Re: MBT's
 

Abrams armor is semi-modular for the turret. You simply cut open the access ports on the top of the turret and slide the armor out. Hull armor... I don't know.

Re: MBT's
 

I can understand being able to do that but as it’s integral to the design that would probably greatly weaken the armour. An unsupported plate is nothing like as strong as something that is part of a structure if designed properly. So what do they do replace it with tungsten or steel?

Re: MBT's
 

My time is short, however, from what I can find is there are 3 options for the foreign buyer depending on budget for inserts...
1. Steel Plate/2. Applique Armor/3. Ceramic Armor.

I thinking not likely, but possibly, ERA.

Very basic for the following ref., but if layered, the layers can be removed.
https://science.howstuffworks.com/m1-tank4.htm

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

This is also a reconfiguring of the Brigades within the 1st CAV so it's a retro hash thing:

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-...Socialflow+ARM

Re: MBT's
 

Well I see it's been awhile. Making our house much improved for either us or a new home owner, we :dk: yet.

Anyway, I've held on to this for awhile now. It might be of some interest to someone.

My biggest take on this is dealing with the HESH round which, I believe there was some discussion on in late Spring this year. I seem to remember it dealt with it's effectiveness.

Having looked into this further and beyond the ref. given below AND not remembering the final outcome, I just want to make sure we're doing "right" by the HESH round as there appears to be a big difference in the overall performance of the round based whether it's fired from a Smooth Bore or Rifled tank gun. From the ref. below...

"Unlike many other militaries’ armoured units, the British Army continue to use a rifled gun, as their primary tank ammunition is of the high explosive squash-head (HESH) type. HESH ammunition is used both as a general-purpose high explosive projectile, and also against other tanks and armoured vehicles. When HESH ammunition is fired from a rifled barrel, spin imparted to the projectile helps ensure a predictable distribution of the plasticised explosive filler, and thus maximises its efficiency in the anti-tank role."

I just don't know if this is a "thing" or not, as I tend at times to come across these kind of "novelties" every once in awhile.
http://characterisationexplosiveweap...-mm-tank-guns/

And as a "side bar" I've been following the Ukrainian situation from the beginning and dealing with their equipment for almost as long.

This has been on my mind for least 3-4 years now. It "crystalized" for me after watching the wonderful and predicted outcome of the Afghan National Army. As has been discussed concerning the evacuation, the combat performance of the Army was the same as the South Vietnamese once we fully pulled out.

Several NATO countries have been training all aspects of the Ukrainian forces since about the beginning of 2015. We all know what happened in 2014.

They unlike the two above, are fighting to defend their country since the start hostilities while still training to meet NATO training standards for both combat and equipment effectiveness since.

I am both, recommending and requesting consideration that the games "MORALE" for the Ukraine be increased accordingly.

I further suggest that 2020 (And this is not something I "pulled out of my...") to be an appropriate date for such a change if feasible.
https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/265244.html
https://112.international/article/se...rds-24850.html
https://www.ausa.org/articles/missio...russian-threat
https://coffeeordie.com/ukrainian-troops-train/
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_37750.htm
(For this ref. click on the "blue arrow" for further info as required at the end of this article.)

I know this is a big request that deserves from me solid refs for which I hope the above will suffice for now. THANK YOU.

Now I'll go back into my "rabbit hole" :D.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

I guess much earlier this morning that the "EXPRIENCE" would logically need to be readjusted as well for the UKRAINE as not posted in my last. :doh:

SORRY!!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

The way the code is set up 2010 is the last date for a change in EXP or MOR.
MBT goes by decade and the last Decade is 2010.

That said it had been higher then was lowered in 2018 to reflect what was known then

In the meantime, anyone wanting to play Ukraine post 2020 does have the longstanding game option of dialling in a troop quality number they think is more appropriate in Preferences and it can easily be changed in a scenario using Scenhack

Re: MBT's
 

T-72M1R view from top in actually camo green-black-sand and with skirts rear and rear-sides

https://ocdn.eu/pulscms-transforms/1...0AwsOCoTAFoTEB

Re: MBT's
 

How concerned is Russia about "Top Attack" weapons of all types? Just read the following...
But before you do, note these are in VERY limited numbers and ONLY in the Crimea.

Also, it doesn't look much stronger than "Slat Armor", good against RPG's not so good against tandem warheads with modern penetrators.
https://defence-ua.com/news/vs_rf_za...foto-4174.html
(Ukrainian source.)

I do believe someone brought this up 3-4 months back I believe. Your translator will work if needed.

ALSO, EGYPT wants to produce the K2. We already know (Or should.) that Poland passed on it in favor of the SEP V3, however, it made it to the final two (As the K2NO.) in NORWAY against the German LEO 2A7.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...ttle_tank.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Hungary

021 Leopard 2A7V - currently scheduled for 2023 (now 10/22). The name reportedly is 2A7HU.

As a temporary measure, 12 Leopard 2A4HU were delivered between 7-12/20.

BTW, Hungary bough also 24 PzH 2000HU howitzers, expected in 2022.

