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Re: is aircraft worth it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mobhack (Post 685584)

Aircraft are not very useful items for close support - they never have been. The WW2 myth of tank-busting Typoons was just that - it was the trucks they destroyed, and so starved the tanks of fuel and ammo. Operations research post-war showed tiny actual percentages of kills by air on armoured targets. Any vehicle with a tin roof was actually rather immune to air attack. The Balkans ops were the same result, as were the Gulf War - even though that was in an open desert. The real tank killing was when the MBT turned up. Planes are better used for interdiction missions against the enemy supply lines than trying to plink tanks on the battlefield. CAS is really only a make-work mission for an Air Force that has surplus planes after that main effort.

SP does not model the operational and strategic levels - so you cannot go for his fuel convoys, arty batteries and ammo dumps in his operational depth.

CAS aircraft are really only worth the bother if you have complete air supremacy, to include having beaten down all AAA assets by a campaign of attrition. That can be modelled in a scenario, by not buying the enemy any air defence or only a few etc.

The only other reason for using CAS fixed wing air is to support land forces that are outside artillery support range. Other than a scenario situation, SP battles are automatically in artillery range of each other (long range C/B being about the only range issue).

Apart from some armies that historically have no AAA (e.g. Iraqi SAMS are unavailable at certain points, or the AI pick list simply ignores them), any AI-bought force will buy a healthy dose of AAA assets, and is more likely to buy more if it does not have air assets itself.

So - you could decide to play the long game and suppress the AAA assets before trying for the land forces (use of SEAD, artillery to counter any detected launch sites etc). But that is not going to contribute to the land battle, except perhaps to make it easier for any rotary wing air support. Enemy ADA assets generally are not much cop against the normal land forces after all, bar say ADATS.

Therefore unless it is a scenario which allows for the peculiarities of fixed wing CAS (it is a scenario with a lost patrol who only can get air CAS, or the Air Force has been presumed to blat all ADA assets over several weeks campaigning) then I really would not much bother with it past about say the 1973/5 period (Yom Kippur and Vietnam). Up till then and in WW2 the planes have a chance of surviving against air defences, but when radar directed AAA and useful SAMS get commonplace then, scenario use only IMHO.

Apart from that in generated games, I would tend to only use rotary wing assets, RPV etc. Attack helos can be reloaded, after all, and can use the ground contours as cover.

Since the armies are in arty support range, I would use the points on arty instead. Recce by scout helo or RPV used intelligently.

In WW2 and the 45-75 period, when attacking then I will buy strike fixed wing air once I have bought enough tube arty to support the attack. I programme them for reconnaissance strikes on my planned approach. If they survive, then that is gravy but the info about where tanks are placed in the defence is the main thing they are there to determine.

Of course - you can get an opponent in PBEM who forgets to buy ADA assets. That happened to me once, and my Hunters ruled the battlefield especially since once I realised his error, I could plan my passes from the rear of his side of the board to attack the tanks in the bum with 30mm ADEN fires :)!:

This quote is in the Military Quotations section of the GG and is perfectly true:

"The power of an air force is terrific when there is nothing to oppose it.", Winston Churchill: The Gathering storm, 1948

Cheers
Andy

hmm to bad,i really like using planes espacilly ones with bomb,o well

Re: is aircraft worth it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoplitis (Post 685644)

Wouldn't your offmap (divisional/corps) artilery be protected by ADAs too? Wouldn't you need to include an "abstract" Air Defense battle?
.... uhmmm :dk:

As I said, just a wild idea... Might be solved by letting planes pass over the map in "Level bomber" altitude, ie to be engaged only by heavier SAMs and not MANPADS and light AA?

Re: is aircraft worth it?

I usualy go heavy with helicopters and people who have played against me at least once know that and are always ready with heavy air defences. I still don't see a particular problem with using fixed wing craft. I play modern battles almost exclusively. I just always make sure I use heavy SEAD missions who even if they don't destroy/disable SAMs, they do manage to draw several missiles to them, with some UAVs as an additional force, most of the dangerous air defences are, in one way or the other, neutralised, and the Strike crafts are more or less unopposed to do their work.
Considering I play as Greece which doesn't have some of the planes of major powers, and still manage to use them, it leads me to believe that perhaps you guys are not following the right tactics, or just are very unlucky.

If for example I only sent strike aircraft without any preparation, I don't know how many of them would make it to a second run. I realise that perhaps buying an expensive SEAD element (or of course more than a couple) might be seen as waste of money, but unless you go with 20+ stike crafts in the same turn, I don't see fixed wing craft working that well against a good opponent.

Just work more on it, but don't expect miracles. They can't win a battle on their own.

And if anyone wants to try it, please check this thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42821 (wink wink)

Re: is aircraft worth it?

I think, you could use aircraft for interdiction missions, too. Ideally bombers with tons of heavy bombs could slow down enemy advance when bombing main road along its direction.. crates on the road make the move slower. Of course, this could be done with arty as well, but not in such a nice row :)

Personally I don't often play against full AI(purchase, deploy) at least I make the purchase.

