Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes. If having a mod is keeping you from joining we will not have a mod and go with the GA. If missed turns become a problem we will deal with it as it comes up.

Geoschmo

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

well, if it is modded then I wouldnt have to remember http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif of course I will go with the majority

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Along those lines players may want to remain flexible during the game and be prepared to adopt new Gentlman Agreements.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

I'm in (FWIW).

I'll hold off on empire design (and upload) until I get something more firm on Intel.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

I actually would rather it were modded so that the agreement cannot be modified. I want every opportunity to exploit weaknesses and advantages in this system of limitation that have not yet been discussed or discovered. I want everyone to have that opportunity because I think it will make things more interesting, more active, more chaotic.

I'm in if the mod is enforced.

I vote no limits on Fighters, Satellites, or Mines. No Intel would allow us to focus more on the interesting limitations of ship building involved here, so I'll vote no Intel, but it's not a determining factor.

[edit: I'm in anyway, but I would like to see the changes made in the files.]

[ July 29, 2003, 19:52: Message edited by: Loser ]

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Its possible to enforce some limits without a mod, I think.

Move, say, Escorts, Colony Ships, Frigates and small transports to Propulsion. Edit the files so Ship Construction is bannable. Start the game, ban ship construction. You -should- start with all those ships available. Now change the files back. If I'm right- I'll test this later- they'll all stay.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

P-D, changing tech reqs requires using a mod. If you do not use the mod to play the game, the ships will move back to Ship Construction.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Hmm. Well, if that workaround doesn't work..

Well, the other idea doesn't work either. Though it might be interesting for another game. If you edit the max tech level down, then start a max tech game, then change everything back, the result is a max tech game..except you still have whatever tech you modded down available for research.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

It would still be best to just use a mod... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, this does sound interesting. Also you could modify the tech area.txt to change the "raise level" entries and then start a medium tech game. The result would be a medium tech game, but with selected techs advanced farther then normal.

As to whether we do this as a mod game or not. I really don't care, but I don't want to limit the field. I understand some people haven't quite got the hang of using the mod picker utility. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

If we went with a mod though it would be an extremly simple one. I would only need to modify one file, the techarea.txt file.

Geoschmo

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, what he said. Intel?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What am I missing here? The Fighter Bay has the "cargo" ability which means it counts towards the cargo limit. I think Transports make much better carriers than Frigates. They can carry more launch bays and more cargo bays. Maybe they won't dominate that much but I think they might shift the focus to making carrier fleets out of transports. This is kinda off from the original idea. Thoughts?

Slick.

[ July 30, 2003, 02:48: Message edited by: Slick ]

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

I vote for the mod - mainly so I dont have to remember not to research a particular item http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

On intel - dont mind.

On racial traits - anything goes? What about the much talked about Talisman and AS. Will they have an even worse impact on the game with only little ships? I dont have the XP to comment. But if you are doing a small mod we could also agree to ditch certain other items.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think that the fact that you are limited to frigates will make fighters a little more viable. I don't think having acces to transports is going to have any measurable impact whatsoever. Did you check out my later post where I ran the tests? Two frigates with one PDC each easily handled a transport full of small fighters. Almost no damage to the frigates at all.

I think anyone that tries to dominate this game by using transport carriers is making a big mistake. Fighters just are too weak to be used as a main offensive component. They are support.

That being said if you don't want them in we can ban them too. I think you are gonna wish you had them for other things, moving pop around, minelaying, sat laying, transport type stuff. But I have no problem disallowing them. You want to put it to a vote or shall I just make a ruling?

Geoschmo

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually Talisman is too big to be a factor in this game. It will fit on a frigate, but take up a lot of room that could go for shields or weapons. A fleet full of frigates with talisman are going to be damn expensive compared to the cheap cannon fodder your opponents will be throwing at you. I think this would be a huge mistake, but I'd love to see someone try to pull it off. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

AS is smaller, so it woudl have some use. But you are gonna see some huge fleet battles in this game. You might get a few with AS, but there will be a lot more facing you, and the ones you capture wont be all that strong. I think on balance there will be no difference in using AS in this game and in a normal game. I see no reason why it would be mroe powerful then normal.

Geoschmo

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Talisman is 50 kT. It is 25% of a Frigate (200 kT). So, with bridge, LS, CQ, Talisman, that is 120 kT left over. Add some engines, 60 kT (unless you don't mind being slow). I think that the small ship sizes will effectively neuter the Talisman.