Somewhere in this thread 2 years ago:

Re: MBT's
 

Well, I should address the last post first, those dates are good as posted for now and I concur with them. The German LEOPARD 2A7V is still going through the OPEVAL process at this time. Going back to 2018 from my files.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/dece...o_hungary.html
https://milmag.pl/en/assembly-of-hun...pard-2a4-mbts/
https://www.armyrecognition.com/germ...ions_data.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...n_germany.html
https://militaryleak.com/2020/07/30/...ks-to-hungary/
(AGAIN, FIRST TANK delivered.)
https://defence24.com/hungarian-leop...-cost-analysis
(Note the articles above describe them as the LEOPARD 2A7+.)

A couple of the above were posted, however, since they don't have them, I'm not as concerned about posting much on them.

But I see FROM THE ABOVE POST, it looks like they have them and we're already changing dates. It should also be clear now that HUNGARY is NOT getting the LEOPARD 2A7V. LEOPARD 2A7+ is simply an improved 2A7.

NORWAY: From my last the next day this, never mind here's what I got...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...tle_tanks.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/weap...gian_army.html
(A TANK-PROTOTYPE) (Also whether it's the K2NO or LEOPARD 2A7, it's expected they'll be fielded SOMETIME in 2025.)

THAILAND: This is a "preemptive strike", before someone else sees this and determines that Thailand has retired their M-41A3 tanks. Only this unit in the article title has. From the ref.-
"The Royal Thai Army’s 6th Cavalry Regiment, 3rd Cavalry Brigade, now operates the Chinese-made NORINCO VT4 main battle tank. The cavalry battalion, which originally operated the M41A3, has now switched to other vehicles. The 8th Cavalry Battalion. 3rd Infantry Brigade, received the M48A5 tanks from the 2nd Cavalry Battalion, 2nd Infantry Brigade, the King's Guard, that has received T-84 Oplot-T main battle tanks.

At present, it is understood that the last tank cavalry battalion that still uses the M41A3 light tank is the 4th Cavalry Battalion, 1st Royal Guard Brigade, Defense Studies writes."
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe..._commando.html

I'm only here to help, I have more data than you think and would be happy to provide it in the appropriate thread as needed.

Anyway, Grandson just today started College at SCAD in Savannah(!!), Daughter is here holding up well, so far, thank God for CINCLANTHOME! And I couldn't be prouder!! :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Note, that what they already got is Leopard 2A4, named 2A4HU, not 2A7HU. They were delivered between 7-12/20 and entered service in 25th Mech Brigade.
2023 date for A7HU is according to Hungarian author's article from 2021 Polish magazine.

Speaking of Leopard 2:
Poland

26 Leopard 2A5, 31 Leopard 2PL - for several years (not known closer) Poland has some of DM-63A1 ammunition as well, so a performance (and name) of 120 mm Mesko gun (pen. 82) should be the same as appropriate German gun, but I don't know which one (120mm L44 WG01 with pen. 86?). "Mesko" is wrong name in this case, because Polish Mesko works produce only own PZ-531 APFSDS, but according to Polish military press, its performance is "probably similar" to basic DM33 round (surely not much better).

Leopard 2PL might receive a new icon, if you would bother - it has different turret (A4 with aditional armour) - https://www.konflikty.pl/aktualnosci...ia-do-wesolej/ picture:https://www.facebook.com/pancerni23/...9630339523031/

Regards
Michal

Re: MBT's
 

Some info about polish WZT (wóz zabezpieczenia technicznego) (vehicle of technical assistance) ARV for armoured units which existing in polish OOB they were widely exported and not used only by Poland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WZT

ARV

WZT-1 build on T-55 chassis since 1970 first polish indigenous engineering armoured vehicle whih have some roots in soviet BTS-2 never exported only used by Poland also as base chassis to build SP Neva SC

here nice photos of restored WZT-1 for Museum http://www.muzeumwp.pl/woz-zabezpiec...nego-wzt-1.php

<p><a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WZT-1.jpg#/media/File:WZT-1.jpg"><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/WZT-1.jpg" alt="WZT-1.jpg"></a><br>By Unknown author - &lt;a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.mon.gov.pl/pliki/Image/obrazki_do_stron/strona_76_wzt1.jpg"&gt;http://www.mon.gov.pl/pliki/Image/ob....jpg&lt;/a&gt;, <a href="//commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WZT-1.jpg" title="Attribute to Polish Ministry of National Defence">Attribution</a>, <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=3242019">Link</a></p>

WZT-2 improved variant this time build on T-55A chassis. Since 1973 in LWP. Poland have 600 of them now around 80.
Export customers

• Iraq most destroyed in war 1991
• India 196 vehicles
• Yugoslavia late 80's still 16 vehicles used by Serbia probably was sold more vehicles.

<p><a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Polish_WZT-2.jpg#/media/File:Polish_WZT-2.jpg"><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Polish_WZT-2.jpg" alt="Polish WZT-2.jpg"></a><br>By &lt;a href="https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministerstwo_Obrony_Narodowej" class="extiw" title="pl:Ministerstwo Obrony Narodowej"&gt;Ministerstwo Obrony Narodowej&lt;/a&gt; - &lt;a rel="nofollow" class="external free" href="http://www.mon.gov.pl/pliki/Image/obrazki_do_stron/strona_76_wzt2.jpg"&gt;http://www.mon.gov.pl/pliki/Image/ob....jpg&lt;/a&gt;, <a href="//commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Polish_WZT-2.jpg" title="Attribute to Polish Ministry of National Defence">Attribution</a>, <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=4489199">Link</a></p>

Nice photo of WZT-2 in LWP service
https://i.pinimg.com/600x315/91/0c/4...7c34fa5279.jpg

WZT-3/ WZT-3M introduced in 1988 on T-72M chassis after test in 1986-1988. around 20 produced for Poland used until 2003 when all polish vehicles were upgraded to WZT-3M more unified with PT-91.

