Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

A good side point. USA(sic) musicians can also sign up to get their pile of pennies a month for broadcasts tracked by the organization (I think it does so worldwide), but I didn't want to drag that detail into the "IP violations = theft" discussion, which is already pretty far afield.

I didn't think Fryon could possibly be right about it being illegal to record radio... or TV, or whatever. No doubt the media cartel would love to make it so, though.

There was someone writing about it being supposedly illegal in some of the states in the USA to record TV and then skip the ads by fast-forwarding over them, but I think maybe I was mistaken that it was earlier in this thread.

However, it is just another step along the line Fryon has been towing of copying anything as theft - see the article HERE titled "SKIPPING COMMERCIALS IS STEALING ACCORDING TO TURNER CEO"!

I tend to think we're headed more toward Orwell's 1984.

PvK

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

No... it is illegal to record off of the radio in the US. TV recording is ok for home use only. But radio is not...


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Umm... copying things is quite legal, as long as you keep the copies to yourself. I never said that copying musics, movies, etc. was illegal. As long as you have a legal license to own the material, you can make as many copies for personal use as you want. I said that acquiring copies made by someone else for something that you have no legal license to use is theft.

[ December 03, 2003, 03:49: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe because jumping of a cliff would hurt a lot?

Um yeah, it is OK because everyone does it because there is strength in numbers. As long as there are millions of us we're safe because they can't get all of us, and wont try for very long.

Copying songs does NOT equal theft by law, it is copyright infringement.

Copyright Infringement DOES NOT EQUAL theft

It is a different crime. This is the legal definition. I don't care what YOU think it is. The legal definition is the only one that counts.

I have a Tivo and skip ads all the time, is this illegal too because the shows are not being compensated because I'm not watching their ad garbage? The way you look at it, anything could be considered stealing if you put the right spin on it.

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

A lot of people committing morally wrong actions does not make it any less of a wrong thing to do...

Once again, you are conjuring up this whole legal angle to avoid agreeing to the fact that "copyright infringement" is stealing... You are the only person that was ever talking about technical legal issues. Of course they are different crimes. Noone ever said they were not.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is quite wrong.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I never said it was illegal... that was PvK. There is nothing wrong with presenting the other side of an issue in a debate. In fact, it is often a very good idea. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The way I look at it, only actions that are stealing can be considered stealing.

[ December 03, 2003, 05:52: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Means: only actions that *you* consider stealing are stealing? Fyron, there *are* other opinions than yours, and they are at least equally right or wrong http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Well I'm not the first to think of the words "self-centered" and "stubborn" I guess http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ December 03, 2003, 06:03: Message edited by: Roanon ]

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Means: only actions that *you* consider stealing are stealing? Fyron, there *are* other opinions than yours, and they are at least equally right or wrong http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Well I'm not the first to think of the words "self-centered" and "stubborn" I guess http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Umm... that had absolutely nothing to do with "my opinion". It was a simple statement of the fact that only an action that is stealing is stealing... I fail to see what it could possibly have to do with opinion. Of course, what is stealing could in some convuluted way have to do with opinion, but what I said had no opinion in it at all.

Of course, if people would actually look at the definition of "steal" that I posted, they would see that a lot of these actions do indeed qualify as stealing... nothing to do with any opinion, but with cold hard fact of the language. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif "steal" is a much broader term than some people think it is.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So if the majority of people start killing their neighbor, does killing your neighbor stop being morally wrong? If a majority start killing off their firstborn child, does that make killing off your firstborn no longer morally wrong? (not talking about abortion here, talking about wacking the little tike some time after birth)

[ December 03, 2003, 14:32: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

Mongolian society from the 300's to the 1500's believed in plundering there fallen foe's Taking what they conquered as theirs.

In that society that was what was right.

If we lived in a society where we had to give up our first born to sacifice then that would be right. Those who hid their first born would be wrong. As per that societies laws and customs.

