Re: Squirrel Balance Mod
 

First Version release - see OP for details

Re: Squirrel Balance Mod (Current Ver: v0.01)
 

It seems like there are five separate changes to EA Agartha when one or two might be sufficient to bring it to middle-of-the-road as far as balance goes. I think most people would be content with things if they just had the lower enc and heat preference 1(though a bit higher stats on the Ancient Lord is a nice touch which I like)

One major thing to note is that the rebalance violates the mage costing guidelines pretty badly--in general mages cost 40 gold for each magic path they have(including priest levels). It's somewhat troubling that you're comparing Agartha's mages to Bakemono Sorcerers, arguably the most undercosted mages in the game. Try looking at...any other mage. Maybe King of the Deeps. After all, they're about the same size and get Amphibious plus Darkvision. All things told, Oracles are pretty cheap for what you get. It's really the high encumbrance that makes people not build them as thugs, I think.

Tartarian Monstrums are way too good in this incarnation--they don't have any afflictions and still get tasty magic. It's essentially quartered their 'real' cost to not require the Chalice or GoH--at this point they're the most cost-effective caster summons in the game...and that doesn't seem right, especially on a flying 232 hp chassis. It seems like a step back from making Death the end-all lategame option. As an aside, Monstrum are great anti-SCs if you script them to fun things like Fists of Iron or Hand of Death or all those other spells which are normally suicide for things with fewer than 200 hp to cast.

Re: Squirrel Balance Mod (Current Ver: v0.01)
 

Monstrums are a really bad caster chassis. That said, the afflictions are a feature of tart gate and not governed by '#aff (%)' attribute of the creature? Interesting. Did you actually test that? They're still less efficient *as a caster chassis* than Lamia Queens. And the magic is totally random. But they might require some tweaking - i was thinking of them as a troop summon and not a target for GoR, so maybe i'll just clearmagic them. That should solve any balance problem. They do still have shattered soul, fwiw, that's a feature of teh creature.

At 40 gold for every magical path they have, the *new* Oracle is only slightly undercosted (2x + 3e + 2.1r + 3H = 10.1x4 = 404, so we're a whole 54 gold shy of your ideal). He's also capital only, which should carry with it a cost reduction. And he's also literally the only thing Agartha has going for them. He should be better than a Bakemono Sorceror by any logic (Both because the Bakemono Sorceror is recruit anywhere, and because Shinuyama has other things going for them). But if people think they should be 400g, I'll also make them recruit anywhere.

We can compare to other mages too.
*Marveni Druids are probably about as useful as Agarthan Oracles despite having fewer total paths (now). (Similarly, Ermor's Augur Elders, when you consider they're 100g cheaper, pull about the same weight as the Oracle in terms of battlefield/lab/remote usefulness, and they're also recruit anywhere). Total paths is not always the best metric of 'usefulness'.
*Lanka has the sacred 270g raksharaja with 8.1 total paths, a base encumbrance of *2*, and actually good stats - making him a good thug and slightly more efficient in gp/path. (And Lanka actually has good units too, and can afford to use its pretender for a big blessing). Other thug units aren't nearly so efficient, but again, actually good stats are a significant difference, and they often have other really useful attributes like *not being cold-blooded* or *Awe*.
*TC has the 250g Celestial Master with 9.1 total paths. The Oracle just gets blown out of the water on efficiency when it comes to other mages that are both capital only and are primarily used for non-thuggery.

I mean, yes, a lot of thuggable mages are less efficient magically. But the ones that actually do get thugged also have good to great stats. Oracles will never be good thugs because their stats are bad. The proper comparisons are casters, not thugs. And in fact, its hard to find a capital-only non-thug/SC mage in EA near the same price range as the Oracle whose stats are anywhere near as bad. Closest is Mictlan's High Priest of the Sun clocks in at only 8 total paths for 300g, which is still below 40 per (its 37.5 per), and well, its *Mictlan*, they have quite possibly the best sacred troop in the game and those sacreds are *recruit anywhere*. If they get to clock in under 40/path for a capital-only mage, then the nation with the absolute worst troop line-up in any age (with the possible exception of MA Ulm) should get even more 'consideration'. (And fwiw, Mictlan's other cap-only mages clock in at ~29g/path and ~26g/path, ie, really cheap).

