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Re: Help, I suck with Ulm!

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Originally posted by Arralen:
I don't play Ulm, but I play Last of Tuatha quite often, so I might shed some light on the issue from a different perspective. There seem to be several shortcomings in your strategy ...

Cool.

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Sidhe ain't ordinary, they are holy, capital-only troops. Danoine Sidhe (troops) cost 35/16 (vs. Ulm inf 10/18+ and Black Knights 60/70+), the commanders are nearly prohibitive expensive. Add to this the fact that LoT has forced Luck-1 and Magic-1 and needs the magic for a decent blessing (Air-9 for lightning resistance in this case?). Result: The LoT player is hard pressed to get an decent income via order scale. But with taking order he nullifies his luck advantage. If he manages to outnumber your black knights by 30:8, you have build to few units. Did you choose order/prod scale and a high admin castle?

I'll admit that one fault is that I did not start up the spy unrest early enough. I'm taking care of that now (I have the spies, I was not doing it for diplomatic purposes). Nonetheless, I have "built a few units." That's the problem; those other units suck; they are not worth the massive amount of resources you pay for them. The black plate infantry dies too easily. I did juice both my order and production (offset by misfortune and drain), and I have a 40 admin castle.

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danoine sidhe have medium prot (13 - 1pt less than Blade Wind does damage), but high defense (15). With a Lvl-4 water blessing they'll be at 17, with 1-Star-Exp at 18, plus the glamour ability. Your inf has an attack of 10 (black knights 12), chances of your troops hitting his are rather slim (Check out the spreadsheet .. you'll find it on various sites).
His attack strength isn't that great either, but with 4 units of his attacking one of yours your defense is at -3 with the 4th attack - hit almost assured.
Conclusion: Make shure you'll have numerical superiority - this will nullify his high defense. Shouldn't be too hard, as you should have the better eco and the cheaper troops.

But that's just the problem. I don't have the cheaper troops. Oh, sure, they may cost less gold, but even with the high admin castles, you can pump out about 5 per turn on average (a little more in the capital, a little less elsewhere). I can't pump out anywhere near the amount to get the type of numerical advantage I seem to need.

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Use indy shortbows firing at short range into the melee. Storm wouldn't matter much this way. They won't do much damage to your heavily armored troops, but each hit will kill the glamour of the unit hit. (chances are 10+2d6/10+2d6+2)
Keep in mind, though, that this will cause moral checks for both sides, as there will be friendly fire incidences. so make shure you keep your morale high.

Well, I had archers (admittedly not short bows firing at close range, although I'm not sure how they would have gotten to close range). Of course, when you mention "keep your morale high," you toss one right into the wheelhouse of big Ulm problems - Morale.

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items on commanders
Looks like you spend way too much mage-time on forging items for commanders which die anyway.
Better convert your earth gems to gold to buy more troops in the beginning, so you can expand faster and with fewer losses.
So first send your commanders into melee (bodyguards!), and if anyone survives long enough to get a heroic ability, than deck him out with items. Keep their defense high enough not to get hit by every attack. Black Plate works only on mounted commanders, which do not suffer from negative defense from armor. First priority should be to make them more survivable, killing speed comes second.

No, I didn't actually create a ton of items, because as I mentioned, I realize that Ulm's commanders suck, and the items are wasted. I agree with your general assessment, but what it amounts to is that admitting that Ulm's forge bonus isn't really that valuable for Ulm.

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spells
Blade wind is fine against fodder and ethereal summons, but doesn't do much damage against medium armored troop, if at all. Buy cheap Ulm Inf as fodder and boost them with "Legions of Steel" .. they'll soak up some arrows and javelin/spear attacks from danoine sidhe.
Clockwork horrors are lightning resistant as mechanical men are.

I had some clockwork horrors, but they are so brittle. I agree that they are valuable, however, and I screwed up by losing a decent batch of them earlier in the game.

I agree with your assessment on the blade wind, but don't see alot of options for earth mages to kill high protection troops beside that.

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Hope this is helpful.
A.

It was. I appreciate the effort; don't take my responses as contrarian. It's just that I've been trying alot of the stuff you've mentioned, and it didn't gel. Another part of the admitted problem is that I'm stuck in the damn wasteland on this map.

[ July 02, 2004, 14:29: Message edited by: Sly Frog ]

Re: Help, I suck with Ulm!

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Originally posted by Sly Frog:
I agree with your assessment on the blade wind, but don't see alot of options for earth mages to kill high protection troops beside that.

