Re: OT: Election 2004
 

Well Said Renegade 13

We are all enjoying what each other post so lets keep it fun and avoid any nastyness. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thank you all for posting and reading with an open mind and with professionalism.

Great Job all.

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

Re:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If I have been guilty of this, I apologize. I get to typing and my fingers runneth faster than my brain sometimes. If I have offended anyone, please accept my apologies...

thanks,

Alarik

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

Well, actually there's only been a couple that seemed a like they might offend someone (not me, but someone!)

And anyways, I'm away from home at school for about 8 hours of the day, and it sure is hard to keep track of the conversation, and to read 3 new pages of Posts! So I have a not-so-vested interest in slowing things down! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Anyways, enough of me babbling, back to the discussion!!

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

Here's my opinion (yet again) on the political situation:

America is not evil. Some of the things that have been done by America, or America's leaders seem to me to be rather shortsighted and unilateral. But I don't think anyone has had evil intentions. Except maybe Bush, but I think he's a bloodthirsty ******.

The US and other powerful countries remind me of a young child, breaking a toy he/she does not understand. I don't think anyone truly weighs the reaction to their actions. Lets take for example the invasion of Iraq. Very foolish. It only made most of the world think of the US as a powerful bully, destroying and pillaging what they want. But it has backfired. Many many troops are dying each week in Iraq, and to what end? To keep militants from taking over the government? Here's a question for you then: when will the coalition ever be able to leave?

The answer is......never. At least, not for a long time. And at the same time, the debt is growing larger and larger. But who's going to demand payment from the worlds most powerful nation.

Anyways, enough about that. Ignore me because I probably don't make any sense anyways. And I'm tired. I can't think when I'm tired.

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Treaty of Versailles could be said to have created more problems than it finished. It completely blamed the Germans for the war even though really Austria could be said to have started it. It punished the Germans severely, such as taking away a lot of its territory, it forced them to pay massive reperations and the germans did not have a say in what would happen. Basically the allies got so carried away with their victory they decided to make the Germans pay. I apologise that I can't find my textbook with the actual cartoon, but there exists an editorial cartoon drawn shortly after the Treaty where the writers of the treaty, such as the prime ministers of the UK and France and the president of the US are walking out of the hall and there is a small child labelled the "class of 39" weeping to one side of the door. The Prime minister of the UK says "can I hear crying?". Even in 1919 people knew the treaty was going to cause trouble and this is 10 years before anyone outside of Germany had heard of Hitler. If anything Hitler was allowed to get away with his demands because allied governments knew they had been too harsh and the German people deserved things back.

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

What was levied against Germany was definitely excessive. It hurt the pride of the German people, and a proud people do not like to be helpless. I mean, they weren't even supposed to have an army!! That was definitly a large part of the cause of WWII but not all by any means. Hitler was a bloodthirsty, racist person, and I think he would have gone on to cause trouble no matter what the situation. The situation in Germany merely provided the ideal stage for Hitler to espouse his crazy ideas to a public ripe for some revenge against their oppressers.

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No! I get really angry when i hear this. The truth about this war needs to come out, and the guilty need to be punished. Bush and Blair are appealing to the short attention-spans of their populations to try to avoid the repercussions of their illegal war- "Oh, the Iraq war, that was so Last year. Let's talk about something else now." How would it be if Nixon had dragged out the Watergate investigations for a year and then said "are you still talking about Watergate? What is done is done. Aren't you bored of that yet? Here, look at this bright shiny thing over here! Look! Look!"

I won't "move forward" until I see B&B in front of some kind of trial or hearing to establish the truth, and if they are found to be guilty of
deceiving their people and causing thousands of deaths under false pretexts and for dubious motivations, they should be kicked out of office at the very least, or even locked up.

[ March 26, 2004, 08:40: Message edited by: dogscoff ]

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah I guess you're right Tesco. The word 'evil' is such an ambiguous term, it means different things to different people. And that's one thing that Bush has done that's really made me mad. He's used the word "evil" to describe anyone who opposes him and his agenda. And yes, some of them undoubtedly are evil. But using the term to blanket those who don't agree with you is just wrong.

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A country or nation cannot be "evil". Whatever this is. Peoples may be, leaders may be, but I don't think you can say USA itself is evil or that every US citizen is evil.

I support you if you say that Bush is a money-greedy warmonger, but this is something totally different. And just my personal opinion, not that I want to start a discussion here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No! I get really angry when i hear this. The truth about this war needs to come out, and the guilty need to be punished. Bush and Blair are appealing to the short attention-spans of their populations to try to avoid the repercussions of their illegal war- "Oh, the Iraq war, that was so Last year. Let's talk about something else now." How would it be if Nixon had dragged out the Watergate investigations for a year and then said "are you still talking about Watergate? What is done is done. Aren't you bored of that yet? Here, look at this bright shiny thing over here! Look! Look!"

