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-   -   OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.(Edited2) (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=21196)

NullAshton October 19th, 2005 09:54 AM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Bah. That beat up old thing?

Jack Simth October 19th, 2005 09:58 AM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
A simple (2nd level) Clerical Make Whole will take care of that aspect. Of course, any nightmares and your claws will make mincemeat of the thing....

NullAshton October 19th, 2005 10:02 AM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Hmmm, claws are a lot of trouble to have.

Violist October 19th, 2005 12:54 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Did we decide that you can keep your shapeshifted form while asleep? You could change yourself into a claw-less form while sleeping http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Hmm, I never did get around to having that mended, did I? Saved my life, that thing did. Bloody rocks and pits... *grumble*.

NullAshton October 19th, 2005 01:44 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Meh, then I'd have to dress every night and undress every morning. Kinda weird.

Violist October 19th, 2005 01:50 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Maybe we could put a leather cover over the mattress? Really though, you'd think the elfanoids among us would be more needing of a mattress than the draconic ones.

douglas October 19th, 2005 02:13 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Dragons just need a different kind of mattress - a big heap of coins and gems. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

NullAshton October 19th, 2005 02:36 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Mmm, gold...

Jack Simth October 19th, 2005 08:30 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Quote:

NullAshton said:
Meh, then I'd have to dress every night and undress every morning. Kinda weird.

Only if you assume a form where clothing is expected; a monitor lizard, for example, doesn't really need much in the way of coverings.

NullAshton October 19th, 2005 09:18 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Bah. Then I'd be really tiny. And people would mistake me for a pet again. I don't like being a pet.

Jack Simth October 19th, 2005 09:47 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
A Monitor Lizard is Medium, not tiny.

NullAshton October 19th, 2005 10:02 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
You know, alter self would come in handy several times.

Violist October 19th, 2005 10:53 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Multiclass to sorceror a few times http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Or ask Kaylin to cast more polymorphs on you...

Jack Simth October 19th, 2005 11:29 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Quote:

NullAshton said:
You know, alter self would come in handy several times.

For Kibin, it would be rather redundant - you have something akin to Polymorph Self at will - if you wanted to, you could imitate Elorin (Or Kaylin, or Jason, or Derrel) quite effectively. Mind you, you wouldn't have their stats, but it'd be a simple Disguise roll with a +10 bonus for being a magical disguise.

Violist October 19th, 2005 11:42 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Hmmm... could you imitate me so that next time a monster attacks me, it mistakenly attacks a big tough dragony thing instead of a wimpy little wizard? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Jack Simth October 19th, 2005 11:54 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Whether it's possible depends on how much you invest in the deception - with a lot of your equipment, you only have one such, and it would pretty much only be Kaylin's physical form duplicated. The rest would need to be done with Illusions, Polymorph Any Object (imitation magical equipment - even registers as magical!) or loaned equipment.

Violist October 20th, 2005 12:22 AM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
That gives me an idea... if I used mislead, could I then cast spells without getting targetted, or would monsters be smart enough to figure out where it's coming from?

douglas October 20th, 2005 12:33 AM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Depends on how obvious the origin of the spell you cast is. A Lightning Bolt coming from your fingertips is a dead giveaway as to where you are, of course, but a Summon Monster just making something appear with no apparent link to the caster would probably fool most monsters. For a Fireball, I'd require a spot check for the monsters to notice where the bead came from, and a bonus to the DC to notice it didn't come from the image if it originated near or even passed through the image. Of course this is all just my take on things, Jack's the DM.

Violist October 20th, 2005 12:37 AM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
That's kind of what I figured, it'd be reasonable. Spells with a verbal component would also have a Listen check, but probably with some kind of penalty... is there any specifier on how loudly you have to speak, or is an arcane mumble OK?

Jack Simth October 20th, 2005 12:37 AM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Depends; casting Silent spells? Verbal components pose a bit of a problem for stealth - what with the speaking in a strong voice; sure, the illusion says exactly the same... but one voice comes from a spot the critter can see, and an identicle voice comes from a spot he can't... knowing deceptive magics exist, what's a likely choice for an intelligent opponent? Casting spells without an obvious effect? Spells such as Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Enervation, and Chain Lighting (to name a few) specify that there is a visual effect emanating from you (bead flys from you, bolt starts at your fingertips, black ray, stroke from fingertips, and the like) which isn't going to be hidden, and anything with eyes to see can tell what square it comes from.

