Re: EA Agartha - The Not Exactly a Guide [CBM]
 

Jarrko, iirc, started the most recent popularity with Dom kill. In the time since then, Dom Kill underwent a huge increase in popularity.

I'm certainly aware of the changes to jade knives and blood rods and this has made it less popular. Still more popular than before jarrko's posts.

So much so that most guides now recommend Dom 5/6 to avoid the possibility of dom/kill - which previously was usually held to be more of a concern for water nations.

Re: EA Agartha - The Not Exactly a Guide [CBM]
 

Calahan leaves because of people like Bat/man and Bat/man decides to kick him when down? And I am being rough? Surely you jest.

All the guides I have read advice at least dom5/6 and that is even cutting it close. So it isn't that new. It is a game tactic. Has always been there, and isn't going away.

Re: EA Agartha - The Not Exactly a Guide [CBM]
 

Returning to Agartha for a moment.
I think the national which causes damage reinforces the benefit of a nature bless.

I also think this is a much bigger change for agartha than the changes to the life scale.

Re: EA Agartha - The Not Exactly a Guide [CBM]
 

I fail to see how you turn the water mages into a bigger advantage on maps with a lot of water. Care to explain?

Re: EA Agartha - The Not Exactly a Guide [CBM]
 

Water Oracles:

Generally oracles are expensive. But if you need to hit a research target by a certain turn, the research boost can be situationally useful.

If you start near water, and have no nearby water powers, being fully amphibious allows agartha access to uncontested indies.

If you plan to go the water route, the water path on these oracles is more useful than it would be on land. Likewise water forging.

Finally, I'm going from memory. But my memory says that water oracles have one higher defense than death (due to magic path). And again, from memory, are at least occassionally not old age.

Re: EA Agartha - The Not Exactly a Guide [CBM]
 

Yeah, but all the oracles can enter the water, and you really don't want the oracles at the front line. (So the higher defense doesn't do squat, and there are no fliers or missile troops underwater, so that doesn't help that much either).

Against indies you lack the research to do something with your water mages. Against other underwater nations Agartha is going to have a very hard time regardless.

Water forging? Forging is the same above and under water.

Death and Water don't really increase or decrease age on oracles. ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showp...95&postcount=5 ). Only fire.

So I don't think it is that good advice to go all out on water oracles.

And even with old age, the fire or death mages have more combat potential later. (skelly spam and magma eruption for example).

Sure you want some of the water oracles. (They provide wards, rust mist, wendigo's, site searching etc). But going all out on them is imho a mistake. Might be a little bit easier to take the water provinces, but you lose late game potential.

You need one with w2, to get the second booster, and some site searching. But I don't think you need more than that.

And you are correct that water provides defense. But on a size 4 unit defense isn't that useful as they will be swarmed (each additional attack vs a unit gets +2 attack.

However, somehow the water oracle has minor better stats (more attack and def. Why I don't know. But 8 vs 11 def is laughable at best). So water ones have the best stats, and fire ones the worst.

On personal buff skills, early game personal quickness (watch the fatigue) might be better, but late game I would go for phoenix pyre. Or perhaps a nice shield with a brand. But that is a bit dangerous without further equipment.

Also, using CBM, remember that the olm spawn can be GoR'ed for a E1H2 mage with ?2.1 FWED unlinked randoms. Nature gems might be hard to find, but this provides a cheaper (although a bit random) access to the fire/death booster and the rune breakers, than just putting the paths on your pretender. Also, this creates more mages (upkeep free), and saves pretender turns. Sadly, you do need the Olm pretender, which might not be the best one (low dominion, high path cost, only water/earth). GoR'in some of the early expansion dudes for this. (Perhaps put a few of them on guard commander) will give you some bonus exp, and a nice HoF mage. Minor trick, but not that well known.

In conclusion about the underwater part. If there is an other underwater nation, he will own most of the underwater stuff. (you might sneaky get few early game underwater lands, and I advise you to do so, but a full blow underwater war will be mostly his). Without the underwater nation, grab all you can get. (Unless your game admin has put in a dead seas map. Just send angry pm's at the admin). You can build underwater PD. Dunno if it is any good. (probably not), and you do not get any worthwhile underwater recruits (only an armoured wet one variant prot 7 armour).

Re: EA Agartha - The Not Exactly a Guide [CBM]
 

Forging: Your oracles can forge water bracelets, wave breakers.
Casting: The water path is more useful, underwater than above (generally)

Already said agartha is not going to compete with a real water nation. (But then its not going to compete with a real land nation, either).

