defense and Squirrel for your commentary.

Squirrel, what I meant really meant was that in most strategy games, the developers/designers sort of "balance" the game by giving each faction certain strengths and weaknessess. Counters are provided for this, that and the other thing. Globals can be dispelled, tiny units can swarm and bring down much larger units, etc, etc. I think some things were put into the game for reasons the designers thought best. Of course the players know best, I'm just saying ...

I would like to preserve at least one game with a thread here on Shrapnel that is largely vanilla (with all its glorious imperfections and imbalances), not because I am anti-balance or anti-CBM, but rather because I think that it is important for players, especially noobs to play the game vanilla in order to appreciate the extensive balance modifications that CBM makes. Perhaps I am a bit of a purist, but I believe also that players should have a choice as well. And there were some AI considerations as well.

I remember when I played Space Empires, one could join either a vanilla game or one using Capt'n Kwok's balance mod (I wonder if Kwok and QM are related?), both types were readily available. I'd like that to be the case with Dom3 as well. Aside from Gandalf's server, it seems they are getting harder, and harder to find.

Rdonj, Chris came up with some great ideas for keeping team alternates in the loop and interested, aside from giving them forum access which I thought was a good idea as well, they can be set to work gathering intel (maybe from IRC, isn't that where people gather to chat about the game or something?), researching, creating maps, etc. We need to find more ways to get them involved, perhaps letting your alternates play a turn or two every now and then, to give em a chance to get some action in and keep em loose.

Of course there are some alternates, like Grudgebringer who turned out to be very reliable, and a few others I can't remember now, forgive me.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Mmm, IRC intel gathering. I do go into IRC sometimes. But I am usually pretty good about not giving out interesting information about my team (squirrelloid is an IRC regular, as is maerlande... so when he was playing, I had to watch myself around him). Instead when asked about the game, I tend to talk about the mistakes I see other players making, or talk about things I know about other teams. Squirrel is pretty good about guarding his relevant information too. If I'm playing by myself though I am much more fast and loose with my tongue.

Some of those certainly seem like good ideas to keep up the interest level with the alternates. A bit too late for us devas, and some of them seem maybe a bit excessive, but especially taking a couple of turns every once in a while could definitely help there.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I think a standard of balance that requires more than 500 provinces is not a good standard of balance. Games at even 500 provinces just never end. And since the endgame looks the same for everyone... sure, if the map is big enough that you're starting endgame during your first war, then everyone is balanced. But that's both boring and uninteresting. There's no point in the research system if everyone is expected to be in endgame by the time they're fighting - might as well make all spells #researchlevel 0 at that point. Really, 300 provinces is too large, much less 500. And more than 15 provinces/player is definitely too many.

The real problem is that some nations have a really hard time surviving early game given the unit rosters, spells available, and so on. With a reasonable number of provinces/player (so that the game has a high likelihood of actually ending), you're almost guaranteed to have at least one enemy capital ~3 provinces away from your own. Which means you could very well lose a war by the end of year 1, especially against an opponent who spent pretender resources for the early game.

Arguing that very large maps are the way to achieve balance is also clearly not what was intended by the developers. The whole point of sacred bless strategies and awake pretenders is to be strong during the early game - and those strategies lose power the later into the game you go. Clearly maps are supposed to be of a size where taking that kind of strategic option is supposed to have a commensurate benefit. The first problem is that some sacreds can't be defended against effectively by some nations, even if you did take a strong bless or an awake SC. CBM tries to fix this by making many of these 'too good' options more expensive, and thus harder to rush with as early. Spending pretender resources on the early game should give you an advantage, but it should not be an insurmountable advantage that virtually guarantees you a kill against one or more nations.

The second problem is that the additional expansion afforded by an awake SC or strong sacreds often over-compensate for whatever bad scales you chose to take - ie, good scales in many categories are insufficiently good relative to the advantage gained by sacking the scale for a better pretender or bless. CBM tries to fix this by improving scales, but in many cases it hasn't gone far enough or can't go far enough given modding capabilities. (IMO and for example, Lk3 should absolutely prevent bad events from occurring - spending 120 points on Lk3 is often a poor expenditure even given the boost luck has already received in CBM. Of course, such a change is not moddable.) This is a nation problem because nations benefit differentially from sacking scales for strong blesses, based on the strength of their sacreds. Taking negative scales should involve a noticeable trade-off, not be something you do as a matter of course.