Mind you, you could invisibly move after casting a spell, and no longer be where your location was given away.... or you could prepare Silenced spells that don't have such location-oriented displays.... in which case, it would work quite well.

Edit: a little late, but there is one question I can answer:
Quote:

Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance to spoil any spell with a verbal component that he or she tries to cast.

(emphasis added)

To cast a spell with verbal components, you must speak in a strong voice; the base DC to hear people speaking (a good start for you casting a Verbal component) is 0 (distance modifiers apply...); the DC to pinpoint the square is 20 over that. So DC 20 for the demon you are standing right next to when you cast the spell to pinpoint your location. DC 30 if you are 100 feet away; 40 if 200; 50 if 300; if you are at the limits of the range of your Fireball (at caster level 15th, that's 1000 feet), I'm unlikely to even bother rolling.

Violist October 20th, 2005 01:00 AM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Hmm, strong voice. I can understand with the ray spells, but as douglas points out, a tiny bead is going to be hard to see, would there be some DC associated with a Spot check for that?

Next time there's a chance, I should get that scroll... this could be very useful in keeping me alive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

narf poit chez BOOM October 20th, 2005 01:00 AM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
...Uh...I can tell within five feet where someone is from sound at a considerably farther distance than five feet.

At the very least, I can tell direction.

Jack Simth October 20th, 2005 01:11 AM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
D&D sound mechanics don't make sense; really, they don't:

A battle has a base DC of -5. At 260 feet, the "average person" can't hear it at all (DC 21). At 300 feet, only wise individuals or those who have spent the time to learn to listen can tell it's there (and even then, only rarely - DC 25). At 400 feet, almost nobody can hear it (DC 35 - for a 20 to work, you need +15 in modifiers; 18 Wis and 11 ranks - an 8th level character!)

A lightning bolt strikes the ground. The thunder can be heard quite reliably and recognizeably in real life for miles. Assuming a base listen check DC of -1000, an "average" D&D character can hear it while sleeping on a roll of 1 at a distance of 9,910 feet. An awake character on roll of 20, 10,200 feet. A sound that has just traveled for well over a mile goes from waking everyone up to barely perceptable by someone extremely lucky in the space of 300 feet. A 20th level Cleric with Wisdom 30 and max ranks in Listen (+33 to check) can't hear it at all (roll of 20 fails) after 10,540 feet.

I'm not quite ready to start house-ruling it yet, though.

narf poit chez BOOM October 20th, 2005 12:39 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Why not use decibels as the base for a number to divide the DC by?

douglas October 20th, 2005 01:14 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
The DC to notice a sound at all should increase with either the log or the square root of the distance, or maybe even the log of the square root since I think that's how decibels decrease with distance. The DC to pinpoint the source location should increase a whole lot faster, though. The DC to hear thunder might reasonably be -10 a mile away, but no one could possibly pinpoint the exact 5 ft square the lightning bolt hit from that distance, so a flat +20 modifier to the DC to make it DC 10 makes no sense.

NullAshton October 20th, 2005 01:28 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
How about loud sounds you can detect the general direction of, but not the exact location?

Jack Simth October 20th, 2005 10:35 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
As I said; the D&D sound mechanics don't make Real Life sense.

I'm actually rather familiar with sound; Decibals are a lot like the Richter Scale for earthquakes - 30 decibals is 10 times the volume of 20 decibals, 20 decibals is 10 times the volume of 10 decibals. Theoretically, you could have a -2,860 decibal sound; in practice, why bother?

Sound is a form of radiant energy; when uncontained, unchanneled, and unabsorbed, it spreads out and weakens at the square of the distance (surface area of a sphere, specifically....) so that something 10 times further away from the source gets 1% of the same energy (e.g., if someone at 10 feet hears 100 decibals, someone at 100 feet hears 80; someone at 1,000 feet hears 60). In practice, though, that theoretical model simply doesn't work; anything soft (people, grass, foilage, cloth...) soaks up the sound; anything irregular (people, ground, furniture, trees) breaks up the sound so that it gets fuzzy. Large, flat, hard surfaces reflect the sound (and large, hard, curved surfaces can be used to do interesting tricks - ever whispered to someone on the other side of the room, had your taget hear you, but not someone directly between? Can be done, easily, in the right room from the right spots).