I won't "move forward" until I see B&B in front of some kind of trial or hearing to establish the truth, and if they are found to be guilty of
deceiving their people and causing thousands of deaths under false pretexts and for dubious motivations, they should be kicked out of office at the very least, or even locked up. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Amen. I want to see GWB at the least sent to the Hague where he can have Milosovic as a cellmate. And maybe the bulk of his administration should go with him.

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As defined by the dictionary evil, in this context, means "Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant." So I suppose a nation can be evil if it can be said to be morally bad or wrong. The catch, at least from my perspective, is who decides on the morals we use to decide if a person or nation is morally bad? From the point of view of the US Saddam clearly met the definition of evil. Its equally clear though that some Arab nations and sizeable number of Moslem devotees view the US as the evil entity in this equation. I think the best we can say is that a person or country is evil from a given moral perspective.

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

Roanan I was commenting on the word evil in this thread...
I was saying

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

Ah, I had misunderstood this one, Tesco.
By Bush's own definition of evil, of course he is. Now I wonder if he will attack himself, go to Guantanamo, and let himself treat in violation of any international laws concerning the treatment of POWs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sorry BARON, I do NOT agree with you.
And don't understand me wrong, I'm against GWB.

But I life in Holland (The Hague lies in Holland as you probably know). And The U.S. signed a bill 2 years ago (7 june - 2002) to invade every country where American military personal is kept in prisson for war-crimes, And they we're absolutly refering to Holland.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I'm laughing about it but believe me it's no joke, I'm death serious.

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

Was reading this, and seems hard to believe to me...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...tweaponssearch

From here, can't say if it's a manipulated notice, but make fun about this matter, when many people died for this reason (if we admit the President's good faith), doesn't seems right to me.

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

please shorten that with URL tags.

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">WHY?
Really would you prefer to read my "translated" Version from english to spanish and to english back again? In your case, I would prefer to read article!

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

I don't know what you think I'm talking about, but what I'm talking about is </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> blah </pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">which would produce:
blah

helpfull people here told me about it and now I'm being helpfull. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Wow. there actually is a blah.com. wonder what it means in whatever language that was...

[ March 26, 2004, 23:54: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh well... I undestood you wanted to say the people should use less URL links on his Posts...
Thanks for clarify! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

[ March 26, 2004, 23:59: Message edited by: Master Belisarius ]

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

Unfortunatly Master B it's true. It was in very poor taste, and it will very likely hurt him politically. There will be those that attempt to defend the comments as being in the tradition of these press dinners. They will mention that previous presidents have made similerly outrageous jokes. They will point to among other things former President Clintons press dinner comments during the Monica Lewinsky debacle.

IMHO they will be wrong to attempt to do so because there is a major difference.

Clinton could make fun of his sexual dalliances and everyone could laugh. This was because for those that opposed him it at worst it reaffirmed their own already negative image of him, and at best could have cast him in a better light as someone that could make fun of himself. And those that suppoorted him felt the whole situation was stupid anyway and needed to be ridiculed.

On the other hand Bush making fun of not finding WMD's is a lose-lose. Those that oppose him are not going to be impressed by his akward attempt at self-depreciating humor. They will say the issue is too serious to joke about, and they will be right. On the other hand those that support the President will be unable to honestly defend these comments because they don't consider the situation to be one that is appropriate to ridicule.

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

Renegade 13. by the def'n of evil in this thread.

USA is evil . The war of ideology / economy cost millions of peoples lives, proped up dictators, overthrown popular movements.

Look at the actions over the Last 50 years.

P.S. Hitler was the lesser of the two evils in the 30's and 40's. He just moved first and the third french-german war was under way under 100 years.

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for your answer Geo. And by the way, I agree with your view.

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're absolutely correct in your analysis. I wasn't supporting the treaty or saying that it was a good thing. My point was that good or bad the treaty was a legal document and when Hitler decided to break it the allies did have the force of law on their side had they elected to enforce it. Yes, the treaty was a mistake and fortunately we learned from it and we didn't repeat the mistake at the end of WW-II.

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

Truefully I think Bush and his administration did what they thought was best. Your country will decide if this was the right path on the election.

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well said and thank you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Can someone fill me in on the joke?

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

Go here:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?N2A262BD7


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Can someone fill me in on the joke? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: OT: Election 2004
 

It is traditional at this dinner (I think it's annual) for president's to poke fun at themselves. Everyone does it, it's what they do at it.

While I may feel it is in poor taste, the fact that it happened doesn't surprise me.

It's hard to joke about things like that - usually, IIRC, the prez pokes fun at his foibles and problems, but I am not sure if war was ever a topic of jokes at this event in the past.

Adn I;ve had too many beers to do the research at the moment...

thanks,

alarik

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Can someone fill me in on the joke? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">