Basically, it isn't unreasonable to expect that nations be relatively balanced (that is, have some sort of trick that helps them against any particular style of attack) at every phase of the game. The reason to have spells accessible by research is to cause the game to change dynamically as research is accessed, and the game should be interesting across the entire spectrum from no research to full research. It fails on both ends right now. At low research, some nations just destroy others. At high research everyone summons tarts or loses.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Wow, Squirrel is in the know. What depth and detail. I knew right away when he joined us in NvV, this was a noob that was extraordinary. Gandalf, what have you, or anyone else to say in defence of vanilla? Is there any reason to play MP without CBM? What about games with a non-competitive bent, learning games, certain team games, etc. There does seem to be a certain amout of hyper-competitiveness going around.

Btw, if we can reach 35,000+ views we shall rank 4th as the most viewed thread on Shrapnel.

Well I put in the 24 hour extension and now it reads -9 hours till hosting. :confused: I've sent an e-mail to Gandalf.

Edit: Bingo on the second try after Gandalf fixed it. 34 hours should be aplenty, now lets have those turns please. :)

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

[quote=Squirrelloid;727784]I agree that the balance by large maps was not what the devs did. But large maps ARE part of the game. That are many variations in Dom3 other than 2 to 4 nations on small maps. I have no problem with blitz-duels but Dom3 wasnt made just for that. In order to tweak balance for a specific type of Dom3 game it was expected to use a mod (which is what we do).

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Gandalf, can we be *absolutely certain* that the game won't host in 2 hrs?

I propose that we do a mid-era version of this game, where everyone gets the MA version of their current team! So my team would be Jotunheim, Gath, Caelum and Ulm. This would be completely fair and none of you would have any cause to complain.

Okay, the best way to resolve this is a blind-bid system in fixed order.

You fill out a list with your maximum bid on each nation (out of 100 boku.) Then, the nations are bid on:
Ashdod, Ermor, Jotunheim, Vanheim, Pythium, Pangaea, Eriu, Caelum, Abysia, Shinuyama, Ulm*, C'tis*, Bandar Log, T'ien Ch'i, Marignon, Arcoscephale, Machaka and finally Man

* these nations are promoted because of their added utility to a team.

Yes, the order is open to discussion, but is in large part based on my assessment of their team utility. For example, Shinuyama has a real killer app (evokers + darkness) that they're almost guaranteed to get if they've got a team backing them up.

If you end up winning more than 4 nations (which is entirely possible!), then you get to choose from among the 4 you won. No trading between teams!

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I woulnd't object to this method.. but I like bidding. it helps correct bidding anomalies.

Which is better - someone grabbing ashdod for 20 boku.. or a spirited bidding that leads ashdod to go for 72.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

There is nothing I see that should cause it to happen.
These are the only "at" timers that nav has.
154 Sun Jan 24 18:10:00 2010 a nav (force)
155 Sun Jan 24 09:10:00 2010 a nav (reminders)

Or if we get 4 more turn files.

But the only *absolutely certain* would be to turn off the hosting entirely.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

noobish question:

Why do heavy infantry in some of my provinces cost 9000g each?

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

That's due to the better independents mod. It makes most indies cost ridiculous amounts of money so that the AI doesn't recruit as much useless stuff. There are some things that aren't so expensive, usually archers iirc.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I think it punishes a few highly useful units, actually.

Heavy Cavalry/Knights are good if the AI has a production bonus (it doesn't spend that much money on them anyway), and barbarians are good for a number of applications in the early game.

But it prevents the AI from buying huge numbers of wolf tribe warriors and medium infantry and suchnot, definitely an improvement there.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Thanks. I guess I just never noticed before.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Agreed.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

[quote=Gandalf Parker;727792]I'm not talking just 2 to 4 nation games. 12 people with 180 provinces (15/player) still has serious early game balance issues.