• Yugoslavia buy in 1989 40 vehicles from poland with license rights to production know as M-84AI locally
• Croatia still have vehicles from former Yugo army
• Serbia still have vehicles from former Yugo army
• Kuwait they buy them together with Yugo tanks M-84A in 1989 they were from their production lines as M-84AI
• India they buy 228 in years 2004-2007 WZT-3M and in year 2011 production rights for 204 vehicles so they have totally 556 WZT-3M

here manufacturer website with data https://bumar.gliwice.pl/en/strefa-militarna/o/wzt-3m

WZT-3M in polish units new camo
https://live.staticflickr.com/4837/4...e208890087.jpgWZT-3 armoured recovery vehicle by Adrian Kot, on Flickr

WZT-3M n polish units older camo
<p><a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:POL_Warsaw_WZT-3.jpg#/media/Plik:POL_Warsaw_WZT-3.jpg"><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/POL_Warsaw_WZT-3.jpg" alt="Ilustracja"></a><br>Autorstwa &lt;a href="//commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Hiuppo" title="User:Hiuppo"&gt;Hiuppo&lt;/a&gt; - &lt;span class="int-own-work" lang="pl"&gt;Praca własna&lt;/span&gt;, <a href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0" title="Creative Commons Attribution 3.0">CC BY 3.0</a>, <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=2588332">Link</a></p>


And here in Indian service
https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ARMY/.../0612.jpg.html

WZT-4 this time based on PT-91 chassis
as for now not used by Poland only 6 vehicles in Malaysia

• Malaysia they buy them together with PT-91 they have 6 vehicles of WZT-4

here manufacturer website with data https://bumar.gliwice.pl/en/strefa-militarna/o/wzt-4

https://bumar.gliwice.pl/storage/off...O3-cropped.jpg

WZT-5 also know as ARV 3 PL
here Bumar proposing vehicle based on Leopard chassis as for now not introduced to polish army is still in development but is possible tht will be a AVR vehicle for Polish Leopard units
https://bumar.gliwice.pl/en/strefa-militarna/o/wzt-5

https://bumar.gliwice.pl/storage/off...Mj-cropped.jpg


Engineering Vehicles

B-72 Klon build in late 70's early 80's based on WZT-2 with special manipulation device and PWL-D boxes Mine-clearing line charge devices on both sides build only in small number for LWP but more just only a prototype used by Polish army.

source https://docplayer.pl/13981391-Osiagn...ieryjnego.html

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1641577944

MID (Maszyna inżynieryjno-drogowa) know also as Bizon-S
Production based this time on PT-91 parts and chassis is some why crossover of WZT-3M with WZT-4 with manipulation device. To Polish army introduced in 2000 in number 7 vehicles.

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1641578268

In 2003 also 3 vehicles introduced to Malaysian army together with PT-91 and WZT-4. Malaysia received modified version MID-M

In April 2021 also Polish army modernised their MID 5 vehicles to standard MID-M 4 was left in older version

source https://obrum.pl/modernizacja_mid/

Photo of MID-M for Polish army
https://obrum.pl/wp-content/uploads/...020-scaled.jpg

Re: MBT's
 

We already have the last one (#240).

Re: MBT's
 

I'll be brief, even for me!?! I've gotten a better picture on what's going on with the USMC MAIN ARMOR situation with this "representative" article. And I quote:

"At the time of the initial overhaul announcement, the Corps had 452 tanks at its disposal. By December 2020, 323 had been transferred to the Army. The *remaining tanks were scheduled for transfer by 2023, which included tanks in overseas storage and aboard maritime prepositioning ships, according to Marine Corps Systems Command."

By my count that currently leaves the USMC with 123 MBT's of these "survivors" it would be safe to assume that the FEP series are the ones still with us in the active/overseas storage/prepositioning ships. All others should have an END of DEC 2020

But "On the Fly" recommend the following changes for the FEP.

1. UNIT 464 leave as is for now.

2. UNITS 465 & 466 CHANGE/END to DEC 2023 IAW article vice DEC 2020//

3. Again all others should be gone by DEC 2020. This, however, DOES NOT include Engineering models.

If you want me to "comb" through the USMC OOB for "stragglers" you need to let me know.

Remember these service times publications get their information from the military component they represent for their active duty service members and DOD civilian workers that read these papers.
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/new...ing-its-armor/

I'm off to see the wizard!?! I just don't know about that "OZ" thing though!?! ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

846 is a "104 CS MBT " M1A1HC FEP-T and 847 is a 59 MBTM1A1HC FEP-T that exist to 12/2025

Those are the only ones that still extend the MBT and CS MBT formations to 12/2025 ( Mount a plow on the front and the are " Engineering vehicles")


464 is a UC 106 used in the "Urban MBT" formations

Re: MBT's
 

For Ukraine...(OBAT 079)

Per Wikipedia
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Ground_Forces)

Following heavy tank losses in the 2014 war + cold war, a lot of recapitalization of the Ukrainian tank fleet has been going on -- they were forced to bring back the T-80 due to losses in T-64s.