The D&D mechanics, while not real-world realistic, are simple enough to use and are reasonably balanced (don't give one character type much of an advantage over another) under most circumstances. Gives some bizzare results when applied to real-world situations, but that's okay; D&D isn't the real world.

Violist October 21st, 2005 07:05 AM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
By the way, in-game, I'm kind of curious as to why everyone is so willing to go along with me to this mysterious far-off land in search of arcane knowledge, when this sorceror is right nearby? Is it because the only way we'll catch up is by increasing our skill, or are there some other motivations?

Just doesn't seem quite reasonable for everyone to say "Oh hey, this elven wizardess chick we've known for about a week wants to travel a thousand miles across an ocean, desert, mountains, in pursuit of knowledge that we can't benefit from unless she stays with us." Not that I'm encouraging dissent. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

NullAshton October 21st, 2005 08:57 AM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Well. We could... get someone in that wizards place to teleport the sorcerer to that place? I dunno. Maybe the sorcerer decided he wanted to make holes in his fireballs too.

Violist October 21st, 2005 09:13 AM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Bah. If he's casting Fireballs... you're in for a rough ride http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Jack Simth October 21st, 2005 09:59 AM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Well, we don't know where he is... and he teleports to us... so one location is just as good as any other for trapping him....

NullAshton October 21st, 2005 11:46 AM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Yeah. And how many of those archmages do you betcha have dimensional anchor prepared?

Violist October 21st, 2005 01:05 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Just for him, Dimensional Anchor is on every standard spell list I have...

narf poit chez BOOM October 21st, 2005 01:50 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Because wazzername is a PC. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Violist October 21st, 2005 03:12 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Hehe... good point, but you'd think Archmages would be smart enough... no wait, if the good guys in charge were smart, bad guys would never get power...

narf poit chez BOOM October 21st, 2005 03:56 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
That presumes that the bad guys are stupid.

The truth is that 100% safety is a myth. Your brains could be blown out tommorrow.

Most people have trouble with this.

Violist October 21st, 2005 05:49 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
I take solace in the fact that the probability is very small, and also if I allow my mind to be paralysed by the thought, I'd never get anything done. Plus, if it did happen, all the worrying would be in vain anyways. Also, if it happened tomorrow I'd miss some of the D&D session, so I can't imagine that. Sunday, now, I'm free then for some brain reduction http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

douglas October 21st, 2005 06:09 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Heh, I finally got around to reading the log of last session and was quite amused by the many failed attempts to kill the bunny, none of which would have happened if I'd been there. First round, I would have followed up Kaylin's successful Mind Fog with Greater Command: Halt! (DC 23, hard to make with only +5 after Mind Fog's penalty), and my Holy Bow would have gone right through its DR/good and regeneration/good. Oh well, it was much more amusing this way.

Does the newly Animated wagon count as a "creature" (not necessarily living)? If so, it's a valid target for Wind Walk, and I can drastically speed up the rest of the journey.

My next opportunity to pick up Hero's Feast will be at 16th level, unless Kaylin helps out with a Limited Wish. For explaining it IC, I think it would be quite reasonable for Kaylin to complain about all the things that have sent a substantial portion of the party running in fear recently, she's got plenty of Knowledge Arcana to figure out that Hero's Feast would deal with it and that powerful clerics can cast it, and Elorin has demonstrated similarly powerful divine spell casting ability several times in her presence. A fairly short IC conversation would reveal the problem (Elorin's spells known != entire Cleric spell list, unlike for clerics), and Kaylin has already used Limited Wish to fix somewhat similar problems with herself so suggesting it would seem pretty obvious.

On a side note, does it even require a roll for Elorin to be familiar with at least the basic names and capabilities of every spell on the Cleric list, at least the ones of low enough level for him to cast? Unless the character doesn't actually pick his own spells known (i.e. his god picks for him, or the knowledge comes instinctively with no knowledgable guidance, neither of which makes much sense to me without taking the choice away from the player too), I'd think he would have been presented with the list to choose from at some point.

One of my new 7th level spells (Destruction) requires a 500 gp focus that I haven't gotten yet. Can we just assume that I bought that offscreen before we left seeking the Archmagi?

