Re: MBT's
 

Re: MBT's
 

Don and I had a "discussion" before the last patch concerning where we thought some of these tanks we've been expecting for a VERY LONGTIME would've already have reached FOC but haven't for any combination of reasons WELL DOCUMENTED in this thread. One of these was the ALTAY. The rest included the ARMATA, CHALLENGER 3 (FOC already declared by MOD as 2030.), M1A2A (Australia MOD declared IOC in 2025.), ARIETE (Also referred to as the ARIETE C1.) (Italy never went ahead with the current C2 tanks in the game. More on this in my files as I'm currently tracking the NEW modified version. STATUS: Best I can give you at this time is it's LIKELY to get in.) and the LeClerc LX "will come down to the wire".

There are a couple of "outliners" but the above would in most people's minds be the more important ones.

Our solution to FOC dates for most above was to set the START for them to DEC 2025.

The reason(s) should be obvious for many of you who've followed this Thread over the years (And THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!) for others basically my job is easy, I track these projects until the scent is dead, report the results and make my recommendations and discuss alternative solutions to fix the problem. Though very time consuming my end is a little easier.

Don: checks my work as I would expect him to do, we come to a consensus and if the fix is needed, he fixes it in the OOB and most times multiple OOB's depending on the issue(s) and then he has to "comb" through all the Campaigns and Scenarios and fix them there. That stuff is beyond my capabilities, and I have NO DESIRE to learn. It's NOT what I do. I'm a "deep miner" and Electronics and associated systems guy (Plus a darn good navigator. :cool:) not a programmer or some such. That's why I have Andy and Don and all the rest of you guys that do that Sxxt out here!!! :D

There has been nothing more frustrating to us then having too CONSTANTLY having to push START dates to the right. This why we chose DEC 2025 and OMG how could I have forgotten INDIA and the ARJUN Mk 2?????

So back to the ALTAY, I had already reported that Turkey signed a contract with South Korea (S.K.) to buy engines from them for the ALTAY (As reminder, the ALTAY is based on the K2.) . I'm not going to rehash everything that delayed the ALTAY except for the most recent from 4 years ago when Turkey was forced to attempt to produce their own 1500hp engine from scratch. Well, here we are.

The PROTOTYPE with the S.K. engine is ready to start evaluations this or next month.

They are progressing in the development of their own engine as well but that will also require a PROTOTYPE.

Production could start within 2yrs. which would put our START date about on target. Maybe. ;)

Note the conclusion reached also in the last para of the article.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...altay_mbt.html

ARIETE C1 (As referred to in the next.) will start with three PROTOTYPES the following: "AMV PT1, which will feature improvements to the hull, the PT2 which will feature improvements to the turret, and finally the PT3 which will incorporate improvements to both the turret and hull."

My personal feeling is since the war started after this plan they will end up with the PT3 with further improvements to include APS. Hopefully "I won't have to eat too much crow" concerning that prediction.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/weap...ttle_tank.html

Crap after 3 :eek: time for a shower!!

As a postscript to my last in Post 1350 I've concluded Russia doesn't have a "road following" tank shell. I'm back to my opening remark in my opinion.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

An "Oldie but Goodie" is being bought back into service apparently as seen in Ukraine this past March.

The T-62M/M1 are replacing Russian tank losses. It's actually a better tank then the T-64 which had a reputation for looking like a "Bonfire" when hit. It was a much worse in that regard then what we're seeing now with some of the T-72/80/90M tanks we've seen.

If the Ukraine gets the LEOPARD 1A5 that tank would still represent and overmatch.

There is something going on in the tactical and strategic thinking on the use of their heavy armor. Where it was reported they had at least a 100 T-90M tanks we found out they had only 20 now 18.

Where are the T-72B3/B4 tanks? That tank was modified to correct the ammunition storage issues (Don, I see NO REASON to change that tank with possible exception of the RELIKT ERA values. ) that makes such a difference as compared against the other T-72 variants to include the T-73B3 which has also suffered losses in the Ukrainian War.

