Re: The Vine Ogre
 

Does anyone really think the VO's for 1 or .5 gems are too strong?

Maybe we should be negotiating the price of Ivy Kings instead of Vine Ogres.

Re: The Vine Ogre
 

I should have been more clear. IF they cost 2 gems per casting then they would still cost 1 gem for nature summoning during the early game.

So, maybe an Ivy King should cost 30 gems. I think they'd still be worth it.

Re: The Vine Ogre
 

Hm i almost always ignore them and invest my nature gems in fever fetishes or GoH instead .
In lategame also in lots of Ivy Kings or Haunted Forest .

Re: The Vine Ogre
 

Yeah, everything you said is true. Morale is included in the simulator, but it is only important for 2 things: 1) repel attempts, and 2) going berserk check. Units don't rout in the sim. As for what the numbers mean... um. Don't worry about them too much, but the far left number is the size of a group that makes it about equal in strength to the other groups. The only thing the other numbers matter for in this mode is that the simulator tries to make the far right number equal to 1000 by adjusting group size.

Personally, I feel that ogres are much better than demons in many roles because they do not require special leadership. Raising an army of demons requires upkeep for the special leaders (especially with big groups) who have to be mages. Raising an army of vine ogres only requires a single 30g indy leader per 25 ogres.

Re: The Vine Ogre
 

Also, corpse constructs require undead leadership, are easily banished, and (essentially) require Earth magic for the lighting rods. They are so so so vastly inferior it is amazing. I'd rather summon (temporary) lesser air elementals with air gems than corpse constructs.

Re: The Vine Ogre
 

Unless these numbers take into account positioning, and multiple attacks on a single target they don't really mean too much.

Re: The Vine Ogre
 

They ignore positioning; eveything is assumed to be in range of everything else. Multiple attacks are allowed (originating from or terminating on any unit). But I don't think positioning makes the numbers invalid in this case. The only times when positioning is really important are when projectiles, area effect weapons, heat/cold/poison auras, trample, or magic are involved... or when one group outnumbers another group by a factor of 24:1 or so (depending on the size). None of these play a role in this scenario, so I doubt the numbers differ from reality to a noticable degree, aside from the routing issue, which would make vine units and undeads relatively much more potent compared to humans, but not change their balance relative to each other.

Re: The Vine Ogre
 

Vine Ogres are ricoculously good, and Corpse Constructs are way too crappy. Both of these are true.

Personally, I'd just like Vine Ogres to eat. This would make them chew up 2 supplies each, and provide a good solid reason for Nature Mages to back up the Vine Ogres. As is, people are summoning armies of like 200+ Vine Ogres and sitting around on them waiting for wars to break out. That's the part that's not cool. It isn't that people are grabbing medium sized piles of Vine Ogres for use as early game meat shields - it's that you can put so very very many of them in a single pile that is so painful. They could need to eat and have forest survival. It would be great.

BTW, Terrain Survival should make you need half as many supplies while in that terrain, in addition to having a 50% chance of ignoring a starvation hit. That would encourage people to store Vine Ogres in the woods, where they are supposed to be...

---

On a different but related note, Corpse Constructs should be immune to banishment. They could still require undead leadership, just not actually be undead. That would give them a reason for existence that they currently don't have. Even with a Staff of Storms, it's pretty hard to justify spending a whole turn of spellcasting just to get 6 Corpse Men, the fact that it also costs an actual Air Gem is just icing on the cake.

And they should carry clubs. Or attack with both fists. Or know Kung Fu. Or something. Right now, they have such a bad skill set that the craptastic weapon line makes them too terrible.

-Frank

Re: The Vine Ogre
 

1. I am taking "overwhelming consensus" from the thread on Low Level Summons. There is a consensus that no-one ever spends gems on them except for Vine Ogres, which are a great bargain.
2. I do NOT mean by this that the VO is overpowered absolutely (compared to all other units) -- what a stupid thing to want to say!
3. I do NOT mean that the VO should be balanced compared to all the other chaff out there which no-one ever gets. There is just no way that the dev team will be able to balance all the summons out in an upcoming patch! I thought I would stick to the small things that people do use.
4. That a VO is inferior in every way to, say, a devil, or a FoD, etc. is making a point in my book: Devil Factories are no-brainers.
Maybe it is just a silly idea to want to balance any one unit out without changing the entire game. So... I'll retract the idea for now ... but would like to keep it in mind for future patches or dom3.

Re: The Vine Ogre
 

If your enemy has giant groups of vine ogres, he probably also has a good sized group of Ivy Kings/Treelords, and your problem are likely a lot more significant than just a bunch of vine ogres.

(spelling corrected)