Re: Help, I suck with Ulm!

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Originally posted by atul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sly Frog:
I agree with your assessment on the blade wind, but don't see alot of options for earth mages to kill high protection troops beside that.

I haven't played much Ulm, but their mages were EEF, right? Two words: Magma spells.

At Evoc3 Magma Bolts, 3 bolts with 23+ AP damage, at Evoc6 Magma Eruption, area effect 23+ AP damage.

At least in theory they should work a lot better than Blade Wind against high protection. <hr /></blockquote>I will chime in on Magma Eruption. It is a beautiful spell that I've had very good success with in the past. Make sure to cast Earth power first, and the casualties will mount. Magma Bolts is a servicable workhorse of a spell, as well. I think it's one of the better low-level evocations, and I always make frequent use of it when I can.

Huzardadi, were you Pythium? I really wish you hadn't quit. After seeing one of your battles with Abysia where you wiped the floor with him, and then subsequently punked Caelum's air queen, I'm quite honestly surprised that you dropped out. It looked to me like you were in a pretty good position. Having an AI in your place will really help out your hostile neighbors, which, unfortunately, are not me.

Sly, sorry about the confusion. I feel bad about the fate of Jotunheim. It seems like the only defense against an early dogpile is to try to convince other neighbors to attack the weak flanks of your enemies.

Ulm in our game is a tough nut to crack. I'm going to do my level best, though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Help, I suck with Ulm!

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Huzardadi, were you Pythium? I really wish you hadn't quit. After seeing one of your battles with Abysia where you wiped the floor with him, and then subsequently punked Caelum's air queen, I'm quite honestly surprised that you dropped out. It looked to me like you were in a pretty good position. Having an AI in your place will really help out your hostile neighbors, which, unfortunately, are not me.

Well there are plenty more Abysian armies out there.

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Sly, sorry about the confusion. I feel bad about the fate of Jotunheim. It seems like the only defense against an early dogpile is to try to convince other neighbors to attack the weak flanks of your enemies.

I have to agree with that. The only defence seems to be availiable if the diplomatic suitation is fluid. In both Jotuhheim's and My case the alliances were set and there was nothing to be done. He did fight until the Last man though. Got to give him credit. I OTOH got to attached to my empire to see it split up the hordes.

Re: Help, I suck with Ulm!

Well because Sly Frog seems to be having a little bit of a hard time finding help with Base (Yes?) Ulm, I have a few suggestions some of which may be helpful, some may not be plausible in your current or future games and some have been mentioned but I just want to list everything that I have had success with while playing Ulm:

1.) Spies. Spies provide a distractionary force as well a gold cutter. How I use them is by placing one on nearby provinces and any province that has a castle or indep capability use a dogpile of Spies to jump the Unrest immediately to 200. Usually 8 will do. Then stealth away to a nearby province either making my opponent use money for PD or near a magical attack squad so their 'retreat' orders won't leave them stranded or dead.

2.) Master Smiths. These fellows have a variety of uses. I will list a few of the common tactics with them.

Combat Support Mages: Focus on Earthquake, Blade Wind, Destruction, Magma Eruption, Magma Bolts, Earth Meld, Strength of Giants, Legion of Steel, Weapons of Sharpness etc
Forging Ability: Contrary to the previous posters in this thread, I have always found Black Knight Commanders properly equipped to be much more of a flanking force than the Black Knight units. Equipped with the right weapons, they can beat other mini-combatants and situational casters (Wrath for example). Also I tend to make alot of Bane Lord/Firbolgs with the proper equipment that in the proper numbers will defeat most other single SC's and armies
Combat Mages: Give your Smiths a decent forged weapon and a pair of winged boots scripted with: Summon Earthpower, Invulnerability, Fire Shield, then attack. They can turn the tide of a battle especialy in masse.

3.) Everyone knows that Base Ulm has a weakness with morale. Counter that base priest morale with items, easy items to use are Horns of Valor, Herald Lances.

4.) The often underestimated Siege units. If/when the Lord Guardian gets a significant Castle Defense bonus (akin to the Siege Engineer) you can use take and hold measures. As it is right now you can use Guardians and Sappers to fortify and create large mass pushes against castle fronts. Usually 10-20 Sappers (Which I find better than Art's) is enough to drop a Castle Wall near instantly.

5.) Forge of the Ancients. The Most important Ulm spell there is. Even if all you get is one turn of this spell it drops the price of gems so low, you can create a huge stockpile of equipment for equipping waiting or on the way SC's to fill the gaps of your normal army.