In fact, its even worse than 2-4 player games, because you don't know if your BL is going to end up with Ashdod next door until you run into them. If they're on the other side of the map, you don't have to worry about angry giant sacreds beating down your door. If they're your neighbor, you're probably getting rushed into oblivion, because your early game is crap (especially against Ashdod, against whom elephants are no help). And if they attack you turn ~7, there's no way you're going to rope in any help - your would-be allies are going to sit back and be thankful Ashdod is killing someone who isn't them.

So in a 2-4 player game, where you know Ashdod is going to be proximal, you plan on fighting angry giant sacreds as soon as you start building your pretender. (You still have a damn hard time of it, but you can give yourself every advantage). In the 12 player game you have no idea, and if you plan for killer giants and instead get rushed by jags and eagle warriors from MA Mictlan, you're in trouble because you prepared for the wrong enemy. Or if you don't get rushed you're in trouble because you spent a lot of resources for an eventuality that didn't occur (and thus lost relative advantage).

Ashdod, on the other hand, doesn't have to worry about killer rushes - its the biggest kid on the block and it knows it. It can build its pretender while ignoring everyone else in the game, and optimize itself for long term success. There is no good early counter to Ashdod - and *that* is a problem.

That's a 12 player game, a perfectly reasonable common standard around which one might expect nations would be balanced if anything was balanced. Its reasonably close to the norm of play (my guess is 8-14 players covers 50% of PBEM games).

Ultimately, number of players isn't the relevant number once you get above ~5, its provinces/player and total provinces that are the relevant numbers. Provinces/player determines what early game is going to look like. Total provinces determines what late game is going to look like.

At any sane number of provinces per player (10 <= x <= 20) the game is horribly imbalanced in the early game in favor of a few nations. As total provinces exceeds ~150, endgame becomes painful and approaches unplayability as that number gets large. (Its even worse with gem gens, because then everyone ends up with hundreds of pearl income per turn from clams that leads to stupidity like armageddon spamming. There's a reason why making gem gens unique is considered the single best change CBM has made recently.)

I mean, I could argue plenty of specific balance problems, many of which are resolved by CBM and some of which are not, but it would take an epic amount of text to have a point by point discussion. Multiple full-length posts could be written (by one person) just to cover pretender chassis balance, for example. I'm painting with broad strokes because the problems are so frequent that it would take extraordinary effort to do anything but be superficial.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I'd make it even simpler.

Its almost impossible to have a game scale well for 2 player games as well as 20 player games. On top of that scale between easy research to very difficult research. 0 strength indies - 9 strength indies etc.

Nor do I think anyone should try. Balancing is roughly the job of the participants.. saying in effect.. sure you can have ashdod.

We're going to take pythium, jot, and mictlan.... (or whatever)

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I've asked a few times: Can we find out the status of helheim and TC? If they are constantly staling, can we get them set to AI.

Its kind of moot to think they may attack the blesseds - the devas are killing them.

It really distorts the game, to kill nations that are not even turning in turns....

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

It would be best to look for subs first but yes, they either need to be controlled or set AI. On the other hand, if TC attacks its allies with its remaining armies it could be pretty painful for the remaining blessed ones. Sure, we are killing them anyway. But they really don't need to help us do it. In this particular case I think going AI might well be less effective than staling.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

As I write there are 21 hours remaining. Please do not forward the timer based on only stale nations remaining. I am requesting my players look at a couple of things.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

We're also counting on Caelum having a turn here over in the Devas. We have a sub lined up for this turn who should definitely be able to get one in.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

You can certainly do better than at present. In particular, current balance fails mostly at two points: (A) Early game where rush strategies can dominate and eliminate weak nations before they get going and (B) late game where some nations need to commit a lot fewer resources to achieve relevant endgame magic, and thus have more power in the endgame or could take better pretender options for other parts of the game (where, given they already possessed strong late game options, a stronger early or mid game translates directly into more late game power).