T-80BV M19 - T-80BV modernized with the same basic package as the T-64BV-2017 (Unit 030 T-64 Bulat M17). No official designation, but since the first unit was delivered in January 2019...I'm going with T-80BV M19. As of March 27, 2020 over 88 updated T-80BVs have up been delivered to the Ukrainian military since January 2019 at a rate of circa 6 tanks per month.

Re: MBT's
 

Done. With new Icons

Re: MBT's
 

The K2 and Leo 2A7 are currently being tested in Norway, if our newspapers are to be believed. It has not been without discussion among Norway's top brass, as some of them considers tanks to be obsolete.

Re: MBT's
 

POLAND: The sale of the M1A2C (SEP V3) has apparently been approved pending sign off by the President. Don't get too excited, Para 5 will put that into perspective...
"Implementation of this proposed sale will require approximately (22) U.S. Government and (52) U.S. contractor representatives to travel to Poland for a duration of up to five years to support equipment fielding and training. "

1. These tanks will have to be built without adversely interfering with our current Army production requirements.

2. These same tanks will have to BE RESET to replace our more advanced electronics (FCS etc.) and have the DU armor removed
and replaced by either with an Applique or Ceramic armor package, normally of the foreign sales end user's discretion.

3. I would expect that a foreign sale M1A2C (SEP3) armor package would "fall in" about where the USA M1A2 SEP armor package is. Also TI/GSR 45 would make sense as well.

This will take time. We are HIGHLY unlikely to see Poland getting these fielded before DEC 2025.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...to_poland.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

The following is a "quick look" of the known tanks involved in the Ukrainian War.
ISSUES POTENIALLY:

Russian - T-80U carrying 7 more rounds of ammo versus the T-80BV.

Ukraine - The issue appears to be the type ATGW some of their tanks carry versus what I believe we show in the OOB. There seems to be more reliance on the Russian ones (Which they had several 100's of or more.) vice their own ones. A random check on http://www.military-today.com/ a Ukrainian based site seems to support this conclusion as well.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukra..._conflict.html

We've just made (28 Feb.) a major decision/move from about a little more than an hour up the road from me. They should be on the way now.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/anal...o_europe_.html

They should have the M1A2 SEP V2.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

They should have as in they don't but they should or They should have as in that's what they likely have

https://www.armyrecognition.com/imag...to_Europe_.jpg

.. somebody tell me what version is pictured here. I'm sure there is rivet someplace that is the clue but IDK where to find it

Re: MBT's
 

SEP2, the CROWs system box is the giveaway.

Re: MBT's
 

The "latter", needless to say, I hit the shower as soon as I posted my last. Felt it was but didn't have time to verify it.

My concern was that it wasn't a M1A2 SA which were both, finishing the OPEVAL and were later for a time posted at Fort Stewart Ga. as well.

I did post about the OPEVAL issue during the time period leading up to the ABRAMS "rabbit hole" in verifying what ABRAMS tanks were actually still in service with the USA.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

I need to find the article, but back in 95 they tested ERA on an Abrams and the results were not that impressive. I am wondering if given how things are going with the ATGMs that are being used more of late if they won't come back to this or go a different route to add another layer of protection for the next version of the Abrams or which every new tank is set to replace it?

Re: MBT's
 

This is making me feel really good about that JUN/OCT 2023 date for the M1A2C (SEP V3) the following is the second unit to receive this tank. The Spartan Brigade, 2ABCT, US 3rd Infanty Division is getting them now along with the modernized M2A3 BRADLEY just up the road from me (~1hr.+) at Ft. Stewart Ga.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe..._bradleys.html

The first unit as posted by me was the and as taken from the below ref... “Greywolves” of the 3rd Battalion, 8th Cavalry Regiment, 3rd Armored Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division are the first US Army unit to operate the M1A2C, the latest version of the M1 Abrams main battle tank. They received their M1A2Cs at Fort Hood, the 1st Cavalry Division’s home base. " this occurred in Jul 2020. The update I have in my files was from this past OCT 2021 that they were conducting firing testing/qualifications.
https://www.overtdefense.com/2020/07...operate-m1a2c/
https://www.army.mil/article/238575/...w_abrams_tanks

This good news for us we're getting can't say the same for the Russians and their ARMATA. Wouldn't be ironic if we see the VT4 in Ukraine? :eek:

Nothing would surprise me at this time. :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

The ISD we have now is Jan 2022. Should I push it back ?

Re: MBT's
 

Leave it alone for now, I saw the same in game. Though NOT from Army sources, I'm seeing a very small number of sites stating it has reached FOC. Some of this I've already "deconflicted" simply by the firing qualifications ongoing last OCT. as I just posted from an Army source.

As you well know, this an issue we've had to deal with more times, it seems, than we can count in the past.

For sure of the tanks, I listed almost ten years ago now, that I expected to see before games end, I know we WILL NOT see the following:
LeClerc XLR and CHALLENGER 3.