This also brings into question how many T-14/ARMATA tanks do they really have? I'm thinking now it's what you seen the Victory Day Parade and those are PROTOTYPES.

With the technical problems they've had for years now, the war and the sanctions having for some time taking hold now, this might be a true assessment of where they're at with the ARMATA.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...t-tanks-170901
(From last OCT.)
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukra...t-62_mbts.html
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and...rves-3033.html

Some things to think about.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

This is akin to the US refurbishing M60A1 RISE(ERA) and sending them someplace

Right now ANYTHING is possible.:doh:

This would be the Russian OOB unit 793

Fortunately, I don't have to add a unit, just extend the in-service date then add a formation that starts June 2022. We have lots of formation slots to burn. It won't show up between the end of 2011 and now so easy-peasey https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1653505237

Re: MBT's
 

If only they all could be that easy. Nice touch adding the "Z"!

Also, it looks potentially like the K2PL (Poland passed on this to get the M1A2P.) and I would think LEOPARD 2A7 tanks could be in play. Poland has aggressively been pursuing heavy armor options for the last few years. I further feel if they can make these deals, I further wouldn't be surprised if the Ukraine receives the Polish PT-91 TWARDY (UNIT 021.) tanks.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...o_ukraine.html

The following is an abstract item but one for the real world of the Ukraine. This is "right up my alley" Demark is to send the Ukraine the HARPOON BLK II though the articles point out other target types, this is primarily designed to be a ship killer. For the Ukraine this would come in handy in destroying those ships that are "stealing" the grains that were stored in the ports lost to include the granaries as seen in the satellite pictures shown well, everywhere.

They are very capable of taking out moving sea vessels as well especially in the Sea of Azov and Black Sea which even compared to the Mediterranean Sea are just "oversized bathtubs". It'll take out any current (Or recently past.) surface combatant operating in those areas.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...e_systems.html
https://www.naval-technology.com/pro...-ship-missile/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYj913i_VdA
(HARPOON)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijq6LiNlqJQ&t=86s
(HARPOON II)

Attachment 16735 Attachment 16736
(And ONLY 1 Mk-48 torpedo. I was there.)

The videos and pictures would've of course been more spectacular with fuel and ammo were aboard. We don't do that of course because of the environmental hazards. However, another country dumped their decommissioned submarine nuke reactors and other radioactive waste into the Kara Sea region.
https://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/24/s...disclosed.html
https://polarjournal.ch/en/2021/09/0...-the-kara-sea/

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

I may add it to the SHP files and Icon list for scenario designers who want to be creative but adding that as new means using up another unit slot and I try to avoid that for trivial items when the OOB is nearly full and a T-62 in 2022 used on a modern battlefield that is highly infused with up to date anti tanks weapons pretty much defines "trivial"

Seriously..... if the Russians are digging out T-62s and sending them to the front they are getting desperate and I don't care how much reactive armour they slap on it's not going to slow much of anything used now down.

Who knows this may prompt a change in thinking and design. If you know no matter how much armour ( steel, ceramic, reactive) you throw on and something that costs 100 times less is going to turn it into junk then building lighter, faster, armoured vehicles is a way to have more of them.

The Armata reminds me in some ways of the bastard son of a T-35 and a Maus. They are just bigger targets and building them means less of what you really need

Re: MBT's
 

I think it is a symptom of prolonged warfare. The more the conflict drags on, the more probable it is for requirements to change from "A highly sophisticated state of the art tank" to "a tank". Same with infantry, both sides will have a much lower percentage of trained infantry the more this thing continues. And this btw is usually the reason why countries that fight for a long time dont necessarily have the best quality troops (as another example, see Iran-Iraq war).

T62 will still be useful as a modern day Stug IMHO. And for the type of warfare we witness, you dont really need an Armata, you need any moving cannon.

Re: MBT's
 

When high tech counters high tech which counters high tech ad-nauseam, then you are down to simple things that work. Everyone is so impressed and captivated over the wonder toys and forget that they are only as good as the training and all of them have a counter somewhere or in the works.