I agree, aircrafts are good for scenarios and for PBEM when respecting some purchasing rules.

Re: is aircraft worth it?

Hmmm, i think aircraft is worth if you use them the right way, obviously you need luck, but it doesn't play a major if your tactics are good,shell the enemy possible AA emplacements just before the strike IE, buy arty first, then aircraft, so that howitzers fire before aicraft expose, use SEAD, if the enemy has average AA, if good SAMs expected, get more SEAD,and some mortar to kill manpads

Re: is aircraft worth it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by iCaMpWiThAWP (Post 685794)

Very good advice CaMpWiThAWP.
Always buy artillery before aircraft, so it fires to suppress air defenses just before a strike.
Also Buy SEAD aircraft first to help with last moment suppression.

Myself I tend to use aircraft mostly for on map counter battery missions, i.e. knocking out mortars and such. Usually takes 3 to 5 turns before you've spotted the positions via the smoke and if you use UAV's and the occasional helo pop-up to spot (and possibly run outta missiles) MANPADS I find it works fairly well. Around turn 10 in most games you're starting your initial assaults and not having enemy arty/mortars landing on you while you're doing so helps a lot.

Andy's (Mobhack) comments on real world aircraft effectiveness are spot on. At operational levels aircraft are invaluable, at tactical you're usually better served by artillery in-game (and often in real life).

And Marek_Tucan's quote about the 1st Gulf - "During the 30 days of air raids I have lost two tanks. Then, during 30 minutes of land combat, the rest." is correct if not quite complete ... it should read "During the 30 days of air raids I have lost two tanks. Then in 30 minutes of combat the with the Abrams tank, the rest." or something very close to that.

Re: is aircraft worth it?

In a campaign, you have to buy artillery (at least for core) before aircrafts.

Re: is aircraft worth it?

Another option if you don't like the prevalence of MANPADS is to use the Mobhack tool that is provided with the game to edit the radio codes. Set the last digit to 1 means that AI will tend to skip the unit during purchase. This isn't a guaranteed cure, as the help file says:

"Rarity" in game terms does NOT necessarily mean "Rare". When the AI picks units for it's formations it starts at the bottom of the list and works up and it tends to favour the first thing it finds.

Try it, might make a difference. Andy and Don have been very good to us fussy gamers with lots of ways to adjust gameplay to suit personal tastes :up:. How many other games can you think of that are so flexible? Not many I'll bet.

Personally I'd like to see aircraft allowed in the core but I respect the decision not to do this and it doesn't stop me playing (to obsession :) ). There is enough scope to modify the game to suit almost every preference, so try out a few different options.

If the radio code thing doesn't work there is always the option to make some very radical changes, like giving each MANPAD unit only 1 missile, or chopping the units completely. That would make a very big difference and in my view is a step too close to cheating, but it can be done.

Health warning - any changes you make are entirely at your own risk, and don't use a modified OOB in PBEM. Scenarios and campaigns could be seriously wrecked as well.

I'm just pointing out that these options are possible - the choice is yours. It's a game and we can all enjoy it in the way that we like best, there isn't really a right or wrong here.

cheers,

Tim

Re: is aircraft worth it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Tim_ (Post 685980)

If the radio code thing doesn't work there is always the option to make some very radical changes, like giving each MANPAD unit only 1 missile, or chopping the units completely. That would make a very big difference and in my view is a step too close to cheating, but it can be done.

Or expand the MANPADS team to MANPADS section (atleast in the WarPac it was 6 men with 3 launchers or so), so in the end you have one unit (albeit with more missiles) instead of 3 and thus less MANPADS, though harder to kill. Fair's fair ;)

Re: is aircraft worth it?

Just my view but I think the AIs air defence is fine for the following reasons.
People tend to play more with helos than fixed wing.
Also tend to think air assets are far more common than they are so AI buys more AA than it should to compensate for this fact.
Yes some formations might work in conjunction with helos but not always & many dont.
Fixed wing use in my view is used pretty rarely in the game role really only to plug holes in arty cover.
Might lead an assault as additional punch to arty.
How many planes do you think would support 3 Companys, probably 2 if lucky called in for a specific task then might linger or clear off.
If they are used in large numbers then intel would probably expect them so AAA would be beefed up in the area this is represented by the extra MANPADS etc but should probably be represented by offmap area SAMs. The player would probably get upset though that only 3 of his 10 planes made it to the map because area SAMs got them so the extra MANPADS is a middle road.

If planes helos are not used till the middle portion of the game there survivability goes up as you can detect & neutralise the remaining AAA assets. Both are then far more effective as do not have to find own targets & if they fail to destroy the target have at least upset something in the area making the area ripe for ground forces to attack.
Because all air is fast it does not mean it should lead what it means is it can reach places fast so its a reaction force. Tanks spotted over there send your planes or move helos to boost the opposing force till slower help arrives. Preferably from an angle that gaves ground forces a flank shot if they need it.
And yes the best SEAD you can buy helps a lot