Solutions:

(1) Every nation should have available counters to every other nation in the early game. This isn't actually as hard as it sounds because most nations rush strategies (if they have one) fall into one of a couple of archetypes. These counters can be in the form of units or level 1-2 research for a national path. Currently only a couple magic paths have effective early rush counters, leaving nations who lack those paths and lack effective early sacreds with nothing to counter rushes with.

Early game really does come down to a 1v1 situation, regardless of how many players are involved. I've killed EA Ulm as early as turn 12 with Lanka, including successfully storming his capital. There is no way any aid was forthcoming before he was dead, and really nothing he could have done about my triple-blessed sacreds.

(2) Every nation should have something(s) effective to do during midgame that is reasonably accomplishable. (Requiring disproportionate expenditures of gems by some nations is not reasonable). This is probably where the game is best balanced at present, although there are certainly problems.

(3) Every nation should have access to magic which is effective and relevant in the endgame. The best way to do this would of course be to make every magic path relevant come endgame. This is a huge problem because so few paths currently have relevant endgame options.

(4) Everything needs a counter. Everything. The counter should become available approximately when the tactic does.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Addressing a few topics here:

Extensions and time delays can be painful when staling nations are present. Setting nations AI when there is a chance they might attack former teamates can be an issue until they are reduced to the point where they no longer are a threat. Then it is only a time issue really. If I know who is staling regularly (i.e. who has dropped out or is not being played by someone), I can of course force host after all active players are in.

I've been wondering about the effectiveness of the BI mod and have been trying to gauge its worth for the sequels. I'm glad I'm finally getting some more input from the players. Is the benefit to the AI sufficient to warrant the loss of pretty decent units like barbarians and such for the human players? A tradeoff between more competent AI and unit variety is what using the mod means.

I was thinking of adding the Worthy Heroes mod but it seems to have become integral to the balance mod now. The last standalone version is quite old (wonder if it is still useable under the current Dom3 patch(es)). The version that is built into CBM now, well there's no seperate .DM file for it, and I can't determine whether the heroes used now are specific to the balance mod in some way or another. If not, I could just write another .DM file using them. Squirrel, maybe you know more.

Games 2 and 3 are planned for MA, and LA respectively. You know I can't remember now whether the indies get tougher (and thus pose more problems for the AI nations) or weaker as the age progresses. I'm starting to forget more and more things ... :D

I am intending to use the simplist ranked list method with each team getting their highest ordered uncontested picks. I can simply specify that no team has both Gath and Neifel in their list. That will take care of the deadly due issue. I will balance that with swaps using the Agema method. I don't intend on going into ABCDDEFGH, or any of that other nonsense though.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

[quote=Squirrelloid;727871]You make great points. But it still sounds as if it all should be in the CBM thread.
The faults seem to apply mostly to CBM type games, and are areas which CBM specifically is geared up to fix.

We agree that the problems are not necessarily problems in other styles of the game. So general game fixes of those problems would have an impact on other types of gaming which would just cause those people to complain or fix it with mods.

But your points are valid.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Gandalf - how does this apply mostly to CBM type games? What settings make these concerns go away, considering there are issues at both ends (early and end game)?

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Some of the concerns are more about the type of game preferred and the type of settings preferred. You said that large maps do address many of the issues. As do solo play and team games. Also some nations pros and cons can be altered by game settings such as research, resources, victory points. So what is a downside in one type of game is a balancing factor or even preferred facet of the game in another.

The competitive dueling MP style of play definitely did need maps and a balance mod to focus on their needs.

There are also maps and mods which target the opposites. Ones which add opponents, more pretenders, more magic sites, more spells, more equipment. Much of which would be quite the reverse of the type of balance that competitive MP requires.

Your points were excellent. Im just saying that they would likely get more discussion in the thread for CBm than for example the thread in one of the game expansion mods.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

CBM has addressed many of the problems and continues to address them, but as a matter of philosophy will not make some changes no matter how necessary (no new spells, for example). The real point is that they apply to any MP game. The discussion is in this thread because the belief was expressed vanilla is balanced (its not).