In the category of HIGHLY UNLIKELY the ARMATA, ALTAY (Towards end of last year, they were seeking a contract to buy engines from S. Korea which I believe is now completed. I've stated many times over the years this was a major impediment for this tank to overcome.) and the ARJUN Mk2 which of the three mentioned might have the "best shot" to get in. Go figure!?! :shock:

And finally, the SURPRISE was the German LEOPARD 2A7V awesome piece of engineering and a game changer in the real world. That being said the unit receiving it WILL NOT be fully equipped with it until APRIL 2022. see below ref. 2 for further breakdown and my thoughts on this tank. They deploy for 2 years in OCTOBER 2022 as a NATO Rapid Reaction Force 2022/24
https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/organis...om-band-146788
(They moved fast.)
https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/organis...truppe-5220262
(Upper right note date of article 16SEP2021.
Other 8 due by APRIL 2022.
Allowing for ongoing training/qualification and of those crews JUNE 2022 better for FOC.)

Thats all the tank status I have in a "nutshell" hope it helps for your planning.

Washout: Leave M1A2C alone for this year.

Tracking rest after LeClerc and CHALLENGER 3 (Not happening).

And finally, CHANGE START to JUN 2022 for LEOPARD 2A7V.

Back to work today. :smirk:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

If anyone finds expert analysis ( NOT "joes blog" analysis unless "joe" is renowned for accurate analysis) on the availability and use of Arena and Shtora systems in Ukraine please post the link.

Andy and I are both thinking that perhaps we have them a bit too effective in the game and I am still of the mind that these are not as common as we were led to believe

HOWEVER

This

https://defense-update.com/20130925_...-rae-2013.html
New Arena-3 APS Debut At RAE-2013

shows this

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1647366498

and that IS what's shown here on the right side of the turret

https://images.newrepublic.com/ae143...958&q=65&dpr=1


That is also what is mounted on the Photo of MID-M in post#1263

Re: MBT's
 

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/germa...-tanks.718103/

Germany orders Israel’s Trophy active protection system for its Leopard 2 tanks

That was posted last year so thinking I need to make a change to the 7V at least

Re: MBT's
 

Small idea, what about treating each level of the EW for tanks similar to smoke dischargers?

Right now if you want just close in defense you get 2 and those are popped off by HMGs and other things beyond missiles and main gun rounds. Same for level 3. So what if it was done similar to the smoke dischargers in the game?

Re: MBT's
 

Leopard 2 TROPHY order.

Mine from February 2021 ...
Ref 1/Para 4
"KMW told Janes on 23 February that it would install the systems on Leopard 2A6M3 tanks through to 2023. A KMW image of the tank after the upgrade (Will be.) designated it as the Leopard 2A7A1."
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/n...ehr-leopard-2s
(Later in the morning added ref. What happens when you're tired? :o)

Mine from March 2021 ...
Ref 2/Para 1
"The 23 Trophy systems and 586 interceptors that Rafael has agreed to sell to Germany will cost $48 million."

Last Para. Just read it. this is in its "infancy" at this point.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...rd_2_mbts.html

This is an item to be TRACKED with no further action required at this time. You (and Andy both.) have enough "headaches" at this time, with no need to make a migraine headache. :sick:

Didn't know I had a medical degree did you!?! Well I did sleep at a Marriott (Not a Holiday Inn Express guy!) a couple of weeks ago. :p

Bottomline that's the last I heard about TROPHY for LEOPARDS.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Added that JANE's ref. to last. Tired then and now. Crawling back into the rack. :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

THE FOLLOWING ARE NOT ACTIONABLE!! UPDATE/INFO ONLY!!

A little reverse order filing based on significance both militaria and politically.

ITALY: Keeping them relevant to 2030/35 the C1 ARIETE is currently in trials to determine which or both packages will constitute the final upgrade. From the article...
"Citing information from the "War Thunder" forum, the C1 Ariete AMV program will feature 3 prototypes at first, the AMV PT1, which will feature improvements to the hull, the PT2 which will feature improvements to the turret, and finally the PT3 which will incorporate improvements to both the turret and hull." We are LIKELY to see this.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/weap...ttle_tank.html

BAHRAIN/INDIA: I just posted my thoughts on the within my last two posts. If this gets done, it'll just bolster my prediction for the ARJUN Mk 2 going into service with India. As a reminder, the Indian Army wouldn't compete any version of their T-72 tanks against the ARJUN. And it dominated both the Russian and Indian built T-90S tanks. Leading an Israeli military observer to call/praise the ARJUN after the competition the "Desert Ferrari" Still feel LIKELY to see this, more so if this deal gets done.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...tle_tanks.html

TAIWAN: Looks like this is moving forward. Taiwan is to receive 2 M1A2T tanks stateside in June 2021. These will be used to train the trainers from TAIWAN. These WILL NOT be as good as the as our M1A2 SEP V2 as this article purports it to be. I already know what modifications to make against the M1A2 SEP V2 I submitted a few years back. Delivery According to the Taiwanese Ministry of National Defense, 38 tanks will be delivered in 2024, 42 in 2025, and 28 in 2026.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...tle_tanks.html

WE NEED TO WAIT ON THIS LAST. Who knows what was said yesterday between Biden and Xi? The real question is, what price is to be paid to keep China from supporting Russia in its war with the Ukraine? It's not the first time we've been down this road with tanks for Taiwan. We haven't sent them any in decades.

ALRIGHT...
Last Order from you know who if you follow me...
300 M-60A3 Patton-2 tank Ordered 1996 Delivered 1998-2002 (300) Second-hand; $223 m deal; M-60A3TTS version

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

OK.... that link specifically says


So........ this long delayed unit should have LAHAT ?