As for why the party would go along with this side quest, we've exhausted all of our leads on the Sorcerer at the moment, we know he needs a certain bit of knowledge that the only known sources of are in the party, and you do have a stated reason for staying with the party afterwards. Also, if you state that you're going whether we come with you or not, we do have something of a vested interest in making sure such a proven and potent aid in our quest remains alive and able to help. Also, if we didn't accompany you, we'd be stuck trying to track down the Sorcerer without you while you were gone. For a more humorous explanation, see this and this.

Jack Simth October 21st, 2005 09:45 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Quote:

Violist said:
I take solace in the fact that the probability is very small, and also if I allow my mind to be paralysed by the thought, I'd never get anything done. Plus, if it did happen, all the worrying would be in vain anyways. Also, if it happened tomorrow I'd miss some of the D&D session, so I can't imagine that. Sunday, now, I'm free then for some brain reduction http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

But then you'd miss next week's session....

Quote:

douglas said:
Heh, I finally got around to reading the log of last session and was quite amused by the many failed attempts to kill the bunny, none of which would have happened if I'd been there. First round, I would have followed up Kaylin's successful Mind Fog with Greater Command: Halt! (DC 23, hard to make with only +5 after Mind Fog's penalty), and my Holy Bow would have gone right through its DR/good and regeneration/good. Oh well, it was much more amusing this way.


Derrel also would have made mincemeat of it (I NPC'd him for the CDG after I was done laughing) but without expending anything not fully and freely renewable.
Quote:

douglas said:

Does the newly Animated wagon count as a "creature" (not necessarily living)? If so, it's a valid target for Wind Walk, and I can drastically speed up the rest of the journey.


It is now Type: Construct until dispelled (Same Kingdom: +5 (dead vegetable), Same Size: +2 (large), same int: +2 (-); the Polymorph Any Object is permanent for duration factor of +9 or better); yes, it's a valid target. Jason isn't, though, unless you can meet him on the Etherial Plane or he hitches a ride in someone or some such.
Quote:

douglas said:

My next opportunity to pick up Hero's Feast will be at 16th level, unless Kaylin helps out with a Limited Wish. For explaining it IC, I think it would be quite reasonable for Kaylin to complain about all the things that have sent a substantial portion of the party running in fear recently, she's got plenty of Knowledge Arcana to figure out that Hero's Feast would deal with it and that powerful clerics can cast it, and Elorin has demonstrated similarly powerful divine spell casting ability several times in her presence. A fairly short IC conversation would reveal the problem (Elorin's spells known != entire Cleric spell list, unlike for clerics), and Kaylin has already used Limited Wish to fix somewhat similar problems with herself so suggesting it would seem pretty obvious.


No out of character information needed for such a transaction.
Quote:

douglas said:

On a side note, does it even require a roll for Elorin to be familiar with at least the basic names and capabilities of every spell on the Cleric list, at least the ones of low enough level for him to cast? Unless the character doesn't actually pick his own spells known (i.e. his god picks for him, or the knowledge comes instinctively with no knowledgable guidance, neither of which makes much sense to me without taking the choice away from the player too), I'd think he would have been presented with the list to choose from at some point.


Oh, you need to roll to know specifically what's available that you don't actually know - either Spellcraft (which tells you information about any spell, regardless of source) or Knoweledge (Religion) (limited to Clerical spells) ... and speaking of which, Knoweledge(Religion) is cross-class for favored souls; your character sheet needs revising in the skill section.

As for how you get them? The Favoured Soul develops a desire to be able to do something, and the diety, if it's something it lets it's clerics do, and if it's not too much for one so inexperienced (e.g., the FS has attained a high enough level that the FS has a spell known available at that level, and the FS hasn't asked for too many), the diety lets the favored soul do so (a limited wish will permit you to go through the process again - seeing you expend such recources, the diety permits it to work for a favored one in full knoweledge).
Quote:

douglas said:

One of my new 7th level spells (Destruction) requires a 500 gp focus that I haven't gotten yet. Can we just assume that I bought that offscreen before we left seeking the Archmagi?


Long as you mark the expense off, sure; it's you basic save-or-die spell.