To answer your question. If the majority of people stated to kill their neighbours in your society right now. It would be wrong according to the laws and customs of your society. But if the trend continued within your country I am sure that some of the laws and customs would change to reflect this change in society. So then it would not be morally wrong according to that society. Remeber 50 years ago in your country it was morally wrong for a black person to sit in the front of a bus. It was morally wrong for an Irish person to apply to many jobs in the Toronto area.
But luckly society changed and the laws changed to reflect these changes in society. Which drives the morals of a society. It is based on the laws and customs of that society at that time.

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

That's true Tesco. Although I hope to never live in a soceity where such things are acceptable.

This whole issue is one of semantics. Copyright infringment or theft. It may not fit a strict legal definition of theft, but it's still taking what's not yours, and it's still wrong as far as our laws and soceity have determined to this point. Will that change in the future if people continue to ignore it? Perhaps. But that doesn't change the fact that it's illegal now.

There were many brave souls in the 60's that fought against the discriminatory laws and practices of the day. Rosa Parks decided it wasn't right that she had to sit in the back of the bus, so she did something about it. We can applaud her courage now, but she paid a price for her disobedience then. As many others did, and some worse then her.

I guess the question is do you honestly feel that you have a right to copy and share music, software and other IP type stuff? Enough so that you feel it worth taking a stand and suffering the consequences? Do you feel that by taking a stand and freely "sharing" software and music someday you will be considered as a freedom fighter and be admired for your courage? If you do, then do what you feel is right. But be prepared to face the consequences so that future generations can share freely.

Or do you maybe just want to get the stuff without paying for it?

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

Moral relativism only goes so far...

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree with you, but the discussion seems to have come around to a question of what is legal. Legality and morality are two different things. Often they are complimentary, sometimes contradictory, but they are never the same.

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How far? There is no thing as an absolute moral. So there is a lot of relativsm possible...
It all depends on your personal point of view, your history, your culture, etc. Uncritically regarding the point you are currently at as the absolute and objective center of "correct" morals usually leads to intolerance, oppression and worse. History is full of examples where those who thought they had "god" or the "right" or the "moral" on their side committed the most heinous and foul crimes.

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Umm... copying things is quite legal, as long as you keep the copies to yourself. I never said that copying musics, movies, etc. was illegal. As long as you have a legal license to own the material, you can make as many copies for personal use as you want. I said that acquiring copies made by someone else for something that you have no legal license to use is theft. [/quote]

Actually, it is illegal to make a copy of many games now. See, you're allowed to make a copy for personl use, but to do that you need to break the copy protection. And gee, breaking the copy protection is illegal..thanks to the DMCA.

And no, copyright violation is not theft. Not from a legal point of view and I don't think from an ethical point of view. In some cases its not as bad (ex: downloading songs you already own, but aren't in a format you can access) in some cases it is worse (ex: downloading a file then sharing it. Theft occurs once, this can spread exponentially)

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

Let's try this again...

Definition of "steal" from www.m-w.com:
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Look at 1a. It would imply that downloading a song you have no right to own is stealing it. "to take or appropriate without right or leave" directly applies, as you have no right to take that music, as you did not pay for it. "with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully" also applies because you have no right to make use of or to keep the illegal copies of the song. How this does not add up to theft (which is just stealing in a different word) is incomprehensible to me.

[ December 03, 2003, 23:32: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

Again, only the legal definition counts.

I don't care what m-w says.

The law says it is a different crime.

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

Stop trying to force the language into rigidly defined "crimes". It is counter-productive and is the only way you can possibly be correct. "Steal" is a much more general term than as used in the technical details of the criminal code. There is a whole world out there beyond the criminal code.

[ December 03, 2003, 23:46: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

If the majority of people are commiting morally wrong acts. Perhaps it is not morally wrong anymore. Morals are based on what a society sees as what is right. Laws would change to reflect that. THen it would no longer be morally wrong to that society.


