Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are approaching this from the wrong direction, his fortune event ability is not him being a shortchanged but him getting an additional bonus, most pretenders do not have this ability after all. Now looking at him I would perhaps agree that he is a tad expensive for his potency, but I think it is a better solution to either improve him in some other way of reduce his cost, rather than make his luck event ability as potent as that of the pretender that is expressiviely intended to be a good fortune pretender.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

Well considering the Jade Emperor has:

Cost 100

HP 110 St 20
Pr 3 At 10
Mo 30 De 9
Mr 18 Ps 10
En 2 Mv 3/12
Leadership 75/0/0

Astral 1, Water 1, New Path: 50

Dominion 3

Weapon: Fist

Special: "Minor" Fortune

and the:

Lady of Fortune

Cost 100
HP 85 Str 20
Pr 4 At 11
Mo 30 De 11
Mr 18 Ps 13
En 2 Mv 3/16
Leadership 125/0/0

Water 2, Nature 1, New Path: 50

Dominion: 3

Weapon: Fist
Armor: Helmet

Special: "Full" Fortune


I don't know why I would look at him as being less attractive. Perhaps I'm a 'the cup is half empty' type of person. But when I look at two pretenders that are virtually the same, and I see one for the same cost with lower overall statistics and 'special' ability while being a Racial Specific pretender only usable by T'ien Ch'i I see it as less attractive than the one who is better.

Perhaps it is because once a pretender takes at least 1 pick in Astral he is committed to at least a few more picks otherwise he is virtually useless in any combat situation in MP. Now seeing as the Emperor is less inclined to being a Rainbow, because of his new pick cost, I don't see him picking more than perhaps 1 other path outside of his two without going with a different pretender.

Maybe this has already been discussed and you are improving them; and this is just rubbing salt into the wound. I have no idea.

But now that I know that the Jade Emperor has less Fortune than the Lady; I will be much less inclined to choose him over her unless for whatever reason I want Astral and not go with the other much more attractive astral pretenders out there for much cheaper.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

My girlfriend is a big fan and scholar of the Warring States period of China, so she's taken a liking for the Spring&Autumn variety of T'ien Ch'i.

Nobody seems to comment on the _very_ nice charioteer commanders.

I'm rather surprised that these people have cavalry instead of chariot troops. Reading "The Art of War" should show everybody just how central _vast_ chariot armies were in the early China.

But still. The charioteer commander is heavily armoured, fast and deadly. Just recruiting a handful (say 4+) of them and positioning them to do a flanking rear attack can have rather spectacular results.

And since they are all commanders, one can beef them up with missile protection and extra armour.

Nice. I still hope the cavalry get's changed to chariots though. So chinise http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Huge wooden crossbows too, of course. Just look at the terracotta warriors.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

The reason I see to take the Jade Emperor over Fortune is easier access to Crystal shields. I'm hoping crystal shields will unleash the full potential of Celestial Mages.

So far my Oracle (Astral3, Earth2 for CS) Spring and Autumn race has failed miserably. I had a great run of luck in one game using Fortune and the Barbarians but though I'm still playing turmoil3/luck3 I haven't had much luck since. If I start close to an AI I get overrun in short order while tough indie's are really hard to beat without the Lance armed cavalry to charge down their Heavies. Bring on extra Chariots I say.

From the explanation given there seems to be no special affinity between the Lady of Fortune/Jade Emperor and turmoil/luck races. The otherside of the coin is it means they are an interesting choice for an order/misfortune race that still wants good events. Not the way I hoped it worked but there you go.

Cheers

Keir

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Some of the better luck events still has a required luck scale setting thoug, so you still couldn't get a few of the better events if you played with lady of fortune luck -3 for example.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A very good point. This helps explain why the combo of turmoil/luck plus Lady Fortune seemed to work. It does! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Having got this cleared I'm scrapping the Oracle and its back to Lady Luck - or maybe the Jade Emperor with earth2 for Crystal Shields.

