Re: Balance Mod
 

Speaking of quirks like that, I researched Warheads, Mines, and Weapon Destroying Weapons to level 1, and got Tachyon Warheads... but the warheads' requirements description say they require level 6 Warheads!

edit: oh, also, I noticed the Weapons Disruptor can target planets... while that's pretty cool, isn't that a bit overpowered - a single frigate can disarm an entire planet's worth of weapons platforms???

Re: Balance Mod
 

Kwok, I found a small bug in your BM 1.11 AI politics script regarding the AI team mode:
The instruction to propose a treaty and not to break a treaty in the team mode are not at the end of the corresponding script section. Therefore it is possible that a script instruction that follows later still makes the AI to break a treaty in the team mode, which is exactly what I observed.
I moved your AI team mode instruction at the end of the section and after two turns all AI were united in treaties.

Re: Balance Mod
 

Thanks Q. I did catch this and a couple of other items when adding in the new alliance revisions. I've also made a few other changes that modify diplomacy based on a new "target priority" setting I've added. Each AI now assigns a priority to other empires or alliance, based on political status, proximity to each other, and relative empire strength. The typical result is that an AI will either target weaker players that are nearby or stronger players that is has poor relations with. Players of approximately equal strength and moderate relations are kept at the status quo. The general goal is to focus the AI's aggression against fewer empires at a time.

---

Baron, thanks for the catch. I've also put in the defense bonuses for seekers from the "Defense Systems" tech area for v1.12. I didn't tie in armor for damage resistance though, since not every race will go through the standard armor tech area.

Re: Balance Mod
 

Yeah, Organic Weapons need to be tied to Organic Technology because that is what increases the damage resistance of Organic Armor, and Crystalline Weapons (erm, the Crystalline Torpedo. Is there another seeker in that racial tech? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ) need to be linked to Crystalline Technology because that is what increases Crystalline Armor.

Capital Ship Missile, Plasma Missile, Ionic Pulse Missile, and even the Alloy Burner Missile make perfect sense having seeker damage resistance linked to armor tech. The Anti-Matter, Quantum, and Gamma Pulse Torpedoes are normal techs and also make sense linked to armor.

Re: Balance Mod
 

Too late, I already caved and did more or less that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Balance Mod
 

But more or less that is not that. It is, by definition, something other than that, thus being other than that. And if it's other than that, then it's something else, that is what it is. And since it is that and not that, as you can clearly see, that does not equal that, that you see. So if that does not equal that, then that is this which does not equal that, so that equals this. And since this is equal to that, then that is equal to this and thus, this is equal to this, which is equal to that, so therefore this and that are the same, but that is a different matter entirely. But if this is always this and that is this, that is therefore also the that that is this, unless it is not that, in which case it may be this. So you see, it's all a matter of this and that.


(If I've written that right, it is, in fact, completely parseable http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif This was, after all, my intent, that it was. )

Re: Balance Mod
 

Some more observations in BM 1.11:

The AI builds huge numbers of remote mining/farming/refining ships and sends them alone to enemy systems, which is suicidal.

Re: Balance Mod
 

I'd like to finish up v1.12 for next weekend, so post all your BM quirks, typos, bugs etc. you can recall!

Re: Balance Mod
 

I have reported earlier that stellar manipulation is researched very early and to high levels. It might have been a consequence of the ancient racial trait: if the AI sees no more warp points to unknown systems, he believes he is disconnected and researches stellar manipulation with highest priority. It might also be a problem in later games using the AI team mode when all systems are seen by all AI players. I don't know, if you have a script call like "all systems seen" that would prevent this.

Re: Balance Mod
 

Dunno if you got this one: the AI actually builds fast numbers of freighter style ships fullstop. Not just remote miners - mine layers, repair ships, troop ships, supply ships. It is hardly uncommon to see a ship with, say, 6 freighters and two warships.