For tv adds and skipping look no further than dvd's and for recording content. Look no further than the pile of crap delaying digital tv... and the converters....

Some country in Europe has the law state that you can make a back up for 7 family memebers... Or something like that. Clarification from some one from that country please.

PS I would rather have a 'self-centered" and 'stubborn' fyron than a quiet passive fyron. Shows he passionate about what he thinks. Which in turn makes me think and I can tell it makes others think. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Always remember you have the choice to agree or disagree.

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

I Feel
You can debate the “legality” of this till the internet stops working.
A person can get away with this indefinitely.

Isn’t the real issue here ethics ?

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

Then lets petition to remove the crime of copyright infringement since it's the same as stealing right?

Stealing would refer to taking something and thus depriving the owner of the use of it. Copyright Infringement is the crime of making a copy of something. It doesn’t deprive the owner of use of the original, but it is taking their software/music with out you owning the license.

It's a small difference, but enough to merit a different crime.

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

Again with the crime definitions... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif Both the crimes of theft and copyright infringement involve stealing something. They are different forms of stealing, but they are still stealing. Refer back to my post with the definition of "steal". Stealing a loaf of bread gets you charged with petty theft. Stealing a car gets you charged with grand theft auto. Both crimes are different, yet both involve stealing. Just like stealing ideas is still stealing them.

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

Fyron, I said legal and ethical, not dictionary. Stop posting that, I saw it the first time and it isn't relevent.

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ethically it is stealing. It is taking what you have no right to take, which comes directly from the dictionary definition. Performing such an action is not morally correct.

Legally it is stealing. Copyright infringement is stealing "ideas" and such that are not your own. Again, the dictionary definition makes this clear. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

Fyron you have to rember the spirit of law is written so there is 100% understandment between all parties involved. If we took the M-W 1a) to court we would have a few problems

1) I download something and realise I downloaded something and delete it. I did not break 1a) As there was no intent to keep or make use of wrongfully. There are many different ways of taking this apart in a court of law.

Say the person who created the said item wishes for people to listen to it in what ever format they want and does not care about being paid. But they also to happen to have this release done by Blue Note in 1973 and it is not availble for purchase since it is backcat. I download it and I am still breaking your 1a) and what they want in the laws now.

THis is the beauty of Law and the theory behind it. And why it should lag behind society current thoughts. As it must stand the test of time. And when it needs to be changed. It must be changed exactly in a way that benifits what came before it and what benfits its society that it helps support. Not quite in the spirit of Hart and Holmes. but along those lines...

Geo good point.

But the question would be what are they trying to stand up to and make a point for. If it is just because they wish to listen to some songs here and there or is it because they wish to debate the structure of copyright and the errosion of public content or something else. Public content benifits a society. As societies can on benifit from the free flow of culture and ideas. It helps with the evolution of society and its art.

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

I will stand by my assessment that JayBdey was just trying to divert the actual conversation so he would not have to admit that he is wrong about only the law mattering and the fact that "steal" is a very narrow term according to him.

Legality did not enter the discussion until rather late, after he failed to convince me of his wrong point of view.

Of course laws have to be narrowly defined. I never said they didn't. But, laws are not what was being discussed until the diVersion, and I still take issue with the assessment that only what is legal matters.

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How can you tell him to stop posting when he is the National Stubbornness Advisor? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Stop contradicting him, he will just ignore your opinion and everything else you post, and repeat his point of view over and over and over and over and over and over and over and again till we all are bored to death...

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif My point of view happens to be supported by the facts.

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

Sure, Fyron, you are the bellybutton of the universe, and no opinion or point of view beside yours has any right of existance.

Can anyone *please* close or lock this thread? Or install a conveniently configurable ignore function?

Hmm, all this makes me rethink my own opinion, if it concurs with Fyrons, MUST it be wrong? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ December 04, 2003, 01:16: Message edited by: Roanon ]

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

Ok... whatever. I fail to see why I am being singled out for this harrassment when there are others in this very thread being more stubborn than I am. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif The definition of "steal" is not an opinion. That, and I never said nor implied that other points of view have no right of existence. Not all points of view are correct though.