Violist October 21st, 2005 09:54 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Holy crap, I want Destruction http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

To me it'd make sense if Elorin was at least familiar with the various names of the spells, since he'd probably spend time chatting to other clerics, and surely conversation would eventually come to world-shattering spells, etc.

The Limited Wish idea sounds fine, Kaylin's done it before and wouldn't mind the 300 XP cost...

On another note, I may have an Ultimate Frisbee practice at 0900 PST Saturday, but more on that later. If I'm not on IRC or openRPG by whatever time we decide to start, use the charsheet at
http://oregonstate.edu/~leungau/Kaylin.html
I'll try to update that whenever necessary. Also, for your edification, Kaylin's Great Warping and Elemental Blast as I believe we haggled out are there.

Jack Simth October 21st, 2005 10:09 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Quote:

Violist said:
Holy crap, I want Destruction http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif


It's only mildly superior to Finger of Death in it's effects - well... unless you just leave the bodies of your enemies lying about, of course, rather than taking the time to Disintegrate them and scatter the dust; however, it has a focus requirement that Finger of Death lacks, and so can't be readily used when grappled.
Quote:

Violist said:

To me it'd make sense if Elorin was at least familiar with the various names of the spells, since he'd probably spend time chatting to other clerics, and surely conversation would eventually come to world-shattering spells, etc.


Quote:

Adventures: Favored souls are often loners, wandering the land serving their deities. They are welcomed by their churches but treated as unusual and are sometimes misunderstood. They are emissaries of their deities and outside the church's command structure - respected mystics not requiring the support normally crucial to a priest's success. This makes them sometimes revered and sometimes envied by their cleric cousins. While favored souls are occasionally disrespected for their perceived lack of discipline, devout worshippers know that they are a powerful message from, and indeed a living manifestation of, their deities.

(emphasis added)
He may have talked to clerics, but he doesn't get automatic access to the full list like a cleric does, he doesn't really stay in one place, and so on; he does not automatically know everything. Kaylin, on the other hand, has a very good Spellcraft roll....
Quote:

Violist said:

The Limited Wish idea sounds fine, Kaylin's done it before and wouldn't mind the 300 XP cost...

On another note, I may have an Ultimate Frisbee practice at 0900 PST Saturday, but more on that later. If I'm not on IRC or openRPG by whatever time we decide to start, use the charsheet at
http://oregonstate.edu/~leungau/Kaylin.html
I'll try to update that whenever necessary. Also, for your edification, Kaylin's Great Warping and Elemental Blast as I believe we haggled out are there.

Ahh... so we may be a little bit short of Blasting power tomorrow. Shouldn't pose too much of a problem; easily adaptable (although a little odd that your character won't be participating on the journey for her side-quest....)

Violist October 21st, 2005 10:40 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Well, if I am gone, it'd only be for a few hours. Perhaps she's cramming in case there's an entrance exam? Just NPC her, and here's the standard spell lists I've come up with. Hopefully I won't be late or there isn't practice, coach is being evil right now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Hmm, I was unaware that "Favored Souls" are different than clerics... my Spellcraft roll isn't that great, why just the other day I rolled a 33! *cough*

Jack Simth October 21st, 2005 10:59 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Quote:

Violist said:
Well, if I am gone, it'd only be for a few hours. Perhaps she's cramming in case there's an entrance exam? Just NPC her, and here's the standard spell lists I've come up with. Hopefully I won't be late or there isn't practice, coach is being evil right now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Hmm, I was unaware that "Favored Souls" are different than clerics... my Spellcraft roll isn't that great, why just the other day I rolled a 33! *cough*

Yeah... that's what you get on a nat 3. Out of combat, I'd suggest taking 10, if it wasn't kinda redundant.

douglas October 21st, 2005 11:29 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Quote:

Jack Simth said:
It is now Type: Construct until dispelled (Same Kingdom: +5 (dead vegetable), Same Size: +2 (large), same int: +2 (-); the Polymorph Any Object is permanent for duration factor of +9 or better); yes, it's a valid target. Jason isn't, though, unless you can meet him on the Etherial Plane or he hitches a ride in someone or some such.

