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Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Originally posted by Asmala:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pax:
Here's a possible suggestion:

I wouldn't improve the armor so much. You should remember that Shield Depleter is extremely powerful weapon. Just include a few of them and all of enemy's shields will be gone very quickly. So if an armor and a shield have the same HP/kT I'd rather choose the armor (unless I'm facing a crystal race http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )<hr /></blockquote>But the armor won't have the same hp/kT; it's have nearly the same. As, IMO, it should.

My second suggested chart for the shields would have the top nonphased shield giving 13.5 effective hp/kT.

Also consider that some weapons, such as the Graviton Hellbore, might be getting the Armor-Skipping ability.

SDs are nice, sure enough, but the truly BEST setup will likely be a mixture of armor and shields, in equal proportions. Handles shield-skipping, armor-skipping, and SD-heavy, all alike, with equal applomb.

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Originally posted by Pax:
But the armor won't have the same hp/kT; it's have nearly the same. As, IMO, it should.

My second suggested chart for the shields would have the top nonphased shield giving 13.5 effective hp/kT.

Also consider that some weapons, such as the Graviton Hellbore, might be getting the Armor-Skipping ability.

SDs are nice, sure enough, but the truly BEST setup will likely be a mixture of armor and shields, in equal proportions. Handles shield-skipping, armor-skipping, and SD-heavy, all alike, with equal applomb.

It's enough for me if the armor has nearly the same hp/kT, I'd choose it still (with one shield of course in case of engine destroying weapons or boarding parties). Of course those new changes can change this a lot, especially armor skipping for Graviton Hellbore and weakening the PPB.

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Going through all the Posts from the weekend...

Many of the major changes to armor suggested would be design changes suitable for a custom mod...
Also:
By token improvements I meant reducing cost from 50 to 30/20/15, or perhaps 2-3 additional hitpoints per level.

Changes that are compatible with savegames are nice, but it would be extremely restrictive to require them.

At worst, two Versions could be submitted to Aaron, one breaking saves, and one not.

Quote:

3. Capital Ship Missiles - do NOT give them unlimited range, as was suggested earlier. If low-tech missiles can be fired from extremely long range, then ...

The suggestion was to keep the current firing ranges, but allow the missiles to keep tracking until they are shot down.
IE: CSM II can be fired from range 10, but not range 11. That CSM would never fizzle out until combat ends.

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Many of the major changes to armor suggested would be design changes suitable for a custom mod...

Such as a balance mod... there is no balance between shielding and armor as it is now...

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Have their been any Committee Mods produced before. I follow the flow of this thread and I can't help but think of a camel.

[edit: I should qualify that. Many people have many different ideas of what should be balanced. I'll admit that Shield Regenerators should be low on the list, but I think Armor and Shields in general will be fine. Many people have very different ideas of how a thing should be balanced. I don't think the Talisman solution was actually pinned down, though many interesting possibilities were suggested. The drift here is incredible, a new subject comes up for scrutiny every dozen Posts or so and everything follows it off down the rabbit trails.]

[ July 28, 2003, 19:02: Message edited by: Loser ]

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Originally posted by Loser:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
The problem is emissive dosen't stack.

It kind of does. The first 30 points are taken off the damage when it hits the first Emissive Armor III. Let's say it goes over that, and has enough left to destroy the remaining 50 points of actual structure. Then it hits the next Emissive Armor III and 30 more points are taken off, before the shot is allowed to damage the next Emissive Armor III.

...<hr /></blockquote>EA ability works once and only once per shot. And it does not matter what component is hit. Some mods - like Proportions - assign EA ability to non-armor components. Some sorts of internal damage reflector. It still reduces damage done to all armor and non-armor components.
(armor skipping weapons ignore EA ability regardless what component has it)

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Thanks for the Emissive Armor correction, guys. Of course, I'm still going to test it, but since the test will no doubt confirm your declarations, I probably won't mention it again.

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

(armor skipping weapons ignore EA ability regardless what component has it)

Are you positive about that, having done testing to back it up? I don't think that is true, though I have not done testing on it in quite some time. I think EA ability is not ignored by armor-skipping weapons if it is on a non-Armor comp. Though if it is, that gives me a great new way to make Shard Cannons be useful in Adamant Mod... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Quote:

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
The three objectives:

To maintain compatibility with existing AIs. 

To improve the balance of the game, and increase the effective number of strategic options. 

To make as small of a change as possible to the stock game.

First of all, this is a great idea SJ. I believe as long as you stick to the above objectives this will be a unique and valuable mod to the community. I think the uniqueness comes from maintaining compatibility with existing AI's.
I also believe another objective is compatible with those above and has already come out of the discussion so far (regarding armor).

To enhance the strategic options available to AI designers in the future.

Potential enchantments to AI strategic options:

As mentioned previously, the inability to add normal armor to AI designs in the exact amount desired is particularly annoying. Rollo�s solution to always have normal armor as the �latest� is the most desirable, but another possibility is to give normal armor an unused ability like �ancient ruins� and then AI designers could call specifically for that ability is the misc. section.
The ability to call for resupply depots both on a system wide basis AND an individual planet basis. Since the �supply generation� ability is the one that is system wide, this can be accomplished by adding a second ability like �emergency resupply�. The AI designer could request �supply generation� for a system wide resupply depot and �emergency resupply� for a specific one (say on that construction yard planet).

Additionally, I�m sure there are others out there who know of more minor changes along these lines that would help future AI designs without affecting the stock game in any way.

Re: SE4 Stock Balance Mod

Two cents on weapons:

APB: Fully developed, this is a maximum range direct fire weapon with the second best point blank range damage value (damage/rate/kt) and the best range 8 damage value. I think we can agree this is so overpowering that it limits strategic options in the late game.

PPB: A PPB II has nearly the same damage value at every range as DUC V and goes out to range 6 instead of 5. If that were not enough, it also has the shield skipping ability. Fully developed it has the third best point blank damage value and an above average range 6 damage value. Plus it has shield skipping. IMHO, this would be an above average weapon without the shield skipping ability, so it needs adjusting.

MB: This weapon has a good range and an above average damage value. And both these traits are identical to the physic TKP. The one advantage the psychic player gets (for his racial advantage and higher research cost) is being twice as bulky so that it gets past the emissive and crystalline armor abilities better. If you adjust this then the TKP needs adjusting. But I think they are both already above average.

DUC: I think this is the gold standard weapon that all the other weapons should be balanced around.

PDC: I think you need to be careful with changes so that early PDC are still somewhat effective counters to early fighters (and their 80% defensive bonus).

Torpedo: A plus accuracy weapon would be strategically useful.

WMG: Strategically, I like the long range, very slow reload artillery concept. Similar treatment should apply to the mental singularity generator and high energy magnifier.

Tractor Beams: I,II,III Ranges 4,5,6 with 1,2,2 damage making both the beams and mounts of the beams more useful.

After all that Plasma Missles, Incinerator Beams, and Tachyon Canons are still underpowered IMHO.