AS should not be that big a deal because there are no mounts guaranteeing 100% success, and there would be so many ships that you cant subvert them all.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually Talisman is too big to be a factor in this game. It will fit on a frigate, but take up a lot of room that could go for shields or weapons. A fleet full of frigates with talisman are going to be damn expensive compared to the cheap cannon fodder your opponents will be throwing at you. I think this would be a huge mistake, but I'd love to see someone try to pull it off. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Geoschmo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No issue of Sat stacks with it or WP stacks?

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Hmm, as I recall geo was giving away places in his games only a couple of weeks ago, and now he's starting a new one? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Anyway, I'll like to join this one too please. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I guess that would still be an issue. But I have always felt that was a minor issue anyway as it's purely defensive. Limiting it to small WP's means the range advantage isn't going to be that tremendous for the defenders. Where the WP with talisman becomes truely evil is with the large WP mounts that can reach out and touch you just about anywhere on the map. That won't be a problem here.

Geoschmo

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I never said I was going to play in this game did I? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Being game owner gives mee a fix without taking too much time.

But I will admit it's been a struggle not click the little apply to join button myself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Geoschmo

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

I'll go with majority as well.
We got a nice bunch of players in this game. Should be rather interesting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

geo i figured that out as well.

like running games....

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

We got nine players already. You guys want to stop at ten or keep going?

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

I would prefer a mod, but I won't be too peeved if we don't get one. I just know I'm going to be doing a bunch of turns, and I'll look at this one and say, "Hey! Why haven't I researched LCs yet?" and start going gung-ho on them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Don't think anyone has mentioned this before, but small transports = less troops dropped on planets. Maybe reduce the number of turns per ground combat to compensate?

I'll prefer it if this were a mod too.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

i vote no for intel

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

p.s. i asked gandalph if he wants to play in this game... Seems to be right up his alley

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, you may not even get small transports. Try doing it with frigates. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It may turn out being simply impossible to conquer heavily populated worlds and they will have to be glassed.

Reducing the combat runs would allow reinforcments to arrive before the combat ended though wouldn't it? Interesting idea.

Dang I really wish SE4 would let more then one ship drop troops per turn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Geoschmo

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not religious about this but the thing I have about turning intel off is that it creates yet another trait to minimize to get racial points off of.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Ok, since this is a partial research project and partial fun game I think we should just draw the line in the sand over a few things and let the cards fall where they may. Here's the plan:

- Purpose: to have fun and to explore the idea of the original post in this thread for a possible mod.
- No mod for this game. Players agree to remain flexible and report any improvements to the setup or suggestions to this thread. If it becomes necessary to institute another gentleman's agreement during mid-game due to some unforeseen issue, we will as appropiate - this is would be to extend the viability of the game both for more data gathering as well as more fun. Please don't be too wrapped up in winning the game. If successful, this effort will lead to a polished mod which can be used for more serious games.
- Players will play in the spirit of the idea of this game as discussed in this thread to the maximum extent in an effort to flesh out any improvements while still having some fun.
- Players commit to finishing the game and getting turns in on time.
- Intel ok
- Existing settings as per the intro file description at PBW
- Any satellites ok
- Any fighters ok
- Transport Carriers ok.
- If planet capture is too hard, it may be a result of the original idea which is that planets are expected to be very tough. Consider an alternate approach like attacking the economy, or blockading, etc. However, after playing, if deemed too difficult, it can be addressed.
- any/all racial traits, max/minimizing characteristics, etc for empire setup is ok.
- edit: And one more thing, since Geoschmo suckered me into this game even though I said I was overloaded, Geoschmo also playes this game ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )

Anything I missed? I say give it 1 more day for people waiting on the game definition to firm up then we start.

Last call for $0.02 on the setup. Speak now or hold your peace.

Slick.

[ July 30, 2003, 07:44: Message edited by: Slick ]

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not religious about this but the thing I have about turning intel off is that it creates yet another trait to minimize to get racial points off of.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If the game is going to use a mod, the Cunning trait can be modified to have a minimum of 100. No free points, no fuss, no muss.

Slick, if the game is for researching how to make this idea viable, it would make more sense to create the mod now, to iron it out.

I should point out that attacking a planet IS how you attack the economy. You have two choices: glass or capture. There is a third, reduce the planet, but that is very hard to accomplish in Strategic combat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ July 30, 2003, 08:24: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Fyron, your opinion is noted, and as always appreciated. You've given us some good things to think about, but from this point on I think the goal is to reach some agreement among the players actually in the game. So unless you are gonna join... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

[ July 30, 2003, 20:30: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

I don't have a big problem with using a mod. If we can still meet the intent of the game and address these issues, the someone can make it.