Here I was, all set to argue that he's considered merely incorporeal when manifesting, so at worst I'd have a 50% miss chance and by a strict reading of the rules even that only applies to damage, when I noticed that the Manifestation ability specifically disallows a ghost's touch spells from affecting material targets. Technically it doesn't say anything about touch spells from material sources not affecting the ghost, but it makes some sense that it would go both ways, so I won't argue. Hmm, maybe we should get a pet of some sort for him to ride in when we're travelling long distances with Wind Walk.
Quote:

Jack Simth said:
Oh, you need to roll to know specifically what's available that you don't actually know - either Spellcraft (which tells you information about any spell, regardless of source) or Knoweledge (Religion) (limited to Clerical spells)

What's the DC? Spellcraft for identifying a spell being cast is 15+level, and that implies knowledge of the specific gestures, incantations, etc used to cast it. I'd imagine knowledge of a spell's existence and a general idea of its effects would be considerably lower DC. I'm not sure how or even if using Knowledge (Religion) instead would change it - it's more specific (cleric spells only), but it's also not as focused on that particular subject.
Quote:

Jack Simth said:
... and speaking of which, Knoweledge(Religion) is cross-class for favored souls; your character sheet needs revising in the skill section.

Oops, I didn't look at the class skills list very closely and just assumed that any primary divine caster would have Knowledge (Religion) on the list just like every arcane spellcasting class I know of has Knowledge (Arcana).

Hmm, I just checked, and Favored Soul is the ONLY divine spellcasting class I could find that doesn't have either one of Knowledge (Religion) and Knowledge (Nature) on its class list, and the Epic Spellcasting feat makes it pretty clear that those two knowledge skills, along with Knowledge (Arcana), are considered very highly related to spellcasting in general. Given that, it just doesn't make sense to me for a primary spellcasting class to not have the appropriate knowledge skill on its class list when classes like Paladin and Ranger, which give spellcasting as a minor or secondary feature, do. Knowledge (Arcana) is on the Favored Soul list, but it's linked to arcane spellcasting, not divine. I think Knowledge (Religion) was left off the list or replaced with Knowledge (Arcana) by mistake.

Edit: In case you want to argue that the Favored Soul's lack of scholarly study is the reason, consider this quote from the PHB concerning Sorcerers and the fact that Knowledge (Arcana), their relevant "spellcasting" knowledge skill, is on their class list anyway: "Since sorcerers gain their powers without undergoing the years of
rigorous study that wizards go through, they don’t have the
background of arcane knowledge than most wizards have."
Quote:

Jack Simth said:
As for how you get them? The Favoured Soul develops a desire to be able to do something, and the diety, if it's something it lets it's clerics do, and if it's not too much for one so inexperienced (e.g., the FS has attained a high enough level that the FS has a spell known available at that level, and the FS hasn't asked for too many), the diety lets the favored soul do so (a limited wish will permit you to go through the process again - seeing you expend such recources, the diety permits it to work for a favored one in full knoweledge).

Ok, that makes sense. The character decides it would be nice if he could do a particular thing, and the deity looks for a spell that matches.
Quote:

Jack Simth said:
Long as you mark the expense off, sure; it's you basic save-or-die spell.

Except that this one actually has decent damage on a successful save (10d6) and it's a bit harder to bring someone back who got killed by it than usual - nothing short of True Resurrection, Wish, or Miracle will do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

Jack Simth October 22nd, 2005 12:32 AM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 


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douglas said:
Here I was, all set to argue that he's considered merely incorporeal when manifesting, so at worst I'd have a 50% miss chance and by a strict reading of the rules even that only applies to damage, when I noticed that the Manifestation ability specifically disallows a ghost's touch spells from affecting material targets. Technically it doesn't say anything about touch spells from material sources not affecting the ghost, but it makes some sense that it would go both ways, so I won't argue. Hmm, maybe we should get a pet of some sort for him to ride in when we're travelling long distances with Wind Walk.


Well... he doesn't currently have a familiar... hmm... what to get...
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douglas said:

What's the DC? Spellcraft for identifying a spell being cast is 15+level, and that implies knowledge of the specific gestures, incantations, etc used to cast it. I'd imagine knowledge of a spell's existence and a general idea of its effects would be considerably lower DC. I'm not sure how or even if using Knowledge (Religion) instead would change it - it's more specific (cleric spells only), but it's also not as focused on that particular subject.