Re: MBT's
 

That was the original requirement going back to the ARJUN however due to technical issues that didn't happen. The ARJUN Mk1A was also to have an ATGM capability as well. The ARJUN Mk 2
is ready to support an ATGM however whether it'll be the LAHAT or their own is still up for debate. They just last fall completed tests of an ATGM similar to the JAVALIN with a variant of the same, I believe, to begin testing this year if not already.

My bottom-line: We still don't know if we'll see this tank at all, though recent information as posted is more in favor of it happening. But when?

You and I well know Indias overall history of their tank procurement and especially concerning the ARJUN series. I believe the last date change we settled on was sometime late this year I believe.

If it is and to give us some "breathing room", I would at this point, NOT include ATGM and push back the START of the following to DEC 2024 for the following...ARJUN Mk 2, ARMATA (And associated IFV.) and ALTAY for the same reason of breathing room and to deal with all the STILL unresolved issues those projects have yet to get well, resolved.

I'd rather "go long" and be wrong then short and having to keep fixing these START dates that we've been doing for how many years now, for these tanks in particular.

I know you know that I've been watching these tanks for ten years or more and nothing's changed but the dates for various reasons. ;)

Lunch, Shower and Work. The rest of you have a GREAT DAY!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Pat, no matter what we do , no matter how we try to estimate how things will develop it is a drop dead certainty that

1/ someone will disagree and **MAYBE** actually present a good reason why backed up with sources but probably not
2/ Somewhere down the road " reality" will paint a different picture

FWIW both Indian units 21 and 22 now carry 6 LAHAT

Re: MBT's
 

Don,
Well, I think we can agree we both have made some valid points in our combined last two posts. And I know when the time comes, you'll make the changes as required.

You've never in the past "accused" me of lacking in providing a sufficient number of references on anything I've submitted in the past, especially when it pertains to those submitted more "formally" in my Fastboat Patch Post Thread. Though on rare occasions been informed of the opposite, as in "too many"!?! :D

How could you possibly have too many!?! :rolleyes:

We've lived with it this long, I guess I can keep that up until we're done, I'll ASSUME in the Spring of 2026 with the last patch.

So even now I like to ride a carousal once in a while, something relaxing about it to me, maybe that's a better frame of mind to be while doing this work as my second job as it feels at times. We'll just have to keep reaching for the brass ring to equipment, dates etc. etc. as good as we can get it.

That's what motivated me to do this in the first place, I can't even remember how long ago now, it's just sad to me it's taken a war to get me motivated again though.

It seems I've posted more since JAN then I did all last year.

Long way to say, I CONCUR and THANKS to ANDY and you for doing the HEAVY LIFTING.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

No matter how good your tanks or aren't, if the crews aren't trained and lead properly you will at least in the onset of hostilities pay the price. But I'll leave that to people smarter than me to present that discussion...
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...tail&FORM=VIRE
https://video.foxnews.com/v/6301297691001#sp=show-clips

Both are worth the time to watch and listen.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Having been part of a training of Afghanistan Army tankers, yeah...the state of and about how well trained the crews and their support is, yes that is VERY important. I have never seen a group of grown men being unable to grasp simple things like putting fuel in a vehicle or putting the correct fuel into a vehicle. The point I am getting at is many countries do not train their military to any standard beyond looking great during parades. Also, we (the West) need to stop thinking that everyone else trains their military as we do.

Re: MBT's
 

I have reviewed and in some cases revised the EXP and MOR ratings and they now also include the 2020s... previous to this it was 2010 -> but what I found ( or more importantly did NOT find ) is any info on what is important to the game and that is comparative training or troops and the quality and experience of NCO's and mid-low level officers.

Nothing..... nada

What I do find are "big" picture ratings like a "pwrindex" which means NOTHING to the game. It was a hugely frustrating exercise just like it was at the start and every time since.

There may be anecdotal stories of how an army trains or how often but finding things like that is scarce

Re: MBT's
 

True. A game is not going to show how troops who have good training break the second the bullets fly or how ones with no training stand and fight. Those things are very hard to put into numbers. I think you guys are doing amazing work though.

Re: MBT's
 

Want to enjoy the rest of this evening but, I came across another tank that was on my list which I kind've felt wasn't gaining any real traction as far as getting into the game especially after the MERKAVA 4b WINDBREAKER entered service (A planned interim tank to the following.) but now that's changed!! MERKAVA 5 BARAK!! :party: Cmon, you had to know that was coming!
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...e_by_2023.html

One of my favorite tanks (Because I spent over half a page of revisions to it a few years ago in you know where.) the STRV 122 series appears to be getting what I believe is a NEW tank round the 120mm M339 that Israeli tanks now have.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe..._122_mbts.html
https://elbitsystems.com/landing/wp-...nks_15_Web.pdf

Well, can you guess what's coming next!?! :shock: :p :D :ahh::rock::banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

Well I'm sure Don will at this point will agree, this would be a good time for to start watching "Viking Valhalla" personally I blame Ancestry (You know who.) for updated their DNA tech and databases, 17% Swedish!?! Someday I'll tell the story behind it from my Mom from her Grandmother during the bombing campaign over Cologne Germany.