- First, I won't be making the mod for this first run of the game. I haven't really put anything even this simple together yet and I would just delay the start of the game in the unlikely event that I found time to make it. I have no problem if someone else wants to make it.

- Second, the mod should absolutely minimize changes to the game and only change the ship restrictions (and WP's, etc) mentioned in this thread and the game setup info at PBW. This is because we should minimize the variables so that we won't have to have many games to iron out tweaks.

- Last, and most important, players agree to remain flexible for gameplay issues. If some unforeseen issue comes up, we may yet have to address it with a gentleman's agreement. Should this happen, I don't want to have to restart the game with a new mod. It is the feedback from this game that would lead to all the other tweaks that people are mentioning like satellites, planet capture, etc.

That's my opinion on the matter of a mod. All 3 of these would be easier with no mod, but I'll play with one if these issues won't be a problem.

Slick.

[ July 30, 2003, 16:31: Message edited by: Slick ]

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Ok, game has twelve players. I think that is enough. Once we settle the final issues about the game settings people can get their empires in and away we go. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

If we want a mod, I can make a mod. That's no problem. With the changes already mentioned in the thread the only file that will need altered is the techarea.txt file. Maybe the settings.txt file if we want to change the number of combat turns to make capturing the big planets with multiple transports an option.

Changes to the mod in game would not require a restart unless we do something silly like rearanging the order of the components file. We could even add components as long as they are added at the end and the game won't have to be restarted.

The only stumbling block I see to using a mod is if we lose some players because of it. What about it Slynky? You want to give it a try with a mod? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I'd hate to have you leave the game over it.

Geoschmo

[ July 30, 2003, 20:49: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

i am ok with out a mod.... and with one.

But if the choice is mod or slinky.... i choose slinky...

on the condition that slinky learns how to use mods before the game is over

I can remember that ships can only be reserched once

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Just a clarification. If this game shows hope, I will be fumbling my way through finalizing a mod for it. It may be that Geo's original requires no changes, which would be great. But I am expecting some tweaking issues to come up during the game.

BTW, I'll submit my empire when I get home from work today in about 12 hrs.

Slick.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

The mod should be simple, only changes need to be made would be to the Tech file: cap Ships, WPs, and Bases, yes?

If someone will PM me I will give you my e-mail address and you can send me the text file, then I'll send that to Geo.

[Edit: Geo already volunteered... answered the phone (work) halfway through making the post and posted it anyway]

[ July 30, 2003, 16:53: Message edited by: Loser ]

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, being just a simple Georgia boy, I like to keep things simple. I played with a mod or two before but somehow, I started getting those %#*! errors during gameturn execution (that you have to click 'OK' to over and over). So, I wiped all the crap out and started from scratch. Haven't had a single error yet. So, you can see my reluctance.

Secondly, Making batch files to run the game with, or editing the path file. Annoying to me. I like being able to click on my 1.84 icon and then choosing the game I want to work on. Simple. Error-free.

Personally, I can't see all the fuss about a gentleman's agreement. Can't be that complicated. After all, if you can remember all the details of the game, surely remembering a few ship limitations and such can't be overwhelming.

But...

Since there seems to be so many people who want a mod for this "test" game, I will resign to going along with it. Somebody will just have to expend some extra energy and tell me the easiest way to go about running a modded game and (switching back to) my regular games.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mod-picker, definetly mod-picker. I'll find a link...

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1059590690.gif
AH-HA-HAH-HA-AH-A-A-A
*falls off chair, coworkers stare, again*
First time using that sig?
A bit rough on the boy, but damn funny.

[ July 30, 2003, 19:56: Message edited by: Loser ]

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can always change the mod and keep playing, you know.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I had a little trouble getting the image to display right, but I got it now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What are you trying to say? Do you think we should use a mod?

The point is noted. Thanks for the input.

Slick.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Those were different responses to different things you said...

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

/offtopic

what is w.w.f.d.

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">W.W.F.D. is a state of mind. It is attitude. A way of life in which one seeks after harmony, peace, and true understanding.

[ July 31, 2003, 12:50: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

sounds good slick

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

We do have four or five votes for the mod, and I think the game has enough people to survive if the mod drives anyone away. Can we put this to a vote or is there even a possibility you'd relent on that issue, Slick?

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

Ok, official ruling is Intel is allowed, and we will be using a mod. So now everyone can do their empire files.

Geoschmo

Re: Attack of the Ankle-Biters - Replacment player needed.
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Is there anything to download and install?