A sufficiently large map addresses early game concerns, but not endgame concerns. If there are, say, 50 provinces/player there is no early game, sure, but nations which don't need their pretender to provide death access (for example) have a substantial advantage because they can tart farm easier and can build their pretender with a better early game in mind - leading to more mid and late game advantage. And since everyone is going to tart farm, the person who can do it best wins. Also, 50 provinces/player is *insane*. How many games like that have you seen start? Actually end? Without rampant quitting and general unhappiness about the game?

I am only convinced team games address issues if the people choosing nations for a team do so wisely. Or if someone takes the time to pre-choose team arrangements for nations so the teams are choosing nations as a block. The Blesseds sort of shot themselves in the foot with their nation choices since they have a bunch of nations that all do the same thing - raid. Obviously what nations are desirable are somewhat different in a team game environment, and depend on what nations are already on your team, but there are still winning and losing combinations, and winner/loser nations. (That Ermor went unchosen in this game is still shocking to me).

SP is only 'balanced' because the AI is bad and anything can beat it, and its metric of when it has the advantage is horribly flawed. It never uses good tactics like SCs or thug raiding. It can be artificially induced not to declare war on you by doing things like buying decent PD along your border. Talking about balance in the SP game is ridiculous because the concept is meaningless. Balance is only a concern for MP games.

Balance should also concern itself with default settings. Unusual settings are obviously going to not necessarily be balanced - and that's more ok. But the defaults should offer something resembling reasonable balance.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Well I dont agree that CBM applies to any MP game. Some of the changes play up the player-vs-player at the detriment of some of the more fun aspects.

As to the reason for this conversation I believe it was:
But I think its not that they didnt. I know for a fact that they put alot of work into it. But much of it would be in parts of the game that encourage alliances and role playing and variations beyond dueling. The perfect dueling balance is chess (everything matches except color of pieces and even the effects of that are arguable).


Which could be said as "small maps create a balance problem".

I havent really seen that in my games.

Many. Obviously small games are more numerous than large ones but thats part of the definition. Small equals fast and large equals long.

Very good. Teams and alliances are ways for nations to balance their imperfections.

Exactly. And if those were fixed, it would tend to impact on the games that others prefer.

And we again are in agreement.

So with 60+ nations in the game over 3 eras offering a huge wealth of different strategies it seems that some are weak and some are strong but everything has a response. Doesnt this seem abit different than "the developers not only failed to balance the game, they weren't trying to"? I understand that you are mad that the devs didnt balance your game but they did at least provide the means for that which is more than many developers do.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Squirrelloid said that the problems apply to all games, not CBM.

KO has explicitly stated that balance was a secondary consideration. Also, you obviously haven't noticed that the majority of the games on these forums are 8-20 players and use CBM. The claim that the people who want balance only play duels and blitzes is utter BS.

How many MP games have you ever played Gandalf? SP has no place in a discussion on balance, since a) it doesn't matter and b) the AI is just too dumb.

Links to threads please? I would love to see who enjoys games with 50 provs per player.

Wait, didn't you say that the devs DID balance the game? I'm confused now. You are correct though that they did better than most developers in giving us the tool to balance it.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Gandalf enjoys 50 provs per player. Didn't you know? Dom3 was designed to accommodate him exclusively. As he'll be happy to plug in the fact that he was one of the testers for the beta *eyeroll*. Now you know why we have nations like MA Argatha floating around.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

I was trying to debate the issue, not the person, but lol.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Personal discussion is unwarranted. And while I don't know about 50/person... Didn't legends of Faerun have 1000 provinces.. 4000?

Regardless, can we return the thread to NVV I think discussios of balance can be held else where.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

You know, Quantum_Mechani (the present maintainer of the CBM mod) is also one of the beta testers.
And Im quite aware of the population of this forum but dont consider that to be the entire game. Many more people bought, play, and download mods/maps than the ones here. Registering and being active on this forum is more for the purpose of competitive MP play.

And I have always said that I prefer solo. But I have also played MP with pretty much any expert player who has been around more than a couple of years including the devs.

But yes, lets not get the thread locked for personal attacks. Oh wait, that doesnt happen anymore.
OK go ahead.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Legends of Faerun was 400 provinces. And was also a big cluster**** that made all its players unhappy, or at least that's the impression I've gotten.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Well, it wasn't so much the size of the map as the plague of dropouts that screwed it over. Had it gone on though it probably would have become an issue.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Hey, regarding NvV - isn't there anyone that can take over Helheim?