Thanks Johan,

Keir

[ December 04, 2003, 00:12: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

Keir, in all honesty if I was going to try that type of idea. I would either go; Lady of Fortune and try to use a Celestial to make the Shields. Or a Great Enchantress. She begins with a pick in Astral, makes Astral Gems to forge/Power of the Spheres more often and costs quite a bit less to get to the same level as a Jade.

That 10% chance for a good event (in whichever province he stands) just isn't "wow". Maybe this is because of the weight of the luck scale, or not. I couldn't tell you.

Now I don't mind that he doesn't have a full effect of fortune. On the contrary I thought of that as just an 'extra' but with him being T'ien Ch'i only and my quest to make good Racial specific pretenders, he just got taken down a notch on "Good pretenders for:".

Give the Emperor another Astral and I might change my mind.

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do get your point and think its valid. Johan O seemed to agree the Jade Emperor could do with a bit of upgrading.

Just having another go with Barbarian Kings Lady of Fortune so I also prefer the greater fortune ability. The game is going well as I had a fairly easy batch on indie's to face and have managed to avoid getting imbroilled in an early war. I am finding it very difficult to get Crystal shields though as I haven't got an earth random pick yet. The luck factor is working ok although I have probably lost more population in my empire to floods etc than grown through growth +3 - however many of the bad events have happened in provinces not fully dominated. Random events are commen turmoil3, luck3.

I have found Tien Chi mages remarkably ineffective at searching. I'm guesing I've just had along string of bad luck as I have only found 1 extra death gem income in two games. It does make me wonder though wether site searching with mages with lots of 1's is not so productive. The one thing I do get is lots of astral gems from all those temples. Are there any good uses for these, other than Power of the Spheres, until I can make Crystal shields? The summons I've spotted are along way off.

Seeing how much easier BK starts than S&A I'm wondering wether part of the problem could be fixed if S&A got better/more starting troops and/or commanders as they start with less than B&K and main theme (I think). I find even getting a third turn attack in with S&A can be risky.

Cheers

Keir

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

Crystal Shields ... Sigh. They are expensive, even if you do get a good searcher for Earth. My main searcher is either a Celestial Master with a Earth and Death or a Lot5E with a Death. Also Nature is good since so many sites are Nature 1. The trick is getting him up to Earth 2, Astral 3 (for the shields) they are not that glamourous. Cost something like 20 Astral 20 Earth gems to forge and are heavy thus netting you less spells because most of the time you can only script what you want first off (Quickness etc.) then under computer control it chooses the most fatiguing spells instead of chaincasting ones that they can repeatedly do.

I hold onto my Astral (outside of Power of the Spheres, which I always have scout runners ready to supply for) unless I need to Alchemy for making summons, since they are such a big part of S&A and a Pack of Summer Lions or Fall Bears can make a big difference in it's army strength. Otherwise I save them for an Angelic Host. A good % of the time I find a pretty healthy death income and keep on the Spirit Mastery and Revive Mound King to carry them around with the main army.

Where I seem to be falling, is really penetrating those heavy troops of the enemy. I wish that S&A had access to X-bows, that would at least give them a half-decent way to deal with them. That and the fact if I don't build my pretender exactly right; I have a gem income I can't use and armies with vast holes in them (Because of summons and the fact that Celestial Masters suck at summoning anything other than Demon of's).

If the Random 2 slot would both be to 1 path that would be best, it would at least give you a shot at not having to make your pretender do all the work.

Edit: I wish that Luck 3 would upgrade the vanilla luck events. Like instead of 30 Militia (nearly useless with S&A since most of what you can recruit is on par with militia, and they eat a ton) upgrade it to 20 Heavy Infantry if you get that same event in a Luck 3 enviroment. Instead of 20 Flaggelants, upgrade it to 10 Knights.

[ December 04, 2003, 05:36: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: T\'ien Ch\'i, and how they rule!
 

What's up with the love of Crystal Shields? They're terrible! Way too much encumbrance. I prefer shields of valor, or lucky coins. Am I missing something? Or are these just used to enable a specific spell that would normally be uncastable? Or do people always use them with reinvig items?