Oh, 10+spell level to know it exists for either; better rolls give more information
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douglas said:

Oops, I didn't look at the class skills list very closely and just assumed that any primary divine caster would have Knowledge (Religion) on the list just like every arcane spellcasting class I know of has Knowledge (Arcana).

Hmm, I just checked, and Favored Soul is the ONLY divine spellcasting class I could find that doesn't have either one of Knowledge (Religion) and Knowledge (Nature) on its class list, and the Epic Spellcasting feat makes it pretty clear that those two knowledge skills, along with Knowledge (Arcana), are considered very highly related to spellcasting in general. Given that, it just doesn't make sense to me for a primary spellcasting class to not have the appropriate knowledge skill on its class list when classes like Paladin and Ranger, which give spellcasting as a minor or secondary feature, do. Knowledge (Arcana) is on the Favored Soul list, but it's linked to arcane spellcasting, not divine. I think Knowledge (Religion) was left off the list or replaced with Knowledge (Arcana) by mistake.


Spellcraft is specific knoweledge about spells; it's the theory of how magic works (arcane or divine); every primary (and most secondary) spellcaster has Spellcraft on their class list (including the Favored Soul), as far as I'm aware. Knoweledge(Arcana) is "ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts" - more a history of magic and magical critters; it's almost impossible for a Wizard to do without Spellcraft (can't copy spells!), but Knoweledge(Arcana) is mostly for synergy (with spellcraft), clues, some monster information, and epic spellcasting; Knoweledge(Arcana) is about the stuff; Spellcraft is about the magic. Knoweledge(Religion) is very similar to Knoweledge(Arcana): "gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead" - church theology, traditions, history, symbols (plot-related clues, mostly) and undead (monster info).

Also, an inherent limitation of the class (such as relying on two spellcasting stats); helps balance those monk-perfect saves, energy resitances, and eventual flight and DR 10.
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douglas said:
Edit: In case you want to argue that the Favored Soul's lack of scholarly study is the reason, consider this quote from the PHB concerning Sorcerers and the fact that Knowledge (Arcana), their relevant "spellcasting" knowledge skill, is on their class list anyway: "Since sorcerers gain their powers without undergoing the years of
rigorous study that wizards go through, they don’t have the
background of arcane knowledge than most wizards have."


Sorcerors studying arcane secrets is a common thing in fiction, so Sorcerors have access to the magical history skill and spell theory; however, a Sorceror can get by quite readily without either Spellcraft or Knoweledge(Arcana), and so doesn't need rigorus training (regular will do, or even none at all) although both are still useful (identifying scrolls, potions, and spells (spellcraft); recognizing ancient magical artifacts, predicting magical beasts, and solving those ancient puzzles (Arcana)) the Sorceror's short but flexible spell list makes knowing about the critter in question far less useful than it is to a wizard's long but restricted spell list - the sorceror can see if the fireball or the lightning bolt does better (and has the extra spell slots to do so), and lay down more of whichever was more effective; the wizard must prepare in advance.
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douglas said:
Ok, that makes sense. The character decides it would be nice if he could do a particular thing, and the deity looks for a spell that matches.


For instance, Destruction would be wanting to make your enemies simply go away... for good.
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douglas said:
Except that this one actually has decent damage on a successful save (10d6) and it's a bit harder to bring someone back who got killed by it than usual - nothing short of True Resurrection, Wish, or Miracle will do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

Yep; a single Cleric or Wizard two levels above the party (or a Rogue or Bard with Use Magic Device and a scroll or two; perhaps a Sorceror or Wizard with Planar Binding (for Ifreet - they can grant three wishes to a mortal in a single day)). Not so hard, really, for a DM.

Mind you, save-or-die effects work both ways. How does a CR 16 encounter with a Favored Soul 16 with the Divine Reach metamagic feat, Harm, Heal, Wind Wall, spell reistance, Distruction, Protection from Energy, and a Bead of Karma (Caster level 20; Dispel Magic DC 31....) standing in winged boots sound? Fort save-or die for the Rogue & Wizard, Will save or die for the Paladin, Death for the ghost (half of 150 is death for Jason; although of a temporary nature, so the will half doesn't matter), spells mostly fail, arrows don't hit, and swords can't reach. And nominally only CR 16; a "Very Difficult" but hardly game-breaking encounter, by the book, although the extra wealth could probably push it to Encounter Level 17.

NullAshton October 22nd, 2005 12:37 AM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Jack, you could get a silver dragon as a familar. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Jack Simth October 22nd, 2005 12:41 AM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Barring the Improved Familiar feat, a familiar needs to start out as a mundane animal; as a full-fledged (if small) dragon, Kibin doesn't quite qualify.

douglas October 22nd, 2005 02:45 AM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Quote:

Jack Simth said:
Also, an inherent limitation of the class (such as relying on two spellcasting stats); helps balance those monk-perfect saves, energy resitances, and eventual flight and DR 10.

How is taking Knowledge (Religion) off the class list a significant balance adjustment? It's hardly something a powergamer would spend much time considering when deciding whether to take the class or not, with the singular exception of if he were making an epic character and Epic Spellcasting was a major feature of his plan. Anyway, since my choice of that skill for the second of my two skill points per level was based on mistaken information and not a major part of my character concept, can I change it to something else if you're not going to let me take it as a class skill? Or do I have to pay the extra xp to take Psychic Reformation all the way back to 1st level (350 instead of 75 for me, 350 instead of 300 for Kaylin)?
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Jack Simth said:
Mind you, save-or-die effects work both ways. How does a CR 16 encounter with a Favored Soul 16 with the Divine Reach metamagic feat, Harm, Heal, Wind Wall, spell reistance, Distruction, Protection from Energy, and a Bead of Karma (Caster level 20; Dispel Magic DC 31....) standing in winged boots sound? Fort save-or die for the Rogue & Wizard, Will save or die for the Paladin, Death for the ghost (half of 150 is death for Jason; although of a temporary nature, so the will half doesn't matter), spells mostly fail, arrows don't hit, and swords can't reach. And nominally only CR 16; a "Very Difficult" but hardly game-breaking encounter, by the book, although the extra wealth could probably push it to Encounter Level 17.

Oh, I think we could handle it, just as soon as I get some ranks in Spellcraft (instantly if you let me change it out because of the mistake with Knowledge (Religion), otherwise when Kaylin casts Limited Wish to let me get Hero's Feast). Harm, Heal, and Destruction are all on my spells known list, so I could counter them without needing a caster level check. Meanwhile, Kibin can fly around the Wind Wall to attack or breathe at him, Kaylin could get through the SR pretty easily to blast him (throw enough save-or-die spells and he's sure to fail eventually, and she's got a few non-energy damage spells), and Jason could probably grapple him without too much difficulty (it's a Supernatural Ability for him, so SR does not apply).

Edit: Also, the NPC's caster level of 20 does nothing to prevent suppression of his Winged Boots with a targeted Dispel Magic (CL 5, so DC 16).

Jack Simth October 22nd, 2005 01:21 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
Server online.

Switching out for Spellcraft or Knoweledge (Arcana) is fine.

And yes, you could get such a character; but chances are he'd be taking someone down every round until then, with a properly distanced setup; Kaylin only has 51 HP and SR 18; a caster level 20 Harm, even if she makes the save, will still do 75 damage; instant death. Kibin is made of sterner stuff, but his will save is only +9 or so; a farily minimal Reach Harm would have a Will save of 18 (5th level spell, 7th level slot; minimum primary casting stat 17) but probably considerably more; and you're right; the boots could be taken out; good catch - needs Spell Immunity, then.

douglas October 22nd, 2005 01:31 PM

Re: OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.
 
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Jack Simth said:
Server online.

I'll be on after I get some lunch.
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Jack Simth said:
Switching out for Spellcraft or Knoweledge (Arcana) is fine.

Thank you.
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Jack Simth said:
And yes, you could get such a character; but chances are he'd be taking someone down every round until then, with a properly distanced setup;

Last I checked, Reach Spell and the Hierophant's Divine Reach ability only have a range of 30 feet.
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Jack Simth said:
Kaylin only has 51 HP and SR 18; a caster level 20 Harm, even if she makes the save, will still do 75 damage; instant death.

Quote from Harm spell description: "but it cannot reduce the target’s hit points to less than 1"
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Jack Simth said:
and you're right; the boots could be taken out; good catch - needs Spell Immunity, then.

Spell Immunity does not protect against spells that don't allow SR, so it can't block Dispel Magic.


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