Re: MBT's
 

Unlike the "RHINO" that was mounted on the Sherman and developed by a SGT. that was decisive in the armor breakout from Normandy, the Russian "BRAZIER" hasn't worked so well even when modified to provide better protection as the article discusses.

I believe some officer came up this, thanks a lot sir!?!

I clearly stated when this first came up in this thread, they would not defeat a modern tandem ATGW warhead. We've all seen the pictures and videos.

I'm posting this because for one they're the first I've seen write about it and to discuss and show the measures they thought might improve the protection but also that they failed to stop the destruction.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukra...s_useless.html

Also, finally I leave with this video it exemplifies why here have Memorial Day to honor "those that gave the last full measure".
https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/st...-video-1711423

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Just further confirmation of what I already reported on Russia bringing in the T-62M/MV tanks in the battle for Ukraine. In para 2 they provide a more conservative list of Russian tanks lost thus far to the date of the articles release.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukra...dern_mbts.html

I'm kind've surprised that this wasn't already posted by a handful of our regulars out here, so I've held off (Though it's in my tracking file.) long enough. I believe two things are driving this tank acquisition and modernization program for Greece. One is obvious the Ukrainian War and the next maybe not so much but, in my opinion almost as important, Turkeys ALTAY program getting back on track that'll swing the MBT advantage more to their side.

What I found interesting is their desire to bring the LEOPARD 1A5 up to the LEOPARD 1A5+/A6 standard. As you might recall I threw the possibility of this for the Ukraine if they ever get those tanks from Germany (LEOPARD 2A5.) Again, the LEOPARD 1A5+/A6 is armed with the 120mm/L44 and would also be equipped with modern add-on armor applications.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...lynx_ifvs.html

Someone is saying my time is up/lunch/shower/work and TGIF! :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Something that bothers me in this article: TOMA ( which should be capital letters since it is an abbreviation: Tethorakismeno Oxima MAkhis) literally means Armored Battle Vehicle and it basically means IFV. It is NOT how any individual vehicle is called, it's just a type designation.

Re: MBT's
 

Good analysis of the possible use of T-62 tanks in Ukraine.
https://topwar.ru/197041-t-62-potenc...-8080-BAL-6222

Re: MBT's
 

Well, the Ukraine won't have to worry about the LEOPARD 1A5 from Germany (Though the following will probably make it easier politically for them to send them now.) because they got an upgrade.

Spain retired their LEOPARD 2A4 tanks at least 10 years ago
and since I don't feel like typing a whole lot right now, I'll quote the source...
"Spain is also ready to deliver 40 Leopard 2A4 tanks that have been stored for a decade in a logistics base of the Spanish army. At the same time, Spain will train the Ukraine soldiers to operate these tanks. The training will be conducted by Spanish soldiers deployed in Latvia, where the Spanish Army has a contingent of 500 soldiers with six Leopard 2E tanks, within the framework of NATO's Enhanced Advanced Presence (EFP) operation."

Spain has 108 of these tanks in storage and they are maintained ready for combat as part of their strategic reserve. This could represent a potential for a second shipment I would guess in the range of 20-40 tanks at a later date, depending on their perceived need of their future defensive needs.

This not out there but is my analysis of the situation as I have further information in my files concerning Spain and its armor.

The tanks are a "DONE DEAL" the "also" refers to the fact that Germany has yet to approve the STOP here...
"The shipment of the Aspide missile systems, produced by the European missile company MBDA, is pending completion of the negotiations through a cell in Germany that is in charge to coordinate the military aid to Ukraine. The Aspide is no longer in service with the Spanish army and it was replaced by a more modern air defense system."
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...e_systems.html

SO, GERMANY HAS APPROVED THE TANK TRANSFER/OPENS THE DOOR FOR POSSIBLE GERMAN LEOPARD 1A5 TRANSFER/ASPIDE MEDIUM RANGE (20km+/AND STILL EFFECTIVE) SAM PENDING GERMAN APPROVAL/I EXPECT THE LEOPARD 2A4 TO BE IN SERVICE BY SEP/OCT AT LATEST/BUT THE UKRAINIANS HAVE CAUGHT ON HOW TO USE THESE ADVANCED SYSTEMS ALOT SOONER THEN I THINK MOST THOUGHT THEY COULD

And there you have it.

Regards
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Thanks Pat. Needless to say " keep me posted"

Re" THE UKRAINIANS HAVE CAUGHT ON HOW TO USE THESE ADVANCED SYSTEMS ALOT SOONER THEN I THINK MOST THOUGHT THEY COULD"

Yeah no doubt quite a BIT of " surprise " for that nation on Ukraine's eastern border as well........

These " advanced systems" for the most part are a decade or two old tech and Ukraine is hardly a technological backwater with no experience in high tech military equipment.... the HIGHLY effective use of drones is proof of that.......and they have been engaged in low and high-intensity combat for 8 years and prior to 2014, Ukraine was the world's 4th largest arms exporter.

When you underestimate your opponent, wars that were supposed to be over in a week or two drag on for months with no end in sight

Re: MBT's
 

Don, just wondering, did any of the official sources of the President of Russia announce a quick military operation?

Re: MBT's
 

My opinion. Even if the plans included a quick military operation, the actions of the enemy can change it - this is a fact. Geopolitics will take over. Russia will take over.

Re: MBT's
 

Regardless of any announcement of a "quick military operation" all the signs that this was thought to be over quick were apparent from the start

but.....

there was NO legitimate excuse at all for the invasion.

And I DO NOT care what Russians believe or were told.


IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU ??

Re: MBT's
 

I found the following ONLY because of the articles title which should be obvious to everyone I've been tracking to the best of my ability for some time well before there was a war this is what I've done for a longtime now.

What caught my attention immediately was what's in para 1.
What we thought. Which has been well publicized

This is a nice short and to the point overview article of the war and its uncertain future.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...b691c68f202b52

This is no time nor the place for "Waving the Flag" lest we forget people are dying while we're playing a game.

Our time has come and gone as are those whom we took our orders (Or gave to.) as are the leaders who've made the decisions to carry out what's good for our "National Interests".

It's hard I know as I'm trying NOT to express my personal views out here and it's difficult at times NOT to do so. I GET IT.

Some people probably don't realize how many times and how close we came to the "ultimate battle" during the Cold War there's a (was) Russian Colonel who was in Moscow in 1983 when his superiors thought they were incoming missiles. He refused to launch based I what he thought was really going on.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-24280831

Or the Russian submarine (B-19) Captain who refused to do the same in the games we played with them and they with us and reminds me of the movie "The Bedford Incident" except that it had a different ending.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ed-nuclear-war

We watched what it was like to die a slow death on a submarine when the KURSK sank every day in our OPCON until the end. I cannot express the anger we all felt or the other emotions we had leading up to the needless death of that crew because of national pride when the handful of countries that have DSRV's or similar system could've been on site within 24hrs.
Like 9/11 (We were in the OPCON for that as well.) we'll always remember the KURSK.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...tail&FORM=VIRE

We have newer systems now, but the procedures are very similar to the video. These were still in service when I was in and would see the next version before I retired.

In case the KURSK gets a reaction possibly from some front, in my "shadow box" I have a set of my Submarine "Dolphins", an RN Officers Submarine "Dolphins" below and left of mine and finally in the same position to the right a Soviet Commanding Officers "Dolphins" because of what I experienced in our shared "environment" we respected them for their PROFESSIONALISM.

I have no time for this, the matter will get settled without our help.

My only concern at the moment is to ensure that CINCLANTHOME has a wonderful Birthday tomorrow as we spend the day together as we see the new "DOWNTON ABBEY" movie- OH LUCKY ME!?! ;)

Before I forget one of the things, I got her was the ANCESTRY 6-MONTH "Go crazy as our files are fully open to you!" in a day she so far has traced her dad's family back to 1676 in Edinburgh, Scotland!

ANDY she could be related to you!! :D

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Looks like the T-62 has arrived in the Ukrainian theatre of operations.

I would also bring your attention to the video REF. 2. showing a Russian T-72B3 hitting a couple of mines. The 2nd would disable it and the "coup de grâce" was delivered by a precision artillery round probably lased by the drone filming the tank. Don't if it was the Ukrainian precision one (Which has already been shown to be effective.) or our EXCALIBUR.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...h=8bddaeb12be5
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...tail&FORM=VIRE

Funny I only saw one guy survive that!?!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

...... and are not carrying fuel tanks on the back of the hull

Looking close at the photos it does seem to be the engine hatch raised though how much "protection" that would give is questionable

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...mor-in-ukraine

https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/202...=70&width=1920

re: T-72B3

The conversation he was having on his cell phone would be interesting....

Re: MBT's
 

Russia used old tanks in exercises (for example, in 2019)
https://rg.ru/2019/08/30/ne-tolko-t-...-i-t-72av.html

Re: MBT's
 

It's "ironic" to maybe see the buyer become the spare parts supplier to the seller.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...omponents.html

If I were the Ukrainians, I'd "take the deal" if offered. Those two companies mentioned in the article are supposedly manufacturing quality military grade parts. It might take some pressure off the domestic supplier for the same considering all the rest of the equipment they have to worry about.

The T-84 OPLOT (Not the "M") has been reported as being in action last week on the Eastern Front.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

There is a new "Panther" on the horizon :shock:

"Rheinmetall Presents KF51 Panther At Eurosatory 2022"

https://www.joint-forces.com/defence...urosatory-2022





Promotion Video:

https://youtu.be/fTBA5tQsDbE

Re: MBT's
 

If anyone sees a top view of this please let me know


https://www.shephardmedia.com/media/...3f80f7e7e8.jpg

Re: MBT's
 

So anything on the KWI Leopard 2A7VA1 that was at the same show?

Re: MBT's
 

This video should give you all the angles you'll need by freezing the frame.

It's ashamed we'll never see it.

There is already talk that if this "concept" moves along it could jeopardize the Franco/German LEOPARD 3 Project. This could lead to some diplomatic complications.

As the video points out there are still some "what ifs" to be resolved but that's what "concept" equipment are meant to do-push the R&D outside of the current design boundaries.
Certainly bears watching.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...tail&FORM=VIRE

What we might see is the BOXER A2 mounting a 50mm MG. The BUNDESWEHR apparently is already testing the PROTOTYPE from a couple of refs I have at this time.

On LEOPARD 2A7VA1 I can't find anything solid, however there is a LEOPARD 2A7A1 this simply indicates that it mounts APS TROPHY. I'm sure that "A1" indicates a "modified unit (Or similar wording.) ". So, LEOPARD 2A7V with APS TROPHY should be the LEOPARD 2A7VA1. Germany ordered late last year around 200 TROPHY Systems.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

The reason I am asking is that I have a cool picture over on Facebook of the Leo 2A7VA1 or so it's listed as being at the same show as the wonder tank, and they had just the one, Leo.

I tried to share the picture and the forums here didn't like that idea. Unless I missed how to upload a picture that doesn't require a link.

Re: MBT's
 

Freezing a frame gave me " close enough "

From a top down game Icon perspective, it's not really a whole lot different than the 2a7

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1655211053

Re: MBT's
 

Here is the picture.

Re: MBT's
 

Karigin - I took your picture and saved it so I could "blow it up" to be sure; they added APS TROPHY as I suspected in my last post.

Looking at the picture to the left and level with the MG on the turret you'll see the standard 8-sided TROPHY "radar" cover you can also make out the same on the right side but with a "raised" profile due to the angle of the picture.

BUNDESWEHR plan is to mount TROPHY on a Company (17) of LEOPARD 2A7V(A1) for an upcoming NATO deployment in OCT. 2022 as I had already reported awhile back. This would result in a request to push back the START date due to final deliveries of the tanks to get this first German unit fully equipped.

I didn't see anything else to indicate any other equipment was outwardly added besides the APS TROPHY as compared to the LEOPARD 2A7V.

What I'm waiting on is a final decision by the BUNDESWEHR if they intend to mount the FLW 200 w/20mm AC as has been proposed.

Corrected my :doh: LEOPARD 2A6V(A1) to the CORRECT LEOPARD 2A7V(A1) in para 3 above. Sorry for any confusion.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

So are they planning on putting the Trophy on all the LEO2s or just the 17 for the exercise? I can see the test run, but the way things are going one would think they would want it on all of their AFVs.

Re: MBT's
 

Betting there will be a lot of tests with ATGM with dummy WH to see if it works better than......some other systems do ( assuming of course those "other systems" were even installed and activated )

Re: MBT's
 

https://va.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_r...Meu1vmay6q.mp4

Video of the Leopard 2A7/LeClerc Hybrid thing

Re: MBT's
 

Some might remember concerning the tentative transfer of the German LEOPARD 1A5 to the Ukraine, that one of the options could be to simply update the current 105mm L7A3 with the 120mm/L44.

That's old news as it was a simple modification that was tested and approved for operations with the LEOPARD 1A6. Along with having the same 120mm/L44 it was to have had also the same FCS as the LEOPARD 2.

But that was the problem they were ready to mass produce the same LEOPARD 2. We all know how that ended.

Though again still currently being "kicked around" for the Ukraine, the next makes me at least wonder if something else might be afoot from a totally non conspirial point of view.

Of all the platforms to choose from that are available they decided to mount the following on a LEOPARD 1 NOW. What impeccable timing.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/l...d-on-leopard-1
https://www.armyrecognition.com/euro...n_station.html
https://johncockerillda.com/products...ckerill-3105//
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...tail&FORM=VIRE

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Wish I had checked into the EDR site sooner to add it to my last post. But I'm here now, because of the KF-51 which in its first full "coming out party" within 2 hours at Eurosatory 2022 was renamed the PANTHER which would seem an appropriate choice.

So, for a deeper read on the PANTHER I give you the following.
https://www.edrmagazine.eu/rheinmeta...bt-the-panther

I found it interesting that Rheinmetall used the following as taken from this article; "As said the hull protection was upgraded using the same concept adopted on the turret, the design having however to cope with some physical constraints, the Panther turret having the same slip-ring diameter of the Leopard 2. “In 2021 we did extensive trials with the 130 mm fitted to a Challenger chassis, and although the recoil is slightly higher no problems emerged for the hull,” Christoph Henselmann told us."

I decided to post the following for one simple reason in the captions they use words like "supposedly"/"might be"/"likely"/"possibly"/"could be" and so forth. If you're uncomfortable seeing dead bodies just "move along little doggy" to something else.
http://www.military-today.com/ukraine.htm

You'll see the man in charge of the site in some of the pictures he's the one you see when you are on the main page. He has sources in Russia maybe, that's how he got the "Russian" pictures.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

While that is cool, the only way this new Panther is going to be a reality is if they convince the US MIC to take it and replace the Abrams with it. Doubtful that will happen.

Re: MBT's
 

Is it me or are some of the decisions with the KF-51 odd?
Auto loader makes sense due to the size of the projectile but they kept the 4th crew position?
If I understand correctly he is the drone controller if they fit attack drones. To me it makes sense to fit recon drones in a heavily protected vehicle it can stop in cover & send them out say before cresting a hill or moving near buildings. This can be covered by the regular crew a feed to the driver might be handy. Why not put the none LOS weapons in a cheap light vehicle that follows? It could have 3 or 4 controllers on board & carry say NLOS & drones the tank acts as spotter because its not fragile.

So space taken up by a 4th crew man you do not need & they all have their own separate armoured compartments. Hmm T-14 makes sense to give the same comparative protection would one box not make sense instead of several its got to need more material. Plus communication & space issues.

Possibly why both machineguns have gone to 7.62mm to save ammo space because a lot of the space seems wasted to me. I suppose in a limited engagement with no support stand off would be useful but it seems a bit of a Frankenstein vehicle to me we have combined arms call in the support vehicle or artillery & use it as heavy recon. After all they are a lot cheaper so why compromise the expensive vehicle?

Re: MBT's
 

This is where we're at as of 24 June concerning U.S. weapons sent and enroute to the Ukraine.

