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Re: How to solve castling effect?

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Originally posted by PvK:
Is it a problem without a SC VQ involved? Seems to me adding cheap-o castles everywhere costs about as much gold as it's worth for a one-turn delay in sacking a temple, and little other benefit. Also, by taking a wimpy castle type, your home province isn't particularly well protected, either.

If it's only a real problem with a SC VQ, then I'd say the solution involves doing something about the SC VQ, rather than the castles. Either in-game (go nail their home province, with its wimpy castle, and bring some folks who can kill the VQ, like a few Bane Lords with Flambeaux), or some mild nerfing of the VQ, if necessary (as discussed in other threads).

I can't really comment about how efficient the same "mad castling" strategy would be without VQ. Obviously I never done it myself, since I consider it to be cheap and abusive. The notorious mad castler Norfleet on the other hand, with whom I played multiply times, is always using uber VQ and massive clam hoarding, since it is obviously multiply the effects of his "mad castling" strategy.

I suspect however that while having immortal uber-VQ clearly makes this strategy much more efficient, it could be done without it as well, although less efficiently.

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As for the line of thought "temples get destroyed way too easily by attack spells without castles, so I must build castles everywhere, or else I won't be able to have temples everywhere", I think that argument has a flawed premise, specifically:

* Players who expect to be able to build temples everywhere, and have them be safe.

Consider that building temples everywhere is a huge and boring project. Why should it be expected that everyone will do it everywhere? The existing counter to that practice, is the ease of knocking them out with raiders and magic spells. Seems like a feature to me. Building unprotected temples is a risk, as it should be. No?

PvK

Very true PvK. I agree with everything you've said here.

[ May 26, 2004, 19:53: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: How to solve castling effect?

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Nope. SC VQs have an entirely seperate issue: It works just as well with SC GKs, SC Allfathers, SC Carrion Dragons, SC Natarajae, or even perfectly mundane SCs like flying Bane Lord squads, Ice Devils, and Elemental Nobility, particularly Air Queens.

VQs are fairly easily swatted if you expect them to show up, and even if they're immortal, every beating dished out yields you a castle that an SC alone is hard-pressed to take back. The strategy is, in essence, brittle: It's hard to break, but when it does, it shatters.

Re: How to solve castling effect?

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Originally posted by Norfleet:

VQs are fairly easily swatted if you expect them to show up, and even if they're immortal, every beating dished out yields you a castle that an SC alone is hard-pressed to take back. The strategy is, in essence, brittle: It's hard to break, but when it does, it shatters.

Bull****. You can kill VQ again and again and again, but it will be back immideatly just as strong (or stronger) as before, as long it is her dominion. (and with temples in every province it is always her dominion).

Even if you win an offensive battle against her, you are risking of losing large part of your army in each successeful battle against her, or being totally annihilated. The max benefits that you can get from wining against her - is one crappy castle. Losing one castle is nothing when you have castles in every province.

To compare VQ to SC banelord is just plain stupid.

I agree with Norfleet in one thing though - as I said in my Last post this strategy can probably be pulled off with some other pretenders. But having immortal uber-VQ pretender clearly makes "mad castling" much more effective.

AllFather, Natataraje, etc are strong SCs (and btw unlike VQ they are unique). But they are not immortal, so once they die even once they are crippled due to losing magic pathes that made them efficient. They also risk taking battle injuries in each and every battle while they would be trying to defend "castled" dominion. VQ risk nothing.

Norfleet is just trying to turn facts upside down in his usual manner. Playing "mad castling" with Natataraje for example is brittle , since once your pretender dead or crippled your resistanse is significantly weakened. Playing it with VQ is an opposite of that.

[ May 26, 2004, 20:36: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: How to solve castling effect?

Quote:

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
Bull****. You can kill VQ again and again and again, but it will be back immideatly just as strong (or stronger) as before, as long it is her dominion. (and with temples in every province it is always her dominion).

And every time this happens, she loses another castle and temple.

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Even if you win an offensive battle against her, you are risking of losing large part of your army in each successeful battle against her, or being totally annihilated. The max benefits that you can get from wining against her - is one crappy castle. Losing one castle is nothing when you have castles in every province.

Look. I've taken on an SG Ermor with a fair level of castle spam and a VQ that was being regularly lobbed at me, inside its own dominion. Hey, thanks for the castles, buddy!

And "losing a large part of your army"? You're joking, right? I don't call 5 Seraphs, a pair of Bane Lords, and an Air Queen a "large part of my army". I don't call 0 losses "losing".