Re: Balance Mod
 

Something I am noticing in a 1.11 game I am playing: The AI does not check if an 'attack fleet' has any ARMED SHIPS in it or not before using the fleet to attack. I keep getting attacked by groups of support ships with no combatants. As soon as combat starts it's a race to the retreat boundary between my ships and the fleeing unarmed support ships. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif Surely there is a way for the AI to verify that a fleet is armed before using it to attack? Else, how can it assess if a fleet is damaged and needs to be reinforced? Or even if a newly assembled fleet is ready to go attack someone?

Re: Balance Mod
 

I've added a condition where if the fleet doesn't have more than 50% combat ships, it won't be active.

Re: Balance Mod
 

That is a important improvement.
Did you change anything about attack location evaluation and the orders for fleets to attack them? That is still number 1 weakness of the AI IMO. Especially if there is only one enemy (AI team mode) and the enemy systems are more distant, the AI is completely defensive.
Another point is the apparent inability of the AI to remember that a warp point is heavily defended: the AI will send one lonely scout/transport ship/colonizer after the other in a suicide mission.

Re: Balance Mod
 

I re-did all the fleet orders regarding attacking and defending. All attack locations are sorted by priority level of the enemy and proximity to the AI's empire. There's a cap on the number of systems to consider for attacking as well, mainly to keep the attack focused. I also removed any stipulations that required the AI to be in an attack state before launching attacks. The attack state designation is now really just used for skewing the types of vehicles the AI will construct.

AIs will also designate fleets as attack or defense fleets. The composition of each fleet will differ slightly, with attack fleets utilizing troop transports and supply ships etc, where defense fleets don't. All fleet types can be used for defending or attacking nearby enemies, but only attack fleets will venture out to attack targets outside the AI's colony systems. They are also set to randomly probe warp points to enemy systems from time to time. Activated defense fleets when not busy defending will either hold in designated defense systems or train. The ratio of attack to defense fleets will vary depending on the type of AI.

Re: Balance Mod
 

Kwok

Thats an excellant enhancement, wots the ETA... soon i hope ;-)

Drew

Re: Balance Mod
 

Hey, CK, have you made any updates to the supply/ordnance storage of planets since 1.09?

I'm sitting here in the Celeb game with one of my smaller fleets asking for 200k supplies, and an entire planet with a maximum capacity of 8k supplies.
I suggest having resupply depots increase the planet's supply and ordnance storage space by 50k or so. That way they should be able to store up at least a year's worth of supply production instead of just one or two turns.

Re: Balance Mod
 

I did boost it a bit to 5 supply/ordnance per kT of colony in v1.10, but I'm fairly certain I neglected to make that change in the v1.09 PBW patch based on the 8K value you mentioned. Oops.

It does seem quite low still, I think I'll kick it up to 25 supply/ordnance per kT and bump up the cargo facility to provide 25K base, and 50K maximum.

Re: Balance Mod
 

I decided that I'd match up the supply and ordnance storage capacity to the same ratio as it exists in storage components. That is 25:10 supplies to ordnance. I'll also match up production to this same rate.

Each Cargo Facility will provide a base of 25000 supply storage and 10000 ordnance storage, up to a max of 50000 supply and 20000 ordnance.

The new numbers for v1.12:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Breathable:

Pop Facil Cargo Supply Ord
Tiny 500 5000 5000 125000 50000
Small 1000 10000 10000 250000 100000
Medium 2500 15000 15000 375000 150000
Large 5000 20000 20000 500000 200000
Huge 10000 25000 25000 625000 250000
Ring 25000 100000 100000 2500000 1000000
Sphere 50000 200000 200000 5000000 2000000

Domed:
Pop Facil Cargo Supply Ord
Tiny 100 1000 1000 25000 10000
Small 200 2000 2000 50000 20000
Medium 500 3000 3000 75000 30000
Large 1000 4000 4000 100000 4000
Huge 2000 5000 5000 125000 50000
Ring 5000 20000 20000 500000 200000
Sphere 10000 40000 40000 1000000 400000
</pre><hr />

Re: Balance Mod
 

Sounds really great Kwok.
I hope you will soon be able to release the new BM version.

