Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure it fits. He's a corrupted nature mage.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And you give him the Hammer of cyclops and forge everything for free? Perhaps not... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think Ulm should start with a feebleminded knight commander with 8 morale, 8 strength named 'Cohen'. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Everyone loves the Log Wielder! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ja, Caelos is definately crappier. He's a priest with a ring of cold resistance.

What about Whatshisname, the Wolflord? Great, a midget on a wolf.

I don't exactly jump for joy when the Master of the Games, the fat guy on the lizard, or that other non-priest hero of Pythium show up and start using precious oxygen.

But not every hero, I suppose, can be a Stargazer or a Dude with an Iron Crutch. And all of them use less upkeep than "A group of zealots have decided to hold out their hand for a paycheck".
I think a remnant of old Pan isn't completely out of place in CW.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

Imho a hero should be as strong as one of the better summons. Why? They are unique and should
be capable of doing some heroic deeds.
Those guys that are only a bit better than your average commander aren't worth the title.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So the champion of a nation should rival Abomination, you say? Or maybe you mean King of Elemental Earth.

[sarcasm]
Yeah, sure, there is only one dude who was born that night and given that name and who found a unicorn when he was a kid, while there are *3* dudes who are embodiment of the Earth, Stone and Rock (or Magma) itself! And he is *weaker* than *them*! What fun is in a free commander, better than your own, often expensive ones, when after 25-35 game turns, level 5 mage and 50 gems you will have a better fighter anyway!
[/sarcasm]


Those heroes *are* capable of doing heroic deeds. But they are mortals, and won't be able to kill hundreds or thousands other mortals all alone (except when pillaging for several years). Some might have survived through hundreds of gladiatorial battles and will still give any human a good fight, and who might stand on his own (for a short while) even after several if he was given even the simpliest protective gear.

And Spornsjarl (I think, the Vaetti hero for Jotunheim) is not only a *stealthy* commander, but also much better at it than other stealthy commanders available to Jotunheim AND also has *standard*. No more routing! He won't be *as* *good* as stealthy Holy-4 prophet would, but he might be just enough.

---------------
Star Control 2 is *good*. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I never said all heroes are bad.
But if you look at R'lyeh, you will see that their heroes are capable of dealing with elemental kings/queens.

By "better summons" I actually thought about something bane lord sized. He is a midgame summon, not invincible, but there are only few heroes able to beat him when both meet unequipped. Take the log guy for example.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

Perhaps the heroes are part of the overall balance? Now, T'ien C'hi, who is often said to be too weak, has strong heroes. They might not be able to kill Bane Lords, but they have wonderful abilities and all of them are highly thematic.

Also, the point of all heroes is not to fight. Some can command more units that your normal commanders, some have special abilities (Master of the Iron Crutch! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ), some offer your nation magics they don't usually have (that high), some are just thematic, some offer more of what you already have and some are combatants. Good or bad, it doesn't really matter. They weren't developed to rival gods! Good heroes are special abilities of some nations, just like type of armies, heat preference, priestly power and magical specialisation mentioned in their description.

Also, imagine your opponent's face if Spornsjarl the Vaetti Hero (or champion, or whatever) gets the Heroic Hitpoints -ability and doubles the hitpoints of his bigger "friends"... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif That will probably never happen, but who knows. This is
Dominions II, after all!

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I completely agree with you. The Tien Chi heroes are very usefull and thematic. I think that most caster heroes like the harpy queen for pangaea add something special to their nation, like a new magic path or some other special ability (like the pan assasin). I was writing about pure melee heroes.

Re: get that bull out of my grove!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And some heroes are just there to make you curse and grumble that you didn't get somebody else, once you've seen them a few times and realized that they can't seem to do anything useful except walk in circles around your territory.