Originally Posted by rabelais (Post 661511)

3. azure mage's text claim they can extend the waterbreathing ability to their followers, but it does not appear to be so... bug?

Originally Posted by vfb (Post 661680)

Here's a list of water mages who can bring other units underwater

Originally Posted by Soyweiser (Post 659767)

Yes, that is true, the second is worth less in proportion. But not in game terms. Having a nation with better researchers is always good. And because you always recruit at least one mage each turn for research. The relatively small additional +1 bonus grows to a large bonus in the end.

Research is so important for getting into the end-game, that having a large bonus on research, or a large penalty. Determines if you get there faster or slower.

If we both play nations with the same kind of national mages, the one with the highest magic rating will probably get the end game spells quicker. In that regard having a large bonus (from magic-3) or a large penalty (from drain-3) should be worth more points than only the lesser penalties or bonuses.

Higher magic also makes the indy mages (such as shamans) better suited for research. And when you look at this combined with multiple fortresses, the little proportional bonus of the second +1 grows to a very large bonus.

The same with drain-3. Your research is really down the drain. Most indy mages only give 1 rp. So are totally not worth it.

The gold cost per rp is also decreased with a higher magic. With Shinuyama for example, normally you pay 300 for a 10 rp unit. so that is 30 for each 1 rp. with a 1 gold upkeep for each rp.
Drain -3 -> 37,5 per rp, 1,25 gold upkeep
Drain -2 -1 -> 33,33 per rp, 1,11 gold upkeep
Magic +1 +2 -> 27,27 per rp, 0.90 gold upkeep
Magic +3 -> 25 per rp, 0.83 gold upkeep

So if you buy 10 of them, one each turn, after eleven turns you have the following totals rp (buying ten, one each turn for eleven turns gives you 55 turns of research).
-3 : 440
-2 -1 : 495
+0 : 550
+1 +2 : 605
+3 : 660

So having a high magic rating gives you a very large research bonus over nations not having a large magic bonus. Having a leading position in research should be worth more points.

And taking drain-3 is always taking a large risk. If a nation takes -3 and some other nation has +3, you have a very large research gap very fast.

(This is also why imho LA-ermor shouldn't take drain. They cannot recruit mages (no gold), only summon them. The mages are in short supply, so if you get behind in research it is almost impossible to close the gap. And you really need to get the late game/mid game spells with LA-ermor).

So while proportionally the first +1 might be worth more, in strategic terms the second +1 is imho worth more. It gives you a large cumulative advantage, and it increases the already existing advantage.

Edit:
Total RP after 21 turns for different nations (20 recruited base 10 rp mages) (20 recruited base 6 rp mages (seems to be the average of recruitable mages))
-3 1760 880
-2 1980 1100
+0 2200 1320
+1 2420 1540
+3 2640 1760
220 mage turns of research.

Originally Posted by lch (Post 661694)

Actually, you need to multiply your numbers by two because you seem to have used human-sized (size 2) units. The Lady of Fortunes (601) has a value of 30, too, and the Lady of Fortune (1344) a value of 50. But they're not (semi-)amphibian, so maybe their own size counts towards this limit, too.

Originally Posted by vfb (Post 661680)

Here's a list of water mages who can bring other units underwater:

[...]
Angakok (#1618, Atlantis recruitable) 10
[...]
Forgiving Father (#2083, Atlantis recruitable) 5
[...]