Regards,
Pat
:capt::capt: (Sometimes better than one.)

Re: MBT's
 

Here we go again!?!

This was visited within a handful of years ago OR LESS, because someone had issues, we chased this down to "the dirt under a paved road" I like that :D anyway, I also have numbers for the T-55.

T-55:
https://weaponsystems.net/system/631-T-55AM
(With COMPLETE armor values.)
https://weaponsystems.net/system/632-T-55AMV
https://weaponsystems.net/system/634-T-62M
(This tank is sometimes confused with the T-55 the distinction between them is in the bore evacuator and road wheel spacing - verified.)
https://weaponsystems.net/system/887-115mm%20U-5TS
(T-62 MG.)
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldw...oviet_t-55.php
(Yes, I see the disclaimer image that a little honesty from a legitimate website. Also, a pretty good foreign data section. The numbers are below that.

Steel is Steel, I think most will understand this is common to most serial production tanks and upgrades versions of the same as plainly stated in ref. 1.

Don, I have a request to add to the many you both have been getting lately, my birthday is on 28 June hawse about the patch being released for my birthday!!!????!!! :D :) :cool: you know what's NEXT (Kind've obvious I guess?)... :birthday: :party: :doh: :doh: (These last two are Andy and Don getting a headache.)

So, in the short term may I suggest the following...
Connect via whatever, seat down and enjoy some :popcorn: (Nuts are optional.), have plenty of these :cheers:, don't get :sick: and :puke: finally if we ever see the patch released :rolleyes:, let me be the first to...

THANK YOU BOTH FOR YOUR PATIENCE TO ALL AND WHAT I FEAR TO BE ONE OF YOUR "HARDEST" WORKING YEARS. WELL DONE TO YOU BOTH AND GOD HELP YOU BOTH I FEAR A COMEBACK FROM SOMEONE ELSE. here's to you BOTH with as MUCH RESPECT as you've shown me over the years. :clap::clap::clap::first::first::clap::clap::clap:

We really need to do something about all these E-M-O-E-JOES!?! MAYBE NEXT YEAR!?! :doh:

Someone's getting a VERY numbified mouth later today and I'm glad it won't be me!! ;)

Regards,
Pat
Oh yeah, celebrating another successful inspection/exercise by our combined team at work so...
:capt: :capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Thanks

Yes, you really, really. Really need to lift that finger after the first one ( really.......)

Re: MBT's
 

While looking into some T-80 issues I found this.
https://defence-blog.com/russian-t-8...ve-armour/?amp

How easy it is to stuff them with heavy stock paper. As has been discussed elsewhere.

It won't be hard (Assuming some efficiency is in place to track these.) to go back and figure out who was involved in sabotaging those ERA bags. Note the timeline and limited use tanks that apparently have them.

It's now 0230 quite awhile after the above. I got up to Page 35 looking for those missile posts, so my guess of ~3 years might not be to far off.
I did come across some posts more into the first mention in the 1st and 3rd ones listed the rest are deeper.

Post 164 RELIKT ERA
Post 232 "Deep" VARTA Soft Kill (OPLOTs)
Post 281 SPIKE LOS, I think this was brought up for Ukraine? NO they don't.
Post 301 "Deep" Seems I got the ball rolling on these the T-72B3 which is thought to be the most prevalent Russian tank in Ukraine and ARENA-E

I gotta go back to work this afternoon, I'm sorry but I'm done.

Hope some of this helps.

After all those pages I've forgotten about how long ago I started tracking some of this equipment that's still NOT at FOC.

Sometimes you need to look back, to look ahead.

Good Night!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

My last post covered pages 1 - 35 of this thread.

Because of newer information in some cases not yet posted (Ariete as an example.) I'm reposting some items. Also, there'll be "PROCESS related " posts to benefit newer and maybe some older players to understand what goes into some of the decisions made about certain aspects of the game, i.e., how and when we got beyond TI/GSR 40. Plus, what we knew then that truthfully hasn't changed in the present or will in the near future. I leave that to you the reader to decide.

I will not offer nor engage in any commentary on any of the following the data that is good still and most was "actionable" when submitted. As the reader should note the page count, dates, what pages are left to go through and finally the information I still hold unposted that will change very little from what's below. I have, as with the last post I HAVE BOTH SCANNED EVERY POST TO DATE AND READ VERY ONE OF THE FOLLOWING SELECTED ONES AS WELL.

The following cover Pages 35 - 65 of this thread.
Post 363 ITALY ARIETE C2/C3 were not executed.

Post 381 POLAND 2PL

Post 400 Mine Protected Tanks See also 394 & 401

Post 409 Hard and Soft Kill (Data posted was taken directly from the now dead links. So much for "Nothings dead on the internet.!?!"

Post 415 DU Armor Started.

Post 423 T-80 visited again, you HAVE TO continually TRACK, TRACK, TRACK.

Post 435 DU Armor

Posts 447/449/450 TI/GSR & HOW WE GOT THERE.

Post 473 "Deep Miner"

Post 490 Process

Post 519 One example of "How Far Have I Gone"

Post 555 Patience

Post 564 Italy ARIETE Again

Post 577 T-55/T-62/T-80

Post 584 T-55

Post 587 Go Back & Check Data

Post 646 Plausible Deniability

Post 651 Ukrainian ZASLON

Post 658 Ukrainian ZASLON

Was put together about four nights ago, my apologies for the delay in posting.