6.) Your Normal Army with the aid of Support Magics should be able to take on most other normal armies, sans high strength. Even then, with Strength of the Giants, Marble Warriors and Legion of Steel they create a harsh buffer or body wall. As long as you are able to protect a good portion of them from mass battlefield spells (Wrath, Firestorm, etc) with quick reaction teams/squads (Spring Hawks, Flying Commanders, etc) it will force your opponent to engage it otherwise he will lose a good portion of income/land. As long as you know and are prepared for this, you can weigh the battle to your side.

7.) Independants are more important to Ulm than some other nations. But you will always have a chance to get Independants. Whether from Sites or from base Province type you will always have at least one province with a mage with different paths. It is important to take advantage of these as soon as possible.

8.) The pretender design for Ulm is the key component. If you're unable to fill the gaps in the magical diversity of Ulm with a Pretender then you've already lost the game since there is only so much you can do with a single 1F2E mage.

9.) Scout Blood Hunting for Ulm is still valid. While not as good as it was it still can represent a large factor in Ulm's strategy.

Re: Help, I suck with Ulm!

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Originally posted by Norfleet:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cainehill:
Given decent troops, seems like Thunderward might keep them alive long enough to kill the caster of Wrathful Skies. Caster dies, the spell dies, right?

If the caster is still *THERE*, yeah. If the caster decides to remove his august presence from the battlefield, it won't end until every Last enemy is dead.
<hr /></blockquote>Hrm. That seems bogus, the spell continuing after the caster has retreated or left via spell. After all - if the spell can continue, unending, with the caster not being there, then the spell would still be going, months later. And why would it stop after the caster's army was defeated? The troops aren't keeping the spell going, so Wrathful Skies ought to just keep going and going and going until all troops are dead.

Re: Help, I suck with Ulm!

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Originally posted by Cainehill:
Hrm. That seems bogus, the spell continuing after the caster has retreated or left via spell. After all - if the spell can continue, unending, with the caster not being there, then the spell would still be going, months later.

He didn't die, so I guess the spell keeps going. Since he now can't be killed, because he's not present anymore, it'll keep going until the battle ends. It would certainly change things if the Storm and Wrathing ended when the staffbearer and caster left. This would open up other interesting SoS tricks, though.

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And why would it stop after the caster's army was defeated? The troops aren't keeping the spell going, so Wrathful Skies ought to just keep going and going and going until all troops are dead.

Presumably, the wrathing could very well continue after the caster's army has been destroyed, but since the attacker no longer has any reason to remain in that locality, and the spell probably is only over a limited area since the province's population is not decimated by it, the attacking army elects to quickly flee the scene offscreen after the battle ends. Since nobody is there anymore, I suppose the caster then no longer has any incentive to continue to maintain the spell.

Re: Help, I suck with Ulm!

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Re: Help, I suck with Ulm!

If your Ulmish army doesn't have enough heavy infantry, build the lesser-equipped Versions until it does, then later build the more heavily-armored ones. The Plate + Shield ones are better at surviving very powerful blows, but even the guys in chainmail with no shield can survive a lot of abuse, and they can be built about twice as fast.

I bet arbalests can do some good work in storms, because (I assume) their reload time of 3 means their net rate of fire is less effected by not being able to fire for a turn or two (since reloading probably isn't interrupted (reloading isn't even interrupted by melee, even though it should be...) - just firing).

Since Ulmish heavy troops take a long time to build, it's important to keep them alive longer by including fodder in your armies. Guys who are there mainly to get killed instead of your expensive troops.

The Black Knights (and Templars) are generally too expensive to try to make your head-on force. I've had much more luck using them as a delayed flanking force, so they don't charge straight into something too dense and deadly.

Ulm should avoid using its heavy armor against foes that bypass their heavy armor - you need to find something cheaper and without the heavy armor to throw at such threats.

PvK

Re: Help, I suck with Ulm!

All very useful advice. I guess my general problem is that black plate is supposed to be the strength of Ulm, yet it seems to not really have that much of an advantage against other factions' normal troops, particularly in light of the cost difference. Yet the other factions certainly have a major magic advantage against Ulm.

I guess if I were to suggest a juice, which as a novice I clearly cannot say is necessary, but would seem to me to fit with the Ulm theme and have an interesting impact on play, it would be to increase the ordinary Ulmish magic resistance. In this way, you would give them a bit of a boost against their magic using counterparts, and it would fit in with the Ulmish idea of a race of iron and steel resistant to magic.