But, situationally useful if you start adjacent to water.

Re: EA Agartha - The Not Exactly a Guide [CBM]
 

So heres one of four promised builds. I'll post up the others later.

So a few ground rules.

Default settings in all cases.
I did not hire any mercs, or indie troops. Pure agarthan. Which also required a bit more troop shuttling.
Forts must have a temple, lab, and PD21

Ive run the following builds at least 4 times each, through the end of the first year.

Map was aran.


Awake Druid:
E9 N4 Dom 5. O3, P2, H3, G-3, L-2, M+1.

First Turn: Prophetize commander. Build 5 unarmored boulder throwers, earth reader, and as many net throwers as you can. This will be the only turn you build the unarmored.

Pretender researches. Personally I beeline for alteration-2 earth meld. Con-1 (legions of steel) is also valid.

See research below.

Turn 2: Recruit earth reader, 5 armored boulder throwers, as many nets as you can.

Dispatch first group. Leave net throwers on Cap. Put your med Pale up front with orders to attack. Boulder throwers two squares back with orders to fire.

Prophet divine bless, smite spam. Put the lights to one (or both sides). The are there to soak up 2nd round attacks, and prevent you from getting flanked.

This group is slightly fragile, due to the lack of armor, but do *not* choose the weakest neighbor. Expect casualties due to your own boulder throwing. Don't worry. They get better.

Turn 3.

Once you get the feel, you'll know whether to dispatch the second group this turn - other wise, just wait a turn.

5 boulder throwers and 10 net throwers is pretty reasonable.

Recruit another earth reader, 5 boulder throwers & nets. Repeat this, dispatch 2 turns of production as an expansion party.
Send out e2 earth readers if you have the chance, so when earth meld comes on line you can use it.

Position earthreaders in the boulder throwers with orders to bless, bless. When you get earthmeld you'll use that (and you may wish to recruit an oracle to ensure the e2 path requirement).
Very useful for tough groups.

An oracle, with 10 boulder throwers and 10 nets can handle up to about 60 barbarians. Reason: the boulders don't usually damage berserkers, so they don't go berserk, boosting the unit morale. Instead, they kill them, and cause an early route.

Start gingerly till you have the feel.


Research:
Option A: Beeline to Alt 4 for Destruction and blight. Blight is useful against cap only nations - such as nieffle. Earth Meld is go to, and is great spam.

Option B: Construction 1 for legions (+2 prot). Construction 3 for clock work horrors which are PERFECTLY sized for use with your boulder throwers.

Option C: Alt 2, then Con 4. Con 4 useful for the earth communion for gems and you're on your way to Umbrals.

Results:

As described my minimum expansion was 17 territories.
Max was 25.

Income ranged from 1308 --> 1721.
Maintenance ranged from 108 to 132.

Total maximum casualties (boulder throwers). 3.
Each case I built at least one complete fort, and had another started.
Research was 350 ish. Ie., 3/ 3 ish.

Handled carefully, there are no standard indies that these guys can't take out. Cav, barbs, undead.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Upsides/Downsides.

You are relying on your earth readers to prevent plague events. And, following this regimen, I don't believe I got a capitol bad event after turn 8 or so.

Do not lessen order, or increase misfortune.

You have F,E,W,D,N access. You are missing S. Lizard shamans are important to prevent mind hunt spam etc.

I'll leave it for others to fill in the blanks. Please feel free to try this out.


Edit: check on water oracles:
Soy disputed that Water Oracles are not as likely to get aged. I stand by my statement. Water oracles start at 385 (400). Fire mages 385 (395). For whatever reason, my fire oracles routinely started aged. Water did not.

Re: EA Agartha - The Not Exactly a Guide [CBM]
 

so are you just ignoring troglodytes completely because you're dumb or what

Re: EA Agartha - The Not Exactly a Guide [CBM]
 

Ooh a sound refutation! I yield I yield!

Actually, as I have said repeatedly, trogs are good units in the right circumstances.

However:

a. Have a higher upfront cost.
b. Take much greater losses through attrition.
c. Have a maintenance of 3.33 vs a 1.16 for the boulder throwers.
d. Suffer from an abysmal MR of 8.
e. Have trouble with lots of different kinds of indies. Longbowman. Size 4+. Blowpipe woodsmen. Barbarians.

Look, do as you like. But 15 territories is usually considered the benchmark for MP play - and this build will reliably get you well north of that.