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Re: Basic Multiplayer tips wanted
The upcoming patch makes svartalfs cap only, which basically cuts their research potential in HALF outside of capital recruitment (svartalfs = 8 RP for 180 gold with magic 1, Helkarls/Vanherse = 4 RP for 160 gold...they're sacred and xp scales better for them, but they also take a temple on top of a lab to make). That alone should be enough to keep them away from at least half the uniques, worst case (summons or items). Plus there's talk of changing battlefield glamour, and the resource costs for their units are going up IIRC...things should be fixed soon. Hopefully not over-fixed.
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Re: Basic Multiplayer tips wanted
Jute, don't get the wrong idea. MP play is awesome and a lot of fun. I suspect in the course of the next few months someone will find an innovative way of taking care of Helheim that may or may not include massive dogpiling on the the Helheim player. Also, we got a glamour fix on the horizon, this should help matters as well.
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Re: Basic Multiplayer tips wanted
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It's not even about the dual-blessed helhirding, (though I'm sure they're formidable) as I'm playing with the human rainbow pretender that was discouraged earlier in this thread (I have to say that so far in my limited experience I'm liking them on big, magic-rich maps though) but the nation just has so much going for them... * Unparalelled expansion ability. Obviously dual blessed Helhirding will tear through anything, but even with the modest bless I was playing with (4f4w - and 4a, but the bless was not the reason I had air) you can take on prity much any independents or early game armies with minimal losses. * Research: with decently priced mages, and the ability to forge quills, skull mentors and lightless lanterns, you might not be the nr.1 research nation in the game, but there's nothing stopping you from entering a research race if you're so inclined. * Mid-game power: Once the research starts ticking in, even your fabulous glamour boys won't win your battles single-handedly anymore, but there's no need to worry. With the ability to cast blade wind, magma eruption, shadow blast and skellie spam, Svartalfs don't lack for killing power. With thugable commanders, and the ability to summon the various undead thugs you have another option at your disposal at this stage of the game. * Late game: With the ability to get 3A and 4D on your recruitable commanders you have a nice start in two of the powerful late-game magic paths. If you plan for a way to get air boosters (hence the 4A on my pretender, though there are other, less certain ways) you're set in both schools. You do lack astral though. (and the blood is quite marginal) All in all you might not have the greatest late-game potential of the game right out of the box, but you do have some starting options, and you can work them into your long-term planning. *unparallelled mobility (well, unparallelled until late game astral mass teleportation at least), stealth, powerful raiding ability, allowing you to take control of the situation. You fight when you want, where you want. On your terms. This so far is actually the greatest difference to my Ulm and Abysia games, where I was stuck with my mapmove one armies. Now, all the above wasn't meant as a discussion of Helheim (has been done enough in other threads, really), but to show you how a particular nation deals with the different phases/areas of the game. Expansion, Research, Mid-game, Late-game, and Mobility/Raiding. Obviously you can't be equally strong in all areas, but at least keep them in mind when developping your strategy. If you're weak in an area, try to find ways to compensate. The importance of the Mobility/Raiding part was a lesson I (probably) learned too late to win my previous games. Neither of these two nations excel at this part of the game. Things I did, or should have done, or thought about too late, to try and compensate include: * Outguess your oponent so he attacks a defended province, and gets his backside handed to him... Easier said than done obviously. * Equip/recruit/summon some flying/stealthy stuff of your own. Abyssian demonbred with a devil squad, any kind of thug/sc equiped with boots of flying (or stymphalian wings), Draconians... even if not very powerful they can at least be enough to recapture the provinces your enemy took. Later in the game a squad of equiped thugs/SC's can take out many armies. There also are a couple of stealthy summons. A couple of ghosts led by a druid or a spectre might not be terribly impressive, but they can do something at least mildly annoying. And anything that keeps your enemy reacting to what you're doing is good. Thugs/SC with astral or air (or death, or nature, but that's more expensive in both research and gems) can attack any province on the map. Just be aware they can't teleport away again without lab... They can also teleport on top of that annoying raiding party that's been troubling you. Or on top of that annoying teleporting guy that just took out your raiding party. Or on top of that annoying teleporting guy that teleported on top of the teleporting guy you used to take out the annoying raiding party. Or... erm... you know * Assessinate the leaders of raiding/flying squads, leaving the troops stranded in the middle of your territory. Easier with assessin spells, but you might try the outgessing trick with regular assessins too. Does not work on stealthy troops though. (As I found out to my great regret http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif) * If you're not very strong in the raiding department (or even if you are) You can substitute long range attack spells for your raiding parties. Ghost Riders (6D) and Send Horror (3B4S) both have steep path requirements, but if you have a way to cast them (preferably with a scout in place to actually capture the province once the defenders are eliminated), they're awesome. After being on the receiving end of a Ghost Riding barrage taking anywhere between 6 and 12 provinces per turn I'm not sure I'll ever be able to sleep again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/Injured.gif On the other hand, I have yet to see Call of the Winds be succesfully used in this way. It's a great spell to get a flying commander, or patrolling troops, but I can only imagine how many castings you need to take out even moderatly adequate PD. Once it was cast at a province of mine where I had forgotten to improve the PD past one, and even then the birds just fled. ... pant, pant... See? This is the reason why I usually refrain from discussing tactical stuff, once I start writing I can't seem to stop... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Ah, well. Two more short points: * Having many cool artifacts is fun, no doubt about it. But I think generally speaking the best ones aren't the cool and flashy ones, but the mundane pathboosting items. In the game in question I managed to grab Sceptre of Dark Regency 3D booster, which allowed me to get to 8D, which gave me access to Tartarians (7 is enough, but wasn't otherwise atainable to me) Even better, getting Dimensional Rod enabled me to forge Rings of sorcery (with independen 2S mages, or my 2S pretender), which in turn enebled me to forge rings of wizardry. Which again gave me a way to cast Tartarians. (4D commander with Skull Staff, Skull Face, and Ring of Sorcery. Obviously that's a lot of gems, and I don't have 17 of those running around, but it does give me another option again. The Ring of Wizardry again helped in summoning Fire and Water Kings/Queens which would otherwise only have been possible with my pretender. (though I was surprised no other nation had gotten them by that point, but hey, I'm not complaining) Without the Ring of Sorcery I also wouldn't have been able to boost a Lizard Shaman to the 3N1S needed to forge a Moonvie Bracelet And so on and so on. Now I will say this was not all meticulously planned out beforehand, but if I hadn't managed to get those booster items first my position wouldn't have been nearly so strong now. * I never cast Forge of the Ancients in that game. I did want too, but I didn't have nearly enough earth income. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif |
Re: Basic Multiplayer tips wanted
Aye Amhazahair, you were one of the people in question http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. In the two other games the Helheim player actually has FOTA up.
Honestly, I think the reason you are doing well in our current game isn't just because your playing Helheim. It is because you seemed to be the only player that took the initiative to forge those things. As far as rainbow pretenders go. The only huge multiplayer game I won was with a rainbow pretender. It was a Pantheon victory in the end because the map was so massive the few remaining players decided to call it a day, but I was really surprised how well my Master Druid rainbow guy worked out in that game. I had a massive gem income, tons of unique artifacts and I could cast pretty much every enchantment in the game with him after I loaded him down with path boosters, including Astral Corruption, Utterdark, and the Looming Hell. Which I did cast that game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif |
Re: Basic Multiplayer tips wanted
Some things I learned the hard way :
- having an early fast expansion in a line can be desastrous. At the end, your army is weakened by this expansion. If you meet no agressive opponent, everything is fine. But if you meet one, he will take all your new conquered provinces one by one since the PD is often not enough to repel him. And all the gold you wasted on PD means less gold for buying new soldiers... - finding a good ally is hard. Trying to convince people to crush the winning guy can be hard too. People are often involved with their own affairs/struggle. - when the game reachs his mid-part, PD is almost useless since you can see 300+ people army wandering around. Spells unleashed are so powerfull at this time, you can see a 100 PD make only 20 deaths to the attacker's army. The PD can be good though to support any army of yours, especially on chock-point. - underwater nations are usually a good way to not be rushed in the early turns (especially if you got the chance to be alone underwater). Unfortunately getting on land is usually very hard too. At least for me ! - diversify your troops or you may face a special counter. - it may be good to not make early research and to make your early military expansion a priority. - Don't play as Lanka near vfb because he will attack you just to make a good story and for fun !! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif |
Re: Basic Multiplayer tips wanted
Nice points, except for the last one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. And I'm going to blame that on K anyway.
Admit it though, it was fun for you too! |
Re: Basic Multiplayer tips wanted
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Also - most of your attacks against indy forces should go off with very minimal losses so it shouldn't really damage your troop count too much. Obviously, sometimes you can't help it but if you are losing significant forces to indy provinces regularly you might be doing something wrong... |
Re: Basic Multiplayer tips wanted
I would say, whether it is pointless or not, that it depends on what the PD is composed of.
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Re: Basic Multiplayer tips wanted
Here's a basic tip for early game SP or MP:
Keep at least one commander (an indie is fine) behind your army(s) of expansion. If you do suffer some sort of setback (I've often captured a province, but had significant portions of my army rout back the way it came before the outcome was settled), it will minimize your "downtime" before you can get offensive operations back on track. Pause a turn to recruit reinforcements with your main army, while your trailing commander brings up the stragglers/cowards, and then you're back on the move. Actually works best on those risky "line" expansions, as your routers have only one way to flee http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif |
Re: Basic Multiplayer tips wanted
Score graphs: good or bad? The impression that I'm getting is that unless you can get a very early, very large lead in provinces its best to just be in the top third? otherwise you'll get ganged? To small and you get gobbled up? Research - do you generally find a huge research lead is grounds for a gang up? Forts - probably not so much Income - ? gem income - ? Seems like you almost have to play the graphs along with your diplomacy game. For example, I took my last expandable province in a game just to have my main army doing something... the previous province leader lost a province and it put me on top. Oh crap http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif So then diplomacy comes into play. --------------- Random - are elephants/mammoths worth it for the late game? Do you have to jack the morale significantly or does it not make a difference? Is there enough magic floating around that the investment and routing possibilities isn't worth it? |
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