It looks like TC got a turn in <yay> which is actually pretty phenomenal. Truman you up to take on a custodial role?

Anyone on the Blesseds want to play hellheim too?

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Hrm.

Well, its 45 minutes after hosting, and I still don't have a turn in email.

Also the website said that TC submitted a turn - however the stale page says that TC did not submit a turn (nor hellheim)

help? comments?

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

The files have been sent out.
3 files had matching serials.
1 file was the wrong turn.
1 nation did not turn in a file.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

A fascinating debate on CBM and vanilla. Some of which is related to our game, some may not be. Civil discourse is always nice, though probably won't be resolved here.

You know the first MP game I played (Faltering Steps) we had like 70-80 provinces each. I was able to handle the MM pretty well and rather enjoyed it myself. I didn't quit either, but got my butt kicked by one of the vets, my old friend Lingchih. If people want to play with large numbers of provinces, that is certainly up to them. If the game had a way of directing production via the setting of waypoints and so forth, it would make things a lot easier, seems to me.

But you must all remember I am a rather casual player and certainly unskilled player. The minutae of the balance mechanics between various nations and the micro level details don't concern me that much. For me it is sufficient that the developers took the time to give certain nations certain strengths and certain weaknesses. To provide counters for this, that, and the other thing. If things were completely, utterly, and totally imbalanced between the nations, then even a skilled veteran, playing any of the available nations, who knows that nation and the game well, would not be able to beat a noob or lower level intermediate player in MP. So I am glad things are not that bad. :D

Game note: I am contacting Captain Nymph to find out the status of the players behind Helheim and/or TC and whether or not Algae wants time to look for subs or whether they should be turned AI. And the status of the team for that matter.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

It can still happen.

Kissblade,
Stay on topic and out of the mud please.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Still waiting on a serious response.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Like what? That I dont agree with you? :)

I only mentioned QM because of the comment about me being beta and how that might have affected the outcome. I was a very small voice in a very illustrious group. Im just one of the few recognizable by the name in the credits screen because it matches my login here.

You cant disregard solo play "because the AI sucks" and then say that balance has no place in it. There are mods for balance which apply only to solo games and improving the AI but they tend to run drastically opposite of any balance effort for competition play.

Links? For what? the games Ive played? Most that I openly played under my own name here were in beta group. You tend to burn out on competitive MP after a couple years. For me that was in Dom2. But sometimes an interesting variation can get my attention. Such as the wiki game where everyone was required to write AARs which I joined (and so did Kristoffer). But the latest was YARG1 which I think is still going on. Come up with something interesting and maybe I will join in your game.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Gentlemen:

This thread is for the thread Noobs and Vets, and for the discussing of *this* particular game.

Can we please direct all other conversations to a different thread?

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Actually I almost thought you would like the idea for overlords, since it was so different and kind of RPish. But then, it turned out pretty poorly in the exact opposite direction of what most people expected :D


Edit: Sorry chrisp, so, this game huh? I am thinking setting TC AI now would be fine. They have little opportunity to attack the rest of their team mates, and they have a bunch of mages scripted to retreat that would be best not to do so many more times.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Actually Markata Madness sounded interesting. Many of my favorite tactics involve stealth, and underdog nations. But the restrictions went abit too far. Id kindof like to see a game that involved only the monkey nations.

"To believe in evolution without guidance is to believe that the sole purpose of our existence is to become bigger better monkeys. To become better at eating, sleeping, mating, and throwing feces at any effort to improve our existence. Hmmm.... come to think of it...."

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

Heh heh. That is actually a bit of a joke game, to go along with the monkey PD thread. I'll run it if it actually gets players though.

An all monkey nation game would be fine actually, without the nonsensical restrictions.

Re: Noobs & Vets: Rise of the AI Menace. EA, BI, Running.
 

The map would have to be larger than usual. Markata isnt ever going to be very useful for small maps and all nations since most of their benefits suck in such a game.