[ December 04, 2003, 01:19: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fyron..he admited it was wrong in the FIRST POST he brought the "not stealing" idea up in.

EDIT: word-level typo.

[ December 04, 2003, 01:36: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fyron..he admited it was wrong in the FIRST POST he brought the "not stealing" idea up in.

EDIT: word-level typo. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Umm... I did not say that he was unwilling to admit that stealing was wrong.

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Neither is the legal use of the term..which is what I was arguing about. Especially since you can commit copyright infringement without doing anything that could possibly be said to be stealing; borrowing an out of print book from a library and making a photocopy of one page, for example.

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

One objection to this is that "property" should not include "intellectual property", a modern abomination championed by media cartels. Whether an idea, song, or any piece of infomation, even the digital representation of a motion picture or a computer program, can ever be "property", is an open legal and societal question. The mainstream and corporate western convention may have said so recently, but technology is tending to make it impossible, impractical, and extremely counter-productive, to view as property. Once our society finds a better way to reward creators and allows free distribution of published content, we can stop jealously hoarding our music, literature, software, ideas, etc., and take full advantage of them.

I offer the usual quote from Thomas Jefferson on this topic:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">PvK


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Look at 1a. It would imply that downloading a song you have no right to own is stealing it. "to take or appropriate without right or leave" directly applies, as you have no right to take that music, as you did not pay for it. "with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully" also applies because you have no right to make use of or to keep the illegal copies of the song. How this does not add up to theft (which is just stealing in a different word) is incomprehensible to me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[ December 04, 2003, 01:41: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thus, his narrow definition of stealing that is contradicted by the real definitions of stealing...

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Neither is the legal use of the term..which is what I was arguing about. Especially since you can commit copyright infringement without doing anything that could possibly be said to be stealing; borrowing an out of print book from a library and making a photocopy of one page, for example. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Copyright infringement was only being used in reference to stealing music and software by downloading them... which was claimed to not being stealing them.

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The definition of "stealing" isn't so much the question as the definition of "property" is. See my previous post.

PvK

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Like what, PvK? I as of current see no reliable way to ensure creators get paid for their work other than to not allow access unless they ARE paid.

EDIT: oh, and Fryon I misread that. Sorry.

[ December 04, 2003, 01:45: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which would require the copyright owners relinquishing their rights to their creations to the public domain, which makes downloading them for free no longer an issue of theft at all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif It still does not change the fact that music etc. can be copyrighted, thus making acquiring it illegally be stealing it.

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We've had at least one other long thread about my suggestions for other ways, which were accepted by some, and balked at by others who started calling me a communist or a taxmonger or whatever. There are many possible approaches which will be more or less accepted by people with different views. So far in this thread, we're still bogged down trying to stiffle the cries that corporations should be allowed to publish data in copyable form yet we should still enforce any unauthorised act with that data. Maybe we should dig up the old thread on suggestions before dumping them on this thread as well.

PvK

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We seemed to be operating under the assumption that it qualified as property, so then the issue became whether acquiring wrongfully was stealing it or not. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif But since music, etc. is property under current models...

Now, whether they should be "property" or not is an entirely different debate. One that I believe you will see I am inclined to agree with you on (at least partially)...

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We've had at least one other long thread about my suggestions for other ways, which were accepted by some, and balked at by others who started calling me a communist or a taxmonger or whatever. There are many possible approaches which will be more or less accepted by people with different views. So far in this thread, we're still bogged down trying to stiffle the cries that corporations should be allowed to publish data in copyable form yet we should still enforce any unauthorised act with that data. Maybe we should dig up the old thread on suggestions before dumping them on this thread as well.

PvK </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Allowed to publish data in copyable form? There IS no form that will let you access the data and still not copy it!