Re: Balance Mod
 

Hopefully that's just a typo in your post;
large domed seems to be missing a zero

Re: Balance Mod
 

Nope. I made it 4000 just to irk you.

---

I had hoped to post v1.12 for tomorrow, but that depends if I can fix it's problems before then. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Balance Mod
 

I'm still finalizing the AI scripts for v1.12 as I've observed some inconsistencies that I'd like to iron out and there's a couple of fixes I almost forgot for unit designs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Balance Mod
 

One more observation in a later game (2430.0): The AI stops to explore unknown warp points even if they are adjacent to their systems. They miss systems with many empty planets they could colonize.
Scout ships are available but they have other survey orders for systems deep in enemy space!
My suggestion: make the priority order for scout ships to warp through unknown warp points. And don't give them suicide missions into known enemy systems.

Re: Balance Mod
 

Do you know if these enemy systems to be surveyed are provided via shared maps or from a scout ship? Are they "geographically" closer?

The scouting/explorer priority is survey/explore/patrol. Survey needs to be first because it uncovers new warp points to explore. The lists that store locations for surveying or exploration are sorted by proximity to the home system.

Re: Balance Mod
 

The enemy systems are seen by shared maps from other AI empires and they are much more distant than the unexplored warp points.
It seems that the distance is less important than the survey order. And I am not sure if the survey priority over warp point exploration is good: as human player I frequently give warp point exploration first priority. I still can later survey the systems.
About these list: I do not understand at all how they work. If you could explain what for example this list instruction gives you priorities, I could try some little changes myself:

// Attack Location Priority - Nearest attack location
call Sys_Prepare_For_List_Sort()
call Sys_Set_List_Sort_Field(1, lst_AI_Attack_Location_System)
call Sys_Set_List_Sort_Field(2, lst_AI_Attack_Location_Sector)
call Sys_Set_List_Sort_Field(3, lst_AI_Attack_Location_Strength)
call Sys_Set_List_Sort_Field(4, lst_AI_Attack_Location_Assigned_Strength)
call Sys_Set_List_Sort_Field(5, lst_AI_Attack_Location_Owner)
call Sys_Set_List_Sort_Field(6, lst_AI_Attack_Location_System_Distance)
call Sys_Set_List_Sort_Field(7, lst_AI_Attack_Location_Ship_ID)
call Sys_Set_List_Sort_Field(8, lst_AI_Attack_Location_Ship_Count)
call Sys_Add_List_Sort_Sort_Column(6, FALSE)
call Sys_Execute_List_Sort()

Re: Balance Mod
 

The problem is that if survey is not first, new warp points are not being discovered. However, I could probably switch how the orders are assigned, if there are no unexplored warp points, then survey first or something like that.

It's funny you would post that example from the v1.11 scripts. It actually has an error, as the sort condition should be set to true, which would sort the list by field 6 (distance to home system) in ascending order - ie closest first. False sorts it by descending order (oops!). Attack locations store info about enemy colonies in the AI's non-colony systems.

In v1.12, I did correct it to arrange the attack locations by closest to our home system. In the actual determination of targets though, that list is cross-referenced with the priority level of the target empire (a new variable in v1.12). So, the final targets for attack are highest priority enemies that are closest to our empire. I also changed how the AI interprets the strength of a planet, it was counting all the hitpoints of the population, which often gave colonies a high strength versus fleets - which made them not want to attack. So I adjusted the enemy strength estimation to more or less disregard hitpoints from population.

Re: Balance Mod
 

Thank you for the reply Kwok.

"However, I could probably switch how the orders are assigned, if there are no unexplored warp points, then survey first or something like that"

Yes that is exactely what I meant.

As you say the list example I mentioned is sorted by the distance (field 6). So what are all the other parameters for?

Re: Balance Mod
 

yea, we need a good guide on AI development.

Re: Balance Mod
 

The other variables are there because they contain information that needs to remain associated with whatever "column" is chosen for the sort. Basically, it's like creating a new "list window" screen where you have all these columns and can sort by each one. In this case, we're just sorting by the distance column.