For those who really challenged me and supported me through those last 65 pages, besides the obvious, John (IMP), Suhiir, MARCELLO, Mark Sheppard and the ORIGINAL MRAP Club that thread is where I "Cut my Teeth" out here.

Later today will be "Another Day". ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Pat

HONESTLY....... I do not know WTF you expect us to do with that information

I DO know for absolute certain that I do not have the time nor the inclination to go back to each and every one of those posts and guess what it is you are trying to point out or how it is supposed to be applied to the game

There are not enough hours in my day as it is

The simple bottom line fact is..... when confronted with a mass of data like that I just move on so it is totally self-defeating to post something like that so save yourself a lot of time and trouble as I personally do not have the time to wade through it all and IDK who else any of it is relevant to.

OK?

If you have a specific point to make then make it short and sweet otherwise save yourself ( and me ) a lot of time and aggravation.

Re: MBT's
 

The following was an item that was brought up as an issue needing further clarification on Ukraine's ATGW missiles. This source will be/is better than what we have because it's made by...
https://ukroboronprom.com.ua/

Under the "umbrella" state arms supplier UKROBORONSERVICE (Russian counterpart Rosoboronexport) both listed below if you want to buy a tank.
https://en.uos.ua/
https://roe.ru/eng/

Here specifically are all things ATGW's from Ukraine.
https://en.uos.ua/produktsiya/vooruz...kombat-i-konus

Highlights of KOMBAT as used on the following tanks: "...T-72, T-80UD and OPLOT main battle tanks equipped with fire control systems compatible with it."

"The missile’s tandem warhead enables it to defeat targets fitted with explosive reactive armor with a first-round hit probability of 0.8-0.9. " If you "split the difference" that makes the minimum average hit probability at 85%.

This is important from Para. 2 ...
"The KOMBAT has four-fold-out fins at its extreme rear and offers an effective range of 5,000 m which it covers in 17 seconds (That's fast in the world of ATGW's at that range). With a mass overall of 30 kilos, the missile is far heavier than Russian counterparts, such as the 125mm REFLEX with a maximum range of 5,000 meters, and the BASTION which fires from 100mm rifled guns to ranges of up to 4,000 meters. A tandem shaped-charge warhead makes up almost half of the KOMBAT’s length, allowing a heavier explosive payload to be delivered to the target. The warhead weighs 9kg, including a 3kg explosive charge (it is by far heavier than the warhead featured in the REFLEX), contributing considerably to the missile’s armor piercing capability, which, again, much exceeds that of the REFLEX.

It is important the reader understands that the Ukraine had operated these missiles (REFLEX) for a VERY long time and still does as far as I can determine. Just like also they built those tanks for the Russian army that are using them now in country, a little "irony" there.

Quick notes: 5000m effective range/3kg explosive shaped charge tandem hollow charge warhead/750mm armor penetration behind ERA. You can "substitute after it penetrates the ERA, it'll still go through 750mm of steel armor. I wouldn't want to be in a tank without any ERA, because that would probably be your last day in that tank.

All other ATGW missiles are listed on in the right-hand column including helo, 105mm, 100mm and other systems including 30mm ZTM-1/ZTM-2 AC.
https://en.uos.ua/produktsiya/vooruz...kombat-i-konus


The above was originally posted on August 29, 2017 @ 12:07am Page 68 Post 676. I verified the sites are current, though posted before in other past posts the Russian sites were added this fine early morning. :rolleyes: The data has not changed, though as I seem to remember a couple of items weren't service at the time of posting.I could be wrong about that though. All weapons have been in service since 2017 or before.

Point Made.

Before I go, look what I found? You'll notice one of the sources for the "doubters" is SIPRI, imagine that from the Congressional Research Service. Anyway, a good read on the Russian weapons industry ordered by Congress as things were heating up late last Fall in the Ukraine.
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R46937

Well, it's 0350 here which begs the question, do you know where your bed is? I'm going to try to find mine. . :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

I think I saw a Russian tank that supposedly is operating in Ukraine that I haven't seen until MAYBE this evening. At this time, I will not divulge the type I believe I saw. I will say it might be a T-80 type, however, I feel it's something else based on only the view from the news feed.

You have to go to where you can watch "The CBS Evening News" w/Norah O'Donnel for 4 April 2022. You'll need to be ready at the 6m 30s mark to freeze/or slow the video before the 6m 38s mark. The tank in ? will be moving through a bombed out residential area from Right to Left on your screen. Also note a couple of trees between you and the tank as it's moving.

I'll provide my answer in a couple of nights. In fairness Don will be informed before that. It's not a game just seeking input/opinions on the matter.

Saw a Ukrainian tank (T-72) towing on the road (CNN) a undamaged fairly new looking Russian tank that it seems the crew just abandoned for whatever reason possibly just ran out of fuel. It was filmed in Eastern Ukraine. Crazy! They didn't even attempt to disable it.

For you Scenario and Campaign builders, I'm also reposting the following here. This is normally a paid subscription item for FREE for I don't know how long.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/n...ukraine-crisis

I better get to watching Vikings Valhalla or CINCLANTHOME will ensure all future posts will be coming from there!?! :viking:

Regards,
Pat
:capt: