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General Woundwort

August 18th, 2003 03:54 AM

Re: OT - Scientific proof that there is no afterlife!

Quote:

Originally posted by Tigbit:
concrete evidence is evidence that can be tested. If it cannot be tested it is not concrete. Thus mathematical evidence is concrete evidence because it can be tested.

Does historical evidence qualify? Or eyewitness testimony?

Tigbit

August 18th, 2003 03:55 AM

Re: OT - Scientific proof that there is no afterlife!

Quote:

I seem to have missed the point of making this post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Most people who support science look for "proof". But there is no such thing in science. No other point was intended, nor was the intent to imply that someone here thinks this way.

Jack Simth

August 18th, 2003 03:56 AM

Re: OT - Scientific proof that there is no afterlife!

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Your assumption: there is a soul. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Everything that exists is matter or energy (or something like anti-matter, which is equivalent for purposes of this post). But, matter is energy, and energy is matter. All waves of energy have particle-like properties, such as a mass equivalent property, though it is normally infintesimal. All particles of matter have wave-like properties, though those are normally infintesimal (except for very, very fast moving particles, such as electrons, which are particles, but act more like waves than particles). Thoughts are energy on a quantum level, which exist because of the properties of the neural cells in the brain (which are mass). So, if the soul exists, it is either energy or matter (or one of those other things (such as anti-matter), which are equivalent. Either way, it would have a mass. This is not saying that the post by Ed means anything, just saying that the theoretical soul has a mass value. Of course, proving that the soul actually exists is a much more complex issue. And keep in mind that any arguments akin to "the [holy scripture/person of choice] says we have a soul, so we have a soul" are laughable at best. Any reasoning being can do better than that, and all humans are reasoning beings.

There have been cases where humans were weighed as they died; it was found that weight was lost at the instant of death. Does this constitute proof that the soul exists? No - but it does qualify as supporting evidence. The existance of the soul is not an unreasonable assumption; it is impossible to disprove at the present time, and there is some supporting evidence for it.

Tigbit

August 18th, 2003 03:57 AM

Re: OT - Scientific proof that there is no afterlife!

Quote:

Originally posted by General Woundwort:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Tigbit:
concrete evidence is evidence that can be tested. If it cannot be tested it is not concrete. Thus mathematical evidence is concrete evidence because it can be tested.

Does historical evidence qualify? Or eyewitness testimony?<hr /></blockquote>Only if it can be tested under controled conditions. Testimony cannot be tested.

General Woundwort

August 18th, 2003 03:57 AM

Re: OT - Scientific proof that there is no afterlife!

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> What is the tip-over point where naturalism can no longer be applied?

Fyron

August 18th, 2003 03:59 AM

Re: OT - Scientific proof that there is no afterlife!

Quote:

Originally posted by Tigbit:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by General Woundwort:
Does historical evidence qualify? Or eyewitness testimony?

Only if it can be tested under controled conditions. Testimony cannot be tested.<hr /></blockquote>What he said.

Quote:

Originally posted by General Woundwort:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> What is the tip-over point where naturalism can no longer be applied?

There is none.<hr /></blockquote>Well, that kinda ends the discussion right there, doesn't it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif <hr /></blockquote>Maybe. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack Simth:
There have been cases where humans were weighed as they died; it was found that weight was lost at the instant of death. Does this constitute proof that the soul exists? No - but it does qualify as supporting evidence. The existance of the soul is not an unreasonable assumption; it is impossible to disprove at the present time, and there is some supporting evidence for it.

Assuming that is accurate (which it probably isn't), that is more wishful thinking than actual evidence of a soul. There are many possible explanations for it.

[ August 18, 2003, 03:03: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

General Woundwort

August 18th, 2003 04:02 AM

Re: OT - Scientific proof that there is no afterlife!

[quote]Originally posted by Tigbit:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by General Woundwort:

Quote:

Does historical evidence qualify? Or eyewitness testimony?

Only if it can be tested under controled conditions. Testimony cannot be tested.<hr /></blockquote>Such a standard is pretty much a death knell to history as a serious field of study. The standards of scientific experimentation are fine in their intended place (study of physical/energy processes), but when applied to the rest of life (which is *not* a "controlled environment") you end up with very little. That's why positivism died out as a viable philosophy.

Fyron

August 18th, 2003 04:05 AM

Re: OT - Scientific proof that there is no afterlife!

Umm... you asked if historical evidence or eyewitness testimony were valid scientific evidence. They are not. They might (depending on the evidence itself) be valid for historical purposes, but not for scientific ones.

Slick

August 18th, 2003 04:05 AM

Re: OT - Scientific proof that there is no afterlife!

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Slick:
Unless it is a dimensional concept (such as space and time), everything that exists either has mass or has mass-like properties. Even energy essentially has mass. Photons have mass, EM radiation has mass-like properties, etc. Please tell me of a non-dimensional concept that exists and has nothing to do with mass.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> edit: There are no "quantum level" effects in the brain. Do you even know what that means? Thoughts and ideas are electro-chemical in nature.

Actually, there are. I forget what the name of the study was, but it has been found that there are changes in quantum energy states when thoughts occur. Just what these changes do is unknown, but they are there.

Tigbit:
Yes, I have heard of n-dimensional space. But, is that not just an extension of the 3 spatial dimensions we know and love, and has nothing to do with other planes of existence?<hr /></blockquote>You are avoiding the issue. I pointed out that space and time have no mass or energy but they exist and you conveinently ignored that. Or are you saying that they don't exist? Or are you saying that they are made up of matter or energy? Come now, you brought this up.

Also, referring to your "quantum" gibberish. Please don't refer to a study that you can't remember. This is a precise discussion. Let us all know what this study is or who did it or post a link so all can see it or don't mention it at all. Please be precice in exactly what you mean by "Thoughts are energy on a quantum level" since you avoided answering that one too.

Do tell, I so love to hear what the experts have to say.

Slick.

Tigbit

August 18th, 2003 04:05 AM

Re: OT - Scientific proof that there is no afterlife!

[quote]Originally posted by General Woundwort:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Tigbit:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by General Woundwort:

Quote:

Does historical evidence qualify? Or eyewitness testimony?

Only if it can be tested under controled conditions. Testimony cannot be tested.<hr /></blockquote>Such a standard is pretty much a death knell to history as a serious field of study. The standards of scientific experimentation are fine in their intended place (study of physical/energy processes), but when applied to the rest of life (which is *not* a "controlled environment") you end up with very little. That's why positivism died out as a viable philosophy.<hr /></blockquote>Unfortunately that's exactly the way history is. Even science is not totally immune to the deliberate inacuracies that plague historical study. People will only write what supports their view. It is the checks and ballances that I detailed in the post Fyron found pointless that rescues science from the damnation of nearly every other dicipline.

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