For example, the value stored in lst_AI_Attack_Location_Owner index 1 is associated with the value stored in lst_AI_Attack_Location_Distance index 1. When a sort is executed on the values in lst_AI_Attack_Location_Distance, the indexes are changed, so that index 1 might become index 5 etc. In conjunction, the index 1 value for lst_AI_Attack_Location_Owner needs to be switched to index 5 as well, to maintain the integrity of the data.

Re: Balance Mod
 

Thank's again for the valuable information.
I eliminated the error in the attack location list you mentioned by changing the false to true and recompiled the script for an AI that had a fleet very close to my ships for quite a long time without moving at all. Now for the first time this fleet moves! I still have to see if they attack, but the change seems to do something important.

Re: Balance Mod
 

One more question:

// Nearby Enemy Location Priority - Strongest enemy target in a nearby enemy location
call Sys_Prepare_For_List_Sort()
call Sys_Set_List_Sort_Field(1, lst_AI_Nearby_Enemy_Location_System)
call Sys_Set_List_Sort_Field(2, lst_AI_Nearby_Enemy_Location_Sector)
call Sys_Set_List_Sort_Field(3, lst_AI_Nearby_Enemy_Location_Strength)
call Sys_Set_List_Sort_Field(4, lst_AI_Nearby_Enemy_Location_Assigned_Strength)
call Sys_Set_List_Sort_Field(5, lst_AI_Nearby_Enemy_Location_Owner)
call Sys_Set_List_Sort_Field(6, lst_AI_Nearby_Enemy_Location_System_Distance)
call Sys_Set_List_Sort_Field(7, lst_AI_Nearby_Enemy_Location_Ship_ID)
call Sys_Set_List_Sort_Field(8, lst_AI_Nearby_Enemy_Location_Ship_Count)
call Sys_Add_List_Sort_Sort_Column(3, FALSE)
call Sys_Execute_List_Sort()

If I understand this correctly the AI will attack the strongest enemy location. Is this wise? Why not the weakest?

Re: Balance Mod
 

Nearby enemy locations are enemy ships in non-colony systems. The strongest represents the most immediate threat, so you want those targets to be analyzed first (ie highest priority) in the attack routine. In the ship orders script, there are conditions to compare the strength of the ship or fleet to the target, and only then might an actually attack order be issued.

Re: Balance Mod
 

Ugh. I had hope to post the v1.12 yesterday, but then I had to go and get my Jubrup fleet pasted by a Sergetti fleet and noticed that their missile destroyers had too many weapons and not enough armor. Then I also remembered that I was suppose to fix crystalline designs so that they wouldn't use crystalline armor without shields etc. So I've made those changes but need to test them out.

More importantly, all the little bugs that were plaguing the revised fleet functions have been tracked down - well more or less. I'm sure there's a few lingering problems. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

There's a sneak preview of the changelog here: http://home.spaceempires.net/ftopicp-26188.html#26188

I will post it on Wednesday. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Balance Mod
 

Take your time Kwok.

Did you improve something about exploring and attacking the far sides of warp points with full fleets?

Re: Balance Mod
 

On occasion, the AI will order their fleet to probe a warp point that leads to an enemy or unknown system.

Re: Balance Mod
 

Um...

This one is a bit amazing. The "Small Anti-Proton beam" in 1.11 does NOT have troops or weapon platforms in its targeting field! Argh! So I had to sit and watch my troops RUN AWAY from the single defending militia of a planet I was invading. Hopefully this is fixable and doesn't require a new game, because if it does this game might be ruined.

Re: Balance Mod
 

Just change the target types for the Small APB to correct. I accidentally changed the Small APB rather than the Small AMT... that's what searching for partial strings (ie Small Anti) can do sometimes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Balance Mod
 

If you're interested in receiving a "beta" version of v1.12, send me a PM with your e-mail address and I'll send out a care package later tonight. I'd like to test this version a bit before posting since I'll be away for a few weeks and won't likely have a chance to fix bugs etc. if they pop up after I'm away.

Re: Balance Mod
 

Why does Stock skip Unique Tech 5 and BM skip Unique Tech 7?

Re: Balance Mod
 

The Balance Mod has unique techs labeled from 1-6. Stock looks like it missed 5, so it has an "extra" one labeled as 7.

Re: Balance Mod
 

How goes the galaxy mod?

Re: Balance Mod
 

I've started working on the data files, but I wouldn't expect a beta to be put out before February.

Re: Balance Mod
 

What purposed does the small flag mod have now, when the flags are resizable in the Empire Options?

Re: Balance Mod
 

Flags have been resizable for a long time... the problem is that option scales the entire bitmap image, which means that you can't read the numbers for your ships/bases/units/etc.

Re: Balance Mod
 

Greetings!

I've posted v1.12 of the Balance Mod. It features the usual bug fixes, some changes to how seeker attributes are determined, plus AI improvements in terms of Alliance diplomacy and fleet activities.

http://www.captainkwok.net/balancemod.php

I'll be away for the next couple of weeks, so I'm hoping that this version will be rather stable. Keep an eye out for hung turns when converting v1.10/v1.11 save games - you shouldn't encounter any, but I might have missed something.

The source files and updated tech chart will pop up eventually.

Version 1.12 (21 December 2007)
-------------------------------

1. Fixed - Error in target listings for Small Anti-Proton Beam and Small Anti-Matter Torpedo
2. Changed - Skip Armor now has 100% penetration versus armor
3. Fixed - Some seeking weapons had incorrect descriptions
4. Changed - Seeker defense bonus now based on defense systems tech area
5. Changed - Seeker damage resistance now based on armor tech area (or racial trait tech area for racial trait seekers)
6. Changed - Adjusted the scale of ships in combat (Thanks MrWho)
7. Changed - Increased the number of levels of the Mine Sweeper component
8. Fixed - Sometimes Cue Cappa fighters had no weapons
9. Fixed - The AI was sometimes not adding combat sensors or ECM on fighters and troops
10. Fixed - Error in sort routine for choosing attack locations and nearby enemies
11. Fixed - Error in AI Medical Ship design
12. Fixed - Sometimes the AI's resource ships were attempting to remotely mine in an occupied sector
13. Changed - Some AI players were building too many remote resource ships
14. Fixed - Sometimes Ministers would not use or retrofit a player's design type correctly
15. Added - The AI will designate systems to avoid for non-combat ships
16. Fixed - The AI was not spreading its supply ships between fleets effectively
17. Changed - AI will designate some fleets for attack, others for defense
18. Fixed - The AI in team mode would sometimes break its treaties with others AIs
19. Added - Support for AI Alliance diplomacy
20. Added - The AI will assign a priority value against their opponents
21. Changed - AI fleets can now attack multiple targets in a turn
22. Changed - AI Colony Ships will attempt to load a Weapon Platform if colonizing a planet in a defensive or nearby enemy location
23. Changed - AI will launch mines more frequently and in greater numbers in their defensive locations
24. Fixed - Ships that rebel due to events or intelligence will join a known race or the race responsible for the intel attack
25. Changed - Only vehicles that have movement will have their orders changed through events or intel attacks
26. Updated - AI Scripts

Re: Balance Mod
 

Thank you very much, Captain Kwok, I very much appreciate all your work on the Balance Mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Balance Mod
 

Thank you again Kwok for your excellent work.

Whatever you changed since the last version you sent me, it makes a big differences in the game I sent to you: the Phong attack now the enemy ships.

I hope "eventually" will be soon, as I learn very much from your AI scripts.

Re: Balance Mod
 

I can post the scripts and updated tech chart when I get home later today.

Re: Balance Mod
 

Balance proposal...

It seems to me fast plasma missile frigates are a bit out of balance. 2 Plasma Missiles and PD can be placed on a frigate, along with enough speed to keep it out of range. While this is a perfectly valid way of attacking, they can overwhelm capital ships while staying out of range. Perhaps only 1 Plasma Missile should fit on the frigates?

Re: Balance Mod
 

The dual missile frigate has been discussed a lot before, the general consensus was that it was more of a strategy issue than anything else.