This DOES NOT include the newest weapons package agreed to at the G7 this past Sat. which will send another battery of both HIMARS and HARPOON, more 105mm ammo, NASAMS, Coastal and Riverine craft as well as the JAVALIN and STINGER systems plus more. Notably more of our trucks as already posted to tow and resupply the 18 more 155mm M777/M777A2 systems about to be sent and those already there. I'm trying to verify we haven't sent them our towed M119A3 105mm. We've sent a whole lot of 105mm ammo so far as have some other countries. Ukraine is currently training on the New Zealand L119 105mm pieces and said training will be completed by the end of JULY.
https://www.defense.gov/News/Release...ce-to-ukraine/

I put this here as it's from a reliable source and because this thread will provide the widest distribution for those interested.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Re: MBT's
 

I hope to post a little tank news over my weekend but, in the meantime the NATO question has been resolved on my birthday and as I predicted (For the month anyway.) when the issue was raised. It's now just a matter of formality but, "done is done".

Anything can be negotiated.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...ategory=foryou

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Be interesting to see what Turkey gets as the price of acceptance. Can't imagine they did it without some kickback

Re: MBT's
 

Finally being able to upgrade their F16s could be one explanation.

Re: MBT's
 

First Abrams tanks already today 18 July arrived to Poland

https://www.tvp.info/61350272/czolgi...okazal-zdjecie

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FX7V-g5X...name=4096x4096

Re: MBT's
 

Yes but the article also says......
So they are arriving in Poland but not yet operational......... but they have started to arrive which is " a good thing"

Re: MBT's
 

I also see no APS Trophy. And they are likely the M1A2 tanks that were to be supplied for training purposes as part of the deal for them to get the M1A2P tanks which were included in that package.

Poland has also requested from us to get the ABRAMS M1A1 in exchange for a full transfer to the Ukraine of their PT-91 tanks. If approved, those tanks are expected to come from the former USMC M1A1 tanks that haven't been converted over to the M1A2C.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...rams_mbts.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...tle_tanks.html
(Notice the "discipline" in the use of nomenclature names of the tanks discussed. No FEP anywhere.)

Ref. 2 in paras 5 & 6 CONFIRMS the one thing, as I've stated already when the USMC started turning over their tanks to the USA, that the last to go will be the M1A1 FEP tanks. They'll also be the easiest to convent over to the M1A2C.

As I'm in Va. at the moment on a long overdue and needed vacation I haven't checked my "newspapers" since last Sat. before work. Found the second ref. as I was writing this. This to explain any "disconnect" in this post.

Also remember those USMA tanks WILL BE "denuded" of their DU Armor and advanced Electronics. The Iraqi M1A1 SA tanks make sense for these tanks. Sorry can't get you the game UNIT # as I'm far, far away.

As expected and hoped for 95 feels like it here and NOT like 105 and humid back home-best part my daughter doesn't require me to wear the body armor here!!

I still feel the Ukraine will at some point get the PT-91 tanks I feel by mid to late Fall or end of the year depending how the war goes. Putin is all in with talk of a coordinated 3-pronged attack from the North, East and SE.

If it comes the "clock is ticking" for the Russians they'd need to start it by this time next month or end for any chance of success before the weather will stall the drive.

Also, Belarus would be the "key" for the attack from the North. There are already confirmed reports some of their commanders would refuse to cross the border for offensive operations against Ukraine.

Time will tell.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

I must apologize, from Para 1 of my last post (And now corrected.) I identified those tanks incorrectly as being M1A1 tanks.

They are in reality the M1A2 (28 UNITS) tanks which I did manage to correctly identify as the tanks to be used as training platforms for the M1A2P due to start production in late 2024 and with delivery of the first tanks to start sometime in 2025.

But also, of the below following Para from this next ref. in which I've "highlighted" my concern as I thought shortly after the last patch, I saw this tank was "operational" I speak of the LEOPARD 2PL.

Again, not at home and can't verify that against the OOB. Just my memory telling me so is all.

If the START isn't an issue this is an UPDATE to its status. If OPERATIONAL in the game could be another matter of "THEY GOT THEIR FIRST ONE" again.

"Before the war in Ukraine, Poland had a total of 137 Leopard 2A4 (being upgraded to 2PL) 105 Leopard 2A5, 5 Leopard 2PL (in test) 232 PT-91 Twardy, and 329 T-72A/T-72M1. There are also rumors that Poland could also give its PT-91s MBTs to Ukraine."
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...in_poland.html

Again, If I caused any confusion, sorry. There now is "balance in the universe". :cool:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

As we (And the many countries that have bought their armor as well.) are finding out they aren't as good as they advertised. And the signs were already there years ago if we (Not us here.) had paid more attention. Right "off the bat" Egypt comes to mind in its massive shift from Russian armor to American armor for well over a decade now.

Let me remind you that Egypt have had enough combat experience against an army from a small country called Israel. Though strong leadership and training played a major role in their success against Egypt (+ Syria) but so did in most cases they had better tanks as well.

Egypt has learned from their mistake, Syria has not.

In the "Cold War" we feared the mass of Russian armor (However with the advent of the T-80 and they were stationed in East Germany (Only Warsaw Pact country to have them outside of Russia.) did cause some worries for NATO. But fortunately for NATO Russia feared the "DRAGON" ATGW.

If only they knew what we did, they might've given it a try. I posted at least twice maybe in this thread or one labeled "CIA something" the CIA documents that were released after the collapse of the Soviet Union in the mid 90's that discussed both these topics and more.

Other examples of the "signs" should've been the Afghan/Russian War and when I finally we think we woke up and realized "The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself" and overcame that in both Iraqi Wars.

Maybe in my favorite of all tank countries INDIA that again just MAYBE they'll wake to the fact they have a GREAT tank in the ARJUN which we have both in the game and the current development of a lightweight tank to counter the Chinese TYPE 15 in the mountainous areas of India. Also, they will probably have to deal with an "unfriendly" Pakistan for some time to come.

As of this writing depending on source it appears Russia has lost 8-10 of their best tanks the T-90M.

That's about 1/2 of their total fielded force.

Here's the story and all I can say to a point I made above is maybe the Russian Army had wished they could've sent some of their Armor commanders and crews for training in Israel.
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-tank...eapons-1725661
Some of the above from the Moscow Times with link to their story.

This as good as any location for the following. We are it looks like going to commit to giving longer range anti-ship missiles to the Ukraine. Using my naval training and having operated "restricted waters" the "bathtubs" called the Sea of Azov and the Black Sea might soon afford no "safe harbor" anywhere in those waters.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...80eed590efe09b

Ukraine has recently commented that the Crimea will be considered as legitimate target inside their country. I believe I also read that in one of the above articles.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:
'

Re: MBT's
 

The MIC sold us on the dangers of the Soviet war machine and how we needed to keep making stuff and advance our tech to beat their numbers...

Re: MBT's
 

Today we hit on what Poland will be getting from South Korea.

Before I go on, ensure "you don't get your panties in a wad" because this deal is a long way off.

First it is hoped that both parties will have possibly by the end of the month either an MOU (Memorandum Of Understanding) or an MOA (Memorandum Of Agreement) which is a more binding agreement BUT, NOT A CONTRACT.

The deal is apparently worth 2.3 trillion dollars.

Poland will get 180 K2 Black Panther MBTs, 670 K9 Thunder 155mm howitzers and 48 FA-50s (Supersonic Trainer/Light Attack aircraft. These are generally considered the best in this type of craft in the world.) and will apparently receive 20 of them this year.

Don, I remember having discussions on the K2PL but I can't remember that we modeled them. Like how we modeled the foreign sales U.S. M1A2C, I see the foreign sales K2 somewhere between the K1 and K2.

Poland wants the K9 due to issues that the KRAB (Based on the K9.) has been suffering from since it entered service.

I strongly caution everyone we probably except for the jets as noted, will be unlikely to see the tanks and the artillery is up in the air.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...0_fighter.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Gonna " wait and see " for this one. It is a bit of change in direction