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To compare VQ to SC banelord is just plain stupid.

SC Banelords can take down a VQ, particularly a poorly equipped one, if they attack quickly and aggressively. Even if you don't care to pit one head-to-head against the enemy's fully-equipped VQ, the fact of the matter is that you can cover more ground with SC Banelords than you can with a VQ. Think battleships, cruisers, and destroyers.

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AllFather, Natataraje, etc are strong SCs (and btw unlike VQ they are unique). But they are not immortal, so once they die even once they are crippled due to losing magic pathes that made them efficient.

So don't die. Ain't rocket science.

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They also risk taking battle injuries in each and every battle while they would be trying to defend "castled" dominion. VQ risk nothing.

The Arco Nataraja is as proof against afflictions as any VQ, due to the healing priestesses. Anyone can get GoH, Chalice, Fairy Queens.

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Norfleet is just trying to turn facts upside down in his usual manner. Playing "mad castling" with Natataraje for example is brittle , since once your pretender dead or crippled your resistanse is significantly weakened. Playing it with VQ is an opposite of that.

Got a mad castling game going with a Nataraja just fine. Got a mad castling game going with a freaking W9 Blue Dragon that I don't even use as an SC and has never left the freaking capitol. You don't need to use your pretender as an SC to play castles + Point defense SCs. Had a mad castling game going with a rainbow Archmage. Had another mad castling game going with an immobile Monolith.

Face it: The mad castling has little or nothing to do with a VQ pretender: Hell, I don't even always have to use SCs at all to defend my castling: Seraph Wrathing teams work just as well. Different strokes, different folks.

In fact, as my strategy and grasp has improved, I've been using the VQ less and less lately, rarely pitting it in combat against actual human players, instead spending most of my time summoning Air Queens, Ice Devils, and soforth. Gives you more mobility and better point-defense. Nonetheless, the burnination continues. Now I just keep her around because VQs are such great distractions: People like you will get so utterly fixated on her that you miss the bigger picture. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 26, 2004, 20:53: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: How to solve castling effect?

I think Norfleet means that since you have a force capable of defeating the vampire queen you are conquering territory and assimilating the fortress. The vampire queen by itself will not be able to retake the castles. So even though the VQ is coming back every turn they are still losing ground against you.

I can see this applying if your invading army was created in a way where you are not taking any (or only a few) losses against the VQ.

The vampire queen would need to be naked or they would be losing a lot of equipment every time they are defeated. I imagine it wouldn't be that difficult to defeat a naked vampire queen with the right force without taking many losses.

10 lighting bolts on the first round ought to take it out since the defender gets to go first?
Of course if the vampire queen was accompied by 20 vampires the story might change a bit...

Re: How to solve castling effect?

Quote:

Originally posted by Maltrease:
I think Norfleet means that since you have a force capable of defeating the vampire queen you are conquering territory and assimilating the fortress. The vampire queen by itself will not be able to retake the castles. So even though the VQ is coming back every turn they are still losing ground against you.

I can see this applying if your invading army was created in a way where you are not taking any (or only a few) losses against the VQ.

The vampire queen would need to be naked or they would be losing a lot of equipment every time they are defeated. I imagine it wouldn't be that difficult to defeat a naked vampire queen with the right force without taking many losses.

10 lighting bolts on the first round ought to take it out since the defender gets to go first?
Of course if the vampire queen was accompied by 20 vampires the story might change a bit...

You are correct about VQ not being able to take castles. But we are talking about VQ defending casltes, not attacking them.

And of course you don't send your naked VQ into the battle. Cheap and easely replacable gear on VQ can go a long way toward improving both her survivability and power.

Re: How to solve castling effect?

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Originally posted by Anglachel:
Or simply not have temples auto-destroy upon conquering of a province. Require a commander to take out a turn to dismantle it much like someone dismantling thier own buildings in thier own province. Make the timing of the dismantling of said building take place after movement and combat giving time for trying to retake the province and protect the temple. Of course this wouldn't really solve castling but would remove the need to use castles to protect temples somewhat anyways.

Just a thought.

Hrmmmmm, I think I just just saw the problem with the above "fix" thanks to Lintman mentioning the ghost rider spell. If casting the spell on a castle-less province with a temple in it that has to be dismantled by a commander then what would happen to the province when the temple doesn't go away and the province goes to independant status? Oh well, was a nice thought while it Lasted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: How to solve castling effect?

Quote:

Originally posted by Norfleet:
And "losing a large part of your army"? You're joking, right? I don't call 5 Seraphs, a pair of Bane Lords, and an Air Queen a "large part of my army". I don't call 0 losses "losing".