The stat bumps just make Agartha's infantry not totally suck against indies. They're still useless against *players*, and they still have no shields. Even *Marveni* has better troops than Agartha *after* the improvements. And that's saying something.

Honestly, I'm not convinced I went far enough in boosting Agartha. They still have no good answers to many early bless rushes (Lanka and Mictlan will absolutely destroy them), and they still depend on their pretender for far too many things.

Basically, inter-nation balance has to be considered holistically as well as on straight-up unit comparisons. But even in the straight mage-mage comparisons, the currently statted and costed Oracle looks pretty reasonable when you're comparing it against the stuff it should be compared against.

Re: Squirrel Balance Mod (Current Ver: v0.01)
 

But...why are you trying to argue that Oracles should be costed as non-thugs when your own Agartha strategy guide is more or less centered around using Oracles as thugs? And they're way way way better thugs with 2 more free magic paths, higher attack and defense, and lower encumbrance.

And it's not like you're jonesing for thugs in the first place, anyways. The Gift of Reason change makes Umbral thugs cost what, 8 gems?

All that being said, there's a certain charm to at least giving the Ancient Ones slightly higher attack/def--there's no reason why an Ancient One is not more skilled at arms than a Cavern Guard. If Ancient Ones were 10 att 10 def, Seal Guards were 11 att 11 def, and then Ancient Lords were 12 att 12 def, it would make a lot of sense but still not take away from their flavor.

I'd also argue that if you're gonna lower the encumbrance of the big guys, that it should go down to 2 like all the other 'giant' races.

Finally, I'd like to point out that the Golem is a standard thug chassis and has even worse att/def stats.

Re: Squirrel Balance Mod (Current Ver: v0.01)
 

If I get it right, instead of 1 oracle in 2 having E4, there's less than one in 40? So bye bye Earth attack spammers.

Re: Squirrel Balance Mod (Current Ver: v0.01)
 

Nah, you still get your 1 in 2 E4 guys. 1 in 80 as opposed to 1 in 40 for E5, but honestly...noone was counting on that anyways.

Re: Squirrel Balance Mod (Current Ver: v0.01)
 

Here's the thing about that guide - it worked fine against indies and against the AI. It fails horribly against players. Tried it. Tried some other things too. The other things worked marginally better. I seem to also remember having advocated Ancient Ones... yeah, that was a mistake.

Even if you want to compare to other thugs, lets compare to LA Mictlan's cap-only Atlantian thug. Same cost, vastly better stats, not too dissimilar on total paths (9.1 iirc), and of course belongs to Mictlan, so you're going to have a big bless to go with him. And have a good troop line-up, and so on.

And lets not forget Agarthan Oracles have cold-blooded. #1 reason to never use them as thugs against a player. Alt 4 and a handful of w gems => dead Oracle (once he fatigues out trivially).

Golems work because of (1) astral storm for offense, (2) Enc. 0, and (3) returning for escaping from retribution. Without them they're just poor and extremely vulnerable thugs. Astral makes everything better.

And honestly, I never found it worthwhile to GoR an umbral when GoR was 15n. Umbrals make pretty good troops, but the n was better saved for tarts (who probably weren't too many turns behind the umbrals), and 18 gems for a thug + gear... you might as well use banelords.

Is 8 gems too few? Maybe. Of course, you're still talking about using pretender time for it, since Agartha has no nature mages.

Re: Squirrel Balance Mod (Current Ver: v0.01)
 

Ok, its becoming increasing clear that the union of 'sucks at magic' and 'sucks at resisting magic' is just a bad idea for nation balance. Would people feel it terribly unthematic if I made the Ulms 'sucks at magic' and 'amazingly resistant to magic'? Because there's only so much I can do to save the fail that is Ulm otherwise.

Re: Squirrel Balance Mod (Current Ver: v0.01)
 

I would like to propose a radical new idea. Instead of changing ulm to "incredibly good at resisting magic" why not make them have incredibly awful recruitable troops instead? With this trifecta of awesome achieved, none will be able to stand in the face of ulm's armies (they'll be too busy laughing).

I'm not sure you have to make them incredibly good at resisting magic though. Maybe slightly above average... it would be a good start anyway. You can consider other changes after this, but I think amazingly resistant isn't quite necessary.

Re: Squirrel Balance Mod (Current Ver: v0.02)
 

v0.02 is released, focusing on MA Ulm.