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Re: Dominions 2 Demo Review

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Originally posted by Arryn:
Agreed. Units at "home" should get a morale bonus. Tie the morale boost to a combination of dominion score and province ownership.

Cheers! [/QB]

Units do get a morale bonus of +1 in their home province. And an additional one from their home dominion. This might seem like it wouldn't have much effect but it does. Same goes for many of the other seemingly low bonuses, such as the stat increases on elite units that I assume is what Fyron is belittling. Just because the values doesn't look that impressive doesn't mean they are insignificant. I will assume that Fyron is reffering to Jotun Hirdmen vs ordinary Jotun giants. In this case I certianly think they are worth their cost increase in many cases. If you need a hard hitting center to storm a castle, has more money than resources or facing an opponent with above average defense on his troops. Do not dismiss missile troops just because of friendly fire incidents, while you may feel the casualties from tfriendly fire is to high they are, under many circumstances, very useful, and you would do yourself a disservice in competitive play if you dismissed them completely.

[ January 13, 2004, 00:23: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Dominions 2 Demo Review

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Originally posted by PvK:
Furthermore, retreating can often be a good thing. If a small group routs, it is often beaten up, fatigued, and about to die, and having it withdraw to fight another day can be a very good thing. Same is often true for an army. Fighting to the death when overpowered is often a bad idea, and you need to start running before its decided, to have a reasonable chance of escape.

It's also more interesting to play a game where a reasonable number of the defeated side are able to continue to fight in later battles, instead of being wiped out in all-or-nothing battles. It makes wars much more strategically interesting than if it were like, say, SE4, where entire wars are frequently decided by single to-the-death-despite-the-odds bloodbaths. It's also a lot of fun to have both friendly and enemy characters and armies re-appear in multiple battles, even after being defeated.

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PvK

Well said!

Re: Dominions 2 Demo Review

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Originally posted by johan osterman:
Units do get a morale bonus of +1 in their home province. And an additional one from their home dominion. This might seem like it wouldn't have much effect but it does.

Re: Dominions 2 Demo Review

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Despite flaws like this, the game is exceptionally intriguing and well worth the effort of playing. So don't use archers. (I don't.) It's not an insurmountable issue.

It is for me. I like having realistic armies with combined arms. Having missile weapons so deadly to your own units greatly reduces the strategic options of the game.

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I disagree. I've been playing Jotunheim exclusively, both the demo for about 4 days, and the full game for another 4 days. I don't think it's such a big deal. I only use 1/3-1/2 of the full variety of Jotunheim units. But that's my play style.

As it should be, unless your play style is to play weaker than you could.

Here is an example: Jotun Spearman compared to Jotun Huskarl with spear: 18 prot. vs. 15 prot.; 10 def. vs. 11 def.; 6 fatigue vs. 5 fatigue; 12 combat move vs. 13 combat move. Now for cost: 30 gold/32 res vs. 35 gold/23 resources.

That 5 gold extra has rarely been a determining factor; it is the 9 fewer resources that often allow more of the Huskarls to be built, which are roughly as strong as the Spearmen indivually. Not very balanced here it would seem.

The same sort of oddities appear with Axemen and the axe-wielding Huskarls.

The Hirdman are not that much stronger than the other melee units, save their longswords being slightly better than axes. And yet they cost a lot more, as they have high gold and resource costs.

I have not noticed the Woodsman or Neifel Giants being that much more effective when lead by a Gode or a Herse. Maybe those blessings just need much better priests or some such to be effective.

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I think you're nit-picking rather than looking to see the myriad possibilities of what you can do with what's been given to you.

Well lets see.. nit-picking is vital to determining whether a game is right for you or not. The details are everything.

Now as for the other part... I have most certainly considered hte myriad of possibilities, and the bizarreness of how the unit costs work limits them.

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Unlike many games that I could name, Dom 2 is excellent despite its flaws, flaws which in no way make the game unplayable or even unenjoyable.

For you.

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It's also more interesting to play a game where a reasonable number of the defeated side are able to continue to fight in later battles, instead of being wiped out in all-or-nothing battles

I never said that a morale system was bad. It is a good thing for games to have. I have just said that the way the morale system works in Dominions 2 is a bit strange (or more than a bit in some cases).

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It makes wars much more strategically interesting than if it were like, say, SE4, where entire wars are frequently decided by single to-the-death-despite-the-odds bloodbaths.

I don't know what kind of games you have played, but I have frequently seen people come back after losing such a battle, and have done so myself on more than one occasion.

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Originally posted by Arryn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by johan osterman:
Units do get a morale bonus of +1 in their home province. And an additional one from their home dominion. This might seem like it wouldn't have much effect but it does.

I was thinking of something a bit more. Instead of +1 while in dominion, say +1 per 3 dominion levels (rounded down), but only in friendly-controlled provinces. No bonus at all if outside of your own "borders".<hr /></blockquote>Yes... +1 does not make a whole lot of difference.

Another note on morale... please explain to me how half of my army routing AFTER the enemy had routed, save an infantry or two, is at all realistic, historically accurate, or good for gameplay. I have seen this happen more than once.

Re: Dominions 2 Demo Review

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Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Here is an example: Jotun Spearman compared to Jotun Huskarl with spear: 18 prot. vs. 15 prot.; 10 def. vs. 11 def.; 6 fatigue vs. 5 fatigue; 12 combat move vs. 13 combat move. Now for cost: 30 gold/32 res vs. 35 gold/23 resources.

That 5 gold extra has rarely been a determining factor; it is the 9 fewer resources that often allow more of the Huskarls to be built, which are roughly as strong as the Spearmen indivually. Not very balanced here it would seem.

I think you underestimate prot 18 vs prot 15. I can't do precise calculations right now, but +3 prot in that range makes a big difference against most units. First of all with prot of 18 units won't be damaged very often, given typical strength of the opponents. Even when the damage be dealt, it will be 3hp less (most probably something in 1-3 range against 4-6 with prot 15).
This way spearmen will get much less afflictions and they will Last much longer. On average they will probably can take 3-4 times more hits.

Spearmen have slightly worse defense, so they'll be hit a bit more often, but not anywhere close to 3-4 times. So, if anything I'd think that spearmen are more efficient in most cases, but often decision is made depending whether the gold or resources are in shortage

Re: Dominions 2 Demo Review

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Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
It is for me. I like having realistic armies with combined arms. Having missile weapons so deadly to your own units greatly reduces the strategic options of the game.

I've never found them to be that much of a problem unless you are using completely unarmored troops, or you have your archers a long ways away from the front lines. Archers are very good for dealing with high defense units like Van, knights and such, as they are much easier to hit this way.

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Here is an example: Jotun Spearman compared to Jotun Huskarl with spear: 18 prot. vs. 15 prot.; 10 def. vs. 11 def.; 6 fatigue vs. 5 fatigue; 12 combat move vs. 13 combat move. Now for cost: 30 gold/32 res vs. 35 gold/23 resources.

That 5 gold extra has rarely been a determining factor; it is the 9 fewer resources that often allow more of the Huskarls to be built, which are roughly as strong as the Spearmen indivually. Not very balanced here it would seem.

I woud disagree with you here. The spearmen are usually better than the huskarls as they don't get hurt nearly as often. 18 protection is much better than 15 protection as there are very few weapons with a damage greater than 9, but there are a quite a few weapons with a damage of 5. As the protection value becomes equal to and exceeds the damage from a weapon your chance of ignoring most hits increases dramatically. A 15 prot huskarl has a 45% chance of taking damage from a shortsword (damage 5) in the hands of a strength 10 human. The 18 prot spearman has a 23.7% chance of taking at least a point of damage from the same attacker.

You should try out Saber Cherry's combat simulator, overall, the JO spearmen are just slightly ahead of most of their other units

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The Hirdman are not that much stronger than the other melee units, save their longswords being slightly better than axes. And yet they cost a lot more, as they have high gold and resource costs.

Their longswords are considerably better than axes, because they do not cause a defense reduction. Their defense is also much better at 13 than at 11, because it means that they can be attacked by three units per round without their defense dropping below 10, unlike the 1 of other giants. Giants are most vulnerable to mobs of troops wearing their defense down and thereby allowing them to be hit often.

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I have not noticed the Woodsman or Neifel Giants being that much more effective when lead by a Gode or a Herse. Maybe those blessings just need much better priests or some such to be effective.

Blessings are entirely dependant on the magic you choose at pretender creation. If you don't pick high magic scales of some type, then you won't see much use out of sacred troops other than their reduced maintenance. Nature 9 or 10 works very well with giants, as they can take a single hit and then regenerate it.

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Now as for the other part... I have most certainly considered hte myriad of possibilities, and the bizarreness of how the unit costs work limits them.

I think it's more a matter that you don't fully understand how much difference a single point can make in a unit's combat performance when averaged over many units and many dice rolls.

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I never said that a morale system was bad. It is a good thing for games to have. I have just said that the way the morale system works in Dominions 2 is a bit strange (or more than a bit in some cases).

The casualties that a unit can take without routing are often almost too high. After all, most ancient battles ended with a rout long before even 10% of a side might be killed. After all, that's a decimated force. It's only when you have extremely elite troops that people will stand and fight in the face of appreciable casualties.

Re: Dominions 2 Demo Review

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Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Despite flaws like this, the game is exceptionally intriguing and well worth the effort of playing. So don't use archers. (I don't.) It's not an insurmountable issue.

It is for me. I like having realistic armies with combined arms.
<hr /></blockquote>Then may I suggest a more "realistic" game such as Stronghold or Lords of the Realm. No one has claimed this game is "realistic". While more accuracy from archers would be nice, they would also become far more deadly and thus imbalance the game because they are cheap compared to armored troops. As was the case historically in the real world, for two armies that "cost" the same, the army with the archers will beat the army with the armored troops almost always.

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Here is an example: Jotun Spearman compared to Jotun Huskarl with spear

That 5 gold extra has rarely been a determining factor; it is the 9 fewer resources that often allow more of the Huskarls to be built, which are roughly as strong as the Spearmen indivually. Not very balanced here it would seem.

The Spearmen have 3 more protection. The game is consistent in that increasing armor costs a lot. It makes perfect sense. However, I have found in my own play, that the Huskarl is more cost-effective. Which is what you have seen too. But complaining about it makes little sense. At least to me. My own opinion is that you just don't quite understand the design criteria that has been used by the devs for the game. Or if you do, you just can't accept it. Fair enough. But don't expect a change; it's not broken.

By the way, you can also hire 2 Huskarls for the cost of 1 heavy cav. The giants are by far more useful ...

Re: Dominions 2 Demo Review

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Re: Dominions 2 Demo Review

Not to argue about which is best, but the costs make a lot of sense.

According to what I have seen thus far, the gold cost of an unit is more or less tied to its quality, professionalism and special powers, regardless of equipment (at least, when comparing units of the same nation/theme) : thus, units with higher morale, higher base attack, defense, hit points, berserking, or beeing sacred will cost higher.

The ressource cost of an unit is entirely dependant on its equipment, the heavier the armor and the weapons, the more it costs, and every additional items (helms, shields, additional missile attacks ...) add to the cost.

Gold and ressource cost do not have to be tied to each other. That's just why mages leaders costs a huge amount of gold and a very low amount of ressources, heh. Putting an heavy armor on a militia will cost the same (in resource) as putting the same armor on a seasoned soldier. A grizzled veteran will need to be paid more (in gold) than a blue militia

Considering that, the cost of spearmens vs huscarls are completely understandable. Huscarls are quality, elite troops, with higher morale and base (unmodified by equipment) combat stats, but more lightly armored (scale vs chain) than regular spearmen. Thus, a higher gold cost, and a lower ressource cost.

PS : you also forgot upkeep costs (in gold). Huscarls will overall cost you more in the long run, because their wages are directly poportional to their base cost.

Now, anyone is entitled to his opinion about whether *you* value pure protection or better overall prowess more (or whether Jotunheim should have recieved an elite AND heavily armored unit or not), considering the always highly situational choices you have to make (sometimes you are starved for ressources, sometimes for gold). But the costs are completely logical, not bizarre, when you know what resource and gold costs are supposed to represent.

Re: Dominions 2 Demo Review

Another thing to consider with gold cost vs resource cost is that upkeep is dependant on gold. I will often build Huskarls early on when it's important to raise an army quickly. However, recruiting lots of gold expensive troops every turn isn't a good idea, since the upkeep will choke your economy.

With heavily armored low gold cost troops you can maintain a larger, tougher, army, even though it takes longer to build it up.