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yet another interesting way to read Posts... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Corporations are irrelvant to the discussion at hand. Pirating SE4 is still quite possibly stealing it, even though MM and Shrapnel hardly qualify as corporations.

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Exactly.

Quote:

It still does not change the fact that music etc. can be copyrighted, thus making acquiring it illegally be stealing it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure it does. A new concept akin to copyright could give you the exclusive right to keep it to yourself and not publish it, or to offer it in ways that people can't copy, if you can pull that off somehow without recourse to lawsuits, and to be recognized and rewarded by society for your creation, by mechanics to be agreed upon. But it absolutely changes your right to claim "stealing", because it would no longer considered "property" by anyone. Once you published something in a trivially copiable form, others would have the right to share it around, and you'd be happy, because more people would appreciate your work, and the new mechanism would give you more fame and fortune.

PvK

[ December 04, 2003, 02:01: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

All this cross-posting makes me want to repeat myself... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I will instead just let you catch up PvK. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd say they're relevant in several ways, particularly as I said, as the champions of the concept of "intellectual property". Huge corporations and their bought politicians are the main group behind the movement to try to control and restrict every act of copying data, because they are the dragons sitting on the treasure horde, and as long as they can pull it off, they can charge admission to see the treasure they sit on, even though they didn't create it.

PvK

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

Thanks for mutating the discussion into a whole new direction PvK. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

On the XP search issue: I don't like the "new and improved" XP search dialog; it is at the very least clumsy.

Fortunately, it can be turned back to the earlier style. Just by using the UI you can get it to a slightly better form, or you can download Tweak UI and turn it back to the Win2000 form (which I presume is also the 98 form, testing now)

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Allowed to publish data in copyable form? There IS no form that will let you access the data and still not copy it! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There used to be plenty, because it didn't use to be possible to trivially copy practically any media. That's how the old system made a little sense. Nowadays, it's becoming increasingly easy to copy and distribute data of most kinds, and so that business model is making less and less sense.

There are still some reasonable ways to control content for sale though, some old and some new. For example, performances where the audience comes to a venue, as can be reasonably asked as a condition of attendance, to not make copies. Movie in theaters, plays, concerts, etc. New examples are systems which require a server and generate a unique experience, such as an MMORPG, or a value-added opponent matching service. If publishers are really interested in this sort of business model, they could possibly build in server components to traditionally client-side games, although that could be kind of silly. Imagine for instance that you got the GUI for SE4, but you had to connect to servers at Malfador.com to play the game for more than a few turns.

However, I think most of this kind of business model is a bit silly, particularly in light of the ease of duplication. Society should embrace and benefit from it, and not start inventing perverse ways to try to preserve the old ways when they no longer make any technological sense. There are serious ninnies out there who think the answer is to illegalize devices that can copy data without checking every byte for a copyright stamp, etc. Sounds like from the article I posted a link to, that the CEO of Turner wouldn't mind having your TV watch you to see if you're not watching during TV commericals. Did he read 1984 and think "Mindscreen... hmm... good idea!"???

My suggestion is that we need to find new ways to award creation as a society, that don't involve the absurd and wicked task of trying to control everyone's every data transaction, and that allow us to share all published data freely, and more directly reward the actual creators, and not the bloated leech media cartels.

PvK

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We seemed to be operating under the assumption that it qualified as property, so then the issue became whether acquiring wrongfully was stealing it or not. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif But since music, etc. is property under current models...

Now, whether they should be "property" or not is an entirely different debate. One that I believe you will see I am inclined to agree with you on (at least partially)... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'll move this to the top in case you missed it in all the cross-posting PvK. It also applies to a later post you made. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT: Which is better: XP or 2000? > Another Piracy Discussion
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Do you have any ideas for business models that might work on these principles? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

And oh, if I do make a pile of money from this, don't expect me to give you a cent. Freedom of information and all that, you know. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ December 04, 2003, 08:43: Message edited by: deccan ]