Heh. Sounds like you are giving away secrets. Loose lips! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: How to solve castling effect?

Quote:

Originally posted by Norfleet:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Stormbinder:
[qb]Bull****. You can kill VQ again and again and again, but it will be back immideatly just as strong (or stronger) as before, as long it is her dominion. (and with temples in every province it is always her dominion).

And every time this happens, she loses another castle and temple.

<hr /></blockquote>Wrong. You can attack with VQ every turn if you want to. You can't take more than 1 castled province per two turns with your army.

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Look. I've taken on an SG Ermor with a fair level of castle spam and a VQ that was being regularly lobbed at me, inside its own dominion. Hey, thanks for the castles, buddy!

And "losing a large part of your army"? You're joking, right? I don't call 5 Seraphs, a pair of Bane Lords, and an Air Queen a "large part of my army". I don't call 0 losses "losing".

I have no way of knowing what happened in these games that you are refering to, no do I know the level of your oppoennts that you are talking about. Given your history of lies and distortions you surely don't expect me to take your word on it.

The only possible and logical way for you to prove your point is to stop using the only tactic that you are constantly using to win your games, which is VQ + mad castling + clam hoarding. Up until now you have been always madcastling, you have been always clamhoarding, and you almost always use uberVQ pretenders. I observed it in each of my games where you was present, and I've seen it in several dozens of your other games that I've read about on this Boards, as well as from numerious other players who have played with you in the past, and who are sick of it just like I am. You can't deny it.

If you will win such games against experienced opponents than it'll be clear proof for everybody that you are indeed winning because of your skills and not because of the fact that you are using cheesy and exploitive strategy, that requres little skills to impliment. Since you never done that, prefering to use the same lame strategy in all your games, the rest of your "personal" examples is meaningless for the purpose of this discussion.

Personally I've been in 4 games with you so far, and it was always the same - mad castling, massive clamhoarding(unless prohibited), and uber-VQs. Must be purely coincidence of course... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

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To compare VQ to SC banelord is just plain stupid.

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SC Banelords can take down a VQ, particularly a poorly equipped one, if they attack quickly and aggressively. Even if you don't care to pit one head-to-head against the enemy's fully-equipped VQ, the fact of the matter is that you can cover more ground with SC Banelords than you can with a VQ. Think battleships, cruisers, and destroyers.

If you would know marine military history you would know, that you can't win major sea battle with cruisers and destroyers alone, against enemy float that includes battleships.

(we are not talking about modern ships of course, with nuclear anti-ship missiles)

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So don't die. Ain't rocket science.

Death can happen. To VQ as well to any other pretender. Nobody is invincible. But some are immortal.

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<blockquote>quote:<hr />They also risk taking battle injuries in each and every battle while they would be trying to defend "castled" dominion. VQ risk nothing.

The Arco Nataraja is as proof against afflictions as any VQ, due to the healing priestesses.

<hr /></blockquote>Arco is the only nation that have healing ability, as you should be aware of. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif And even Arco priestess can not cure death.

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Anyone can get GoH, Chalice, Fairy Queens.

Which are not avaliable until the end game. And none of them make your pretender immortal.

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Got a mad castling game going with a Nataraja just fine. Got a mad castling game going with a freaking W9 Blue Dragon that I don't even use as an SC and has never left the freaking capitol. You don't need to use your pretender as an SC to play castles + Point defense SCs. Had a mad castling game going with a rainbow Archmage. Had another mad castling game going with an immobile Monolith.

Again you are trying to dodge the question. I've said three times already that I am not disputing that mad castling can be done with none-VQ pretenders. But it is clear that VQ pretender multiplies effect of mad castling, that's why you are using VQ in a majority of your games.

And I've said that what you have said is not true, and mad castling with AllFather or BlueDragon is much more "brittle", as you put it, than with VQ. Are you disputing it?

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In fact, as my strategy and grasp has improved, I've been using the VQ less and less lately...
Now I just keep her around because VQs are such great distractions.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ May 26, 2004, 22:12: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: How to solve castling effect?

Quote:

Originally posted by Stormbinder:

And I've said that what you have said is not true, and mad castling with AllFather or BlueDragon is much more "brittle", as you put it, than with VQ. Are you disputing it?

I do not know about Norfleet, but I am disputing
it. I will take Odin against a VQ anyday. VQ is
better against masses of crap, but against SC and
thugs, including a VQ, Odin is significantly
better.

And both ARE brittle